The True Identity of the Restrainer Finally Revealed

Let me interject omething here.
Αποστασία (apostasia) is etymologically derived from από (from) and στάσις (stand, position).
It has a very negative connotation in Greek (both ancient and modern). It means "betrayal".
It is never used in a positive sense.

Douggg said:

No, that is not the reason for the "falling away". The falling away will be Christians turning from Jesus and thinking that the Antichrist, presented and promoted as the the true messiah by the Jews in the early years of the 7 year 70th week of Daniel 9.

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No, The falling way occurs before the establishment of the satanic religious Antichrist's kingdom according Daniel 2:41-44(Note: it begins with a mix of iron&clay) and Daniel 7:7-27 describe how will be developed and how this satanic period gets to the end here in the Earth, and the prophecy is complemented or goes with Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel 12), in fact the falling way is already running in the churches in whole world, even before establishment of Antichrist's kingdom, and it extends mainly through Internet, as was/is prophesied, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron-1Timothy 4:1-2NIV.

The FALSE and STRANGE EXPRESSION of RAPTURE, very used within the environment of the falling way as doctrine of demons, it must be replaced by the EXPRESSION WAR, yes, WAR. Revelation 16:13-15, as follow:
13 Then I saw three impure/UNCLEAN SPIRITS that looked like frogs;(WHY FROGS?) they came out of the MOUTH of the Dragon(red dragon-Revelation 12:9), out of the mouth of the Beast(MOUTH of the Gentile MAN Beast of sea-Revelation 17:15),and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet)
14 They are demonic spirits that PERFORM SIGNS, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the BATTLE (WAR) on the great Day (Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day) of GOD Almighty. - JESUS - Hebrews 1:8 combined with Revelation 1:8

15 “Look, I come like a thief!
Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked(Genesis 3:8-10) and be shamefully exposed.”

Be careful or else get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

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Oseas said:

No, The falling way occurs before the establishment of the satanic religious Antichrist's kingdom according Daniel 2:41-44(Note: it begins with a mix of iron&clay) and Daniel 7:7-27 describe how will be developed and how this satanic period gets to the end here in the Earth, and the prophecy is complemented or goes with Daniel 9:24-27 and Daniel 12), in fact the falling way is already running in the churches in whole world, even before establishment of Antichrist's kingdom, and it extends mainly through Internet, as was/is prophesied, "The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron-1Timothy 4:1-2NIV.

The FALSE and STRANGE EXPRESSION of RAPTURE, very used within the environment of the falling way as doctrine of demons, it must be replaced by the EXPRESSION WAR, yes, WAR. Revelation 16:13-15, as follow:
13 Then I saw three impure/UNCLEAN SPIRITS that looked like frogs;(WHY FROGS?) they came out of the MOUTH of the Dragon(red dragon-Revelation 12:9), out of the mouth of the Beast(MOUTH of the Gentile MAN Beast of sea-Revelation 17:15),and out of the MOUTH of the false prophet)
14 They are demonic spirits that PERFORM SIGNS, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the BATTLE (WAR) on the great Day (Lord's Day, the seventh and last Day) of GOD Almighty. - JESUS - Hebrews 1:8 combined with Revelation 1:8

15 “Look, I come like a thief!
Blessed is the one who stays awake and remains clothed, so as not to go naked(Genesis 3:8-10) and be shamefully exposed.”

Be careful or else get ready

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS?

THREE UNCLEAN SPIRITS LIKE FROGS - WHY FROGS? Revelation 16:v.13 to 16 1 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the Dragon, and out of the mouth of the Beast, and out of the mouth of the False Prophet. 14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which...

purebibleforum.com

Similarity between passing by the Red Sea and by the Red Dragon

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - PUT THIS IN YOUR MIND ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ - THE RED SEA AND THE RED DRAGON ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I believe you know that the Hebrews had to cross the Red Sea, and walk through a desert, walk until they got to the Promised Land after 40 years of...

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I stand by what I wrote in my post 24. But since as were are living in the last days, I have noticed the past couple of days on You Tube a number people leaving Christianity in videos posted by "Harmonic Atheist".

I made a comment on one of their videos in the comment section below the video...

"The validity of Christianity is found in the end times prophecies in the bible. In Ezekiel 39, the Gog/Magog event, then the 7 years in verses 9-10 (the same seven years of Daniel 9:27), then Armageddon in verses 17-20, in verses 21-29 Jesus's Second Coming."

Douggg said:

The Jewish perceived King of Israel messiah will arrive in Israel following the Gog/Magog event in Ezekiel 39. And be the Antichrist, for three years thereabouts.

Then Daniel 12:1 the great tribulation, the worst time in the history of Israel, and world.

Gog/Magog, then the 7 year verses 9-10 (Daniel 9:27), then Armageddon verses 17-20, in verses 21-29 Jesus Himself speaking in the text at His Second Coming having returned to his earth.

Jewish thinking about Jesus changed, v22. The final redemption, Jewish concept, v28, corresponding to Matthew 24:31, the gathering of the elect from one end of heaven to the other - taken from Deuteronomy 30:3-5 from the outermost parts of heaven.

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Wrong, your speculations and presumptions are good for nothing. There will not be any King in Israel, this is a false interpretation, what REALLY will happen from now on is the MANIFESTATION OF THE FALSE MESSIAH-John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-14, the Beast of the earth, Israel.

What matters and prevails is what JESUS said: John 5:43-47
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:(John 1:11 also confirms what JESUS said), If another shall come in his own name(A FALSE MESSIAH, AN IMPOSTOR, IN FACT THE OWN SATAN INCARNATED, THE MAN OF SIN) him ye will receive. ->This prophecy of my Lord JESUS saying about the satanic false messiah will LITERALLY fulfill in the days ahead, very soon. The MAN of sin already was born DECADES ago. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie. By the way, he might be revealed even now in his time, yes, now is the time of the revelation of the MAN of sin, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from GOD only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Now, even now, from now on, Satan the red Dragon in this time of Apocalypse, will be cast from this heavenly place in Christ-Ephesians 1:3-8- unto the earth. The WAR is against three unclean spirits like frogs that come out of the mouth of the dragon, as is written in Revelation 13:11, and out of the mouth of the beast(Beast of sea-a Gentile Beast), and out of the mouth of the false prophet-here the falso messiah working with the Old Testament as being a prophet, but he is also a false prophet. In fact the false messiah, the MAN of sin, accumulates both satanic activities/functions.

Be careful or else get ready

The Word is GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, and He was made flesh around 2000 years ago. Hebrews 1:1-3

Before the beginning of the last week, week 70th Daniel 9:24-27, MUST be elected the last Pope, the NEST to be elected.

Revelation 13:3-6
3 And I saw one of his (7) heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the Beast. (of sea)

4 And they worshipped the dragon(they worshipped the Devil-the MAN of sin) which gave power unto the Beast(Beast of sea): and they worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make WAR with him? (Michael is able, says the Lord by His Word)

5 And there was given unto him(unto the Beast of sea-a Gentile Beast) a MOUTH speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. (Revelation 16:13)

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against GOD, to blaspheme His name(JESUS), and His tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven-(Ephesians 1:3-8 combined with Philippians 3:20-21).

Be careful or else get ready

Oseas said:

Wrong, your speculations and presumptions are good for nothing. There will not be any King in Israel, this is a false interpretation, what REALLY will happen from now on is the MANIFESTATION OF THE FALSE MESSIAH-John 5:43-47 combined with Revelation 13:11-14, the Beast of the earth, Israel.

What matters and prevails is what JESUS said: John 5:43-47
43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not:(John 1:11 also confirms what JESUS said), If another shall come in his own name(A FALSE MESSIAH, AN IMPOSTOR, IN FACT THE OWN SATAN INCARNATED, THE MAN OF SIN) him ye will receive. ->This prophecy of my Lord JESUS saying about the satanic false messiah will LITERALLY fulfill in the days ahead, very soon. The MAN of sin already was born DECADES ago. Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, and with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the Truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause GOD shall send them STRONG DELUSION, that they should believe a lie. By the way, he might be revealed even now in his time, yes, now is the time of the revelation of the MAN of sin, the old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceives the whole world.

44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from GOD only?

45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, in whom ye trust.

46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me; for he wrote of me.

47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

Now, even now, from now on, Satan the red Dragon in this time of Apocalypse, will be cast from this heavenly place in Christ-Ephesians 1:3-8- unto the earth. The WAR is against three unclean spirits like frogs that come out of the mouth of the dragon, as is written in Revelation 13:11, and out of the mouth of the beast(Beast of sea-a Gentile Beast), and out of the mouth of the false prophet-here the falso messiah working with the Old Testament as being a prophet, but he is also a false prophet. In fact the false messiah, the MAN of sin, accumulates both satanic activities/functions.

Be careful or else get ready

The Word is GOD, the Word is GOD Himself, and He was made flesh around 2000 years ago. Hebrews 1:1-3

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Oseas, the Pope cannot be the Antichrist. Forget about it.

Douggg said:

Oseas, the Pope cannot be the Antichrist. Forget about it.

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Wrong again. It seems you are a follower of him. Reading what you wrote and remain writing, I remember of what my GOD said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17. By the way, you have the idolatry of the croos and the mark of the Beast even in your icone, you confess to be a defender of the Beast of sea-the Pope, the Papacy, a religious and SATANIC MONSTER, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.. Go out in Jesus Name posts #5 and #6

About the Beast of Rome -the Popes - the Papacy -, and of the Roman Catholic Church(former Church of the Lord in Rome-1John 2:18-19), which rides upon the Beast of sea, not me, but the Word of GOD through Paul Apostle, combined with 1John 2:18-19, says by his universal epistle to the church of Rome chapter 1:18-32, as follow:

18 For the WRATH of GOD is revealed from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8 about true believers) against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the Truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them; for GOD hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Spiritual condition of the Apostate Church of Rome and its idolatries -
21 Because that, when they knew GOD, they glorified Him not as GOD, neither were thankful; but BECAME VAIN in their imaginations, and their FOOLISH HEART was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And CHANGED the glory of the uncorruptible GOD into an image made like to corruptible MAN(YEAH, THEY WORSHIP DEFUNCTS WHICH WERE BEATIFIED BY THE POPES, countless of them), and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore GOD also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of GOD into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Mary mother of JESUS, Apostles, and countless DEFUNCTS BEATIFIED BY THE POPES, like Madre Teresa, among countless others), more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (The apostate Church of Rome with her guides and followers corrupted itself exceedingly, and turned morally corrupt , perverted, a DEPRAVED Church since ancient times, today is full of pedophiles, abusers of childs, as happened in Canada, for example)

28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the Judgment of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Be careful or else get ready

Oseas said:

Wrong again. It seems you are a follower of him. Reading what you wrote and remain writing, I remember of what my GOD said: "But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:17. By the way, you have the idolatry of the croos and the mark of the Beast even in your icone, you confess to be a defender of the Beast of sea-the Pope, the Papacy, a religious and SATANIC MONSTER, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.. Go out in Jesus Name posts #5 and #6

About the Beast of Rome -the Popes - the Papacy -, and of the Roman Catholic Church(former Church of the Lord in Rome-1John 2:18-19), which rides upon the Beast of sea, not me, but the Word of GOD through Paul Apostle, combined with 1John 2:18-19, says by his universal epistle to the church of Rome chapter 1:18-32, as follow:

18 For the WRATH of GOD is revealed from heaven(heaven?Ephesians 1:3-8 about true believers) against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the Truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of GOD is manifest in them; for GOD hath shewed it unto them.
20 For the invisible things of Him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

Spiritual condition of the Apostate Church of Rome and its idolatries -
21 Because that, when they knew GOD, they glorified Him not as GOD, neither were thankful; but BECAME VAIN in their imaginations, and their FOOLISH HEART was darkened.
22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,
23 And CHANGED the glory of the uncorruptible GOD into an image made like to corruptible MAN(YEAH, THEY WORSHIP DEFUNCTS WHICH WERE BEATIFIED BY THE POPES, countless of them), and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore GOD also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
25 Who changed the truth of GOD into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature (Mary mother of JESUS, Apostles, and countless DEFUNCTS BEATIFIED BY THE POPES, like Madre Teresa, among countless others), more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause GOD gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. (The apostate Church of Rome with her guides and followers corrupted itself exceedingly, and turned morally corrupt , perverted, a DEPRAVED Church since ancient times, today is full of pedophiles, abusers of childs, as happened in Canada, for example)

28 And even as they did not like to retain GOD in their knowledge, GOD gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,
30 Backbiters, haters of GOD, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,
31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the Judgment of GOD, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Be careful or else get ready

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To become the Antichrist, phony King of Israel thought-to-be messiah, the person must be a Jew and his religion Judaism.

The Pope does not qualify. Forget about the Pope becoming the Antichrist.

YaakovBenYochanan said:

The pope will cooperate with this antichrist though, do you agree?

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No, the pope will not agree to the notion that the Antichrist is the true Jewish messiah.

In spite of all its faults. the Vatican maintains that Jesus is the messiah, and is God. When the Antichrist eventually becomes the beast-king who will claim to be God - the Vatican will oppose that claim. The Vatican, the woman turned harlot in Revelation 17, will be destroyed at the time when the Antichrist becomes the beast, supported by the ten EU kings.

In Revelation 17: 16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

The Vatican will be destroyed, burnt to the ground, and that will be last of it and the Popes, Cardinals, and Bishops, making up it structure.

Dan Perez said:

And the wording of 2 Thess 2:3 reads , THE FALLING AWAY , which is the Greek word APOSTASIA , which means a DEPARTURE and APOSTASIA is in the Acts 21:21 ,

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And its in verb form in other places, is the Departure a Faith or a FLIGHT. Its easy to prove.

Mr. Ice has pointed out that the Greek noun, apostasia, is used only twice in the New Testament. The other occurrence is in Acts 21:21 where it states that an accusation was made against Paul that he was “teaching all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake [apostasia] Moses.”

The word is used in verb form a total of 15 times in the New Testament, and only three of these have anything to do with a departure from the faith (Luke 8:13, 1 Timothy 4:1, and Hebrews 3:12). In other settings, the word is used for departing from iniquity (2 Timothy 2:19), departing from ungodly men (1 Timothy 6:5), departing from the temple (Luke 2:27), departing from the body (2 Corinthians 12:8), and departing from persons (Acts 12:10 and Luke 4:13).

Here is what makes zero sense to me. What is the chapter about? The Thessalonians not FEARING that they are in the day if the Lord. And Paul BESEECES them (asks URGENTLY) that they not fear, by way of THIS in the very first verse, BY WHAT? The GATHERING UNTO Christ Jesus. This is very sim-le stuff you guys make complex by overthinking it, or following men who overthink it. Nowhere in the whole chapter can we see one word talking about FAITH. So, the Church is DEPARTING a STANDING on this earth, not a Faith which is never even hinted at.

Dan Perez said:

# 2 And there is no Greek word for RAPTURE , PERIOD !!

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Iseus is how Jesus is spelled in the Greek, in Hebrew its Yeshua (Salvation) well, Jesus, Ieous and Yeshus all mean the same thing. In the Greek the word used was a Snatching Away (Harpazo) in the Latin Vulgate they used Rapio, there is where the English calls it the Rapture. Same meaning n three Languages, just like Jesus is different but means the same. I bet you have never did an in depth word study while listening to these guys have you? You just take it by faith what people say is factual. I go to the holy bible, then the Greek & Hebrew then I compare all things. I don't listen to what Billy Bob or Hector tells me per se.

Jesus is not in the Greek or Latin Vulgate either, see hoe faulty that thinking is?

Dan Perez said:

# 3 AND in 2 Thess 2:1 is the word COMING // PAROUSIA and that means that Christ is coming back for us .

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To Rapture us to Heaven where we Marry the Lamb Jesus and stay in the Fathers mansion (rooms) for 7 years, just lie the Jewish Bridegroom & Bride stay in the wedding chambers for 7 days.

Dan Perez said:

# 4 And in 1 Thess 4:17 you will see the words CAUGHT UP // HARPAZO is in the Greek , FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and it means Christ is the one coming to take us away .

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No kidding, and that is how we DEPART this earth just like 2 Thess. 2:3 says.

Dan Perez said:

#5 I believe that the RETRAINER IS Christ and when the DEPARTURE should come FIRST , and the MAN OF SIN , should be REVEALED , the son of destruction ,

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Its the Holy Spirit working through the Church my friend.

Oseas said:

FIRST BEAST- THE BEAST OF SEA - RFEVELATION 13:1-10

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea(John was a citzen of Israel), and saw a Beast rise up out of the sea (a Gentile Beast=SEA means waters=>peoples , and nations, and multitudes of all tongues) having seven heads(7 mounts) and ten horns(Daniel 7:7), and upon his (10) horns ten crowns(title of nobility), and upon his (7) heads the NAME of blasphemy. (What kind of blasphemy's NAME)

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The seven heads are 7 kings, Revelation 17:10, of the Julio Claudian Caesars. The Caesars claimed to be deity.

Oseas said:

3 And I saw one of his (7) heads (in my view will be South America) as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed (was healed because Satan incarnated, a former Cherub, son of perdition-2 Thes. 2:3-4 combined with Revelation 12:3-4) gave him (gave to the Beast of sea) his Power, and his Seat (in Jerusalem), and great Authority, and all the world wondered after the Beast.

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The seven heads are 7 kings, Revelation 17:10.

Here is how the healed head becomes the beast.... transitions from being the Antichrist... to being the revealed man of sin.... to being the beast.

Oseas said:

4 And they(all the world) worshipped the dragon(worshipped Satan incarnated, a former Cherub, son of perdition-2 Thes. 2:3-4 combined with Revelation 12:3-4) which gave power unto the Beast(gave power unto the Gentile Beast of sea): and they worshipped the Beast, saying, Who is like unto the Beast? who is able to make WAR with him? (Michael is able - Revelation 12)

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No, Satan will be worshiped, unknowingly, because he will incarnate the statue image of the beast that the false prophet has made. On my chart.... And below it, my illustration, of the Satan being exposed, and the statue image turned to ashes. Oseas, go read Ezekiel 28:16-19.

A common view, exemplified by Tertullian's opinion, is that which restrains was the Roman Empire. Incidentally, Tertullian also interpreted the apostasia as referring to the falling away or collapse of the Roman state.

When the Western Roman Empire fell, it affected people pretty hard. St. Augustine had to address the sacking of Rome in his City of God, to remind Christians that God's kingdom and human kingdoms are not the same. Of course, the Roman Empire didn't collapse with the fall of Rome, the Roman Empire technically didn't end until the fall of Constantinople in 1453.

Between the fall of Rome and the fall of Constantinople, especially with the rise of Islam and Muslim conquests, lots of diverse views show up trying align things in Scripture with then contemporary events.

With the Roman Empire gone in the 15th century, and thus many long-standing interpretations being hard or impossible to retain, have given way over the centuries to new interpretations.

Thus leaving the question of that which restrains one of the still more controversial and hotly debated subjects in biblical study. The question of what St. Paul is talking about here remains allusive.

As for the apostasia, Tertullian viewed it as the end of the Roman state, a more common view especially (at least as far as I've been able to tell) later centuries the more familiar view of some kind problem in the Church is understood. A falling away from the faith. But, again, we aren't entirely sure what Paul had in mind here.

However we have some possible precedent in the use of this term in the Septuagint, where it speaks of rebellion against God, a forasking of the things of God. So the LXX translates meshubah ("turning away" "turning one's back on") as apostasia in Jeremiah 2:19. In 2 Chronicles 29:19 we read that King Ahaz had spurned and rejected the sacred utensils of the Temple, the LXX renders zanah "to spurn" "to put away" "to do away with" as apostasia.

In its most literal etymological sense apostasia is literally apo (apart) stasia (standing), "to stand apart". And so carries ideas of defection, rebellion, turning away, abandoning, departing by rejection. And as this term, in biblical language, gets used many times in the Septuagint to convey ideas of rejecting, spurning, turning away from, and abandoning God and His ways that makes the idea of apostasy--falling away, in the sense of a departure from the faith--the most likely meaning.

I am unsure why Tertullian viewed it as the collapse of the Roman state, except that perhaps Tertullian may have been relying on Old Latin translations. The Vulgata, which was intended to replace the Old Latin translations in the Western Church, uses discessio to translate apostasia, which does mean "to withdraw" or "separation"; if this is perhaps what Tertullian was more familiar with then he may have therefore understood this as the withdrawal of the Roman state from world affairs, ergo its dissolution or giving way to successor powers.

I am, however, partial to understanding that Paul refers to some kind of turning away from the faith. I am unsure, and don't have much ground at present to speculate what Paul may have meant by that which restrains.

What can be safely said is that Paul wanted the Thessalonians to remain secure in the faith they had received, and not be taken captive by false teachers or false teaching which, given what we see elsewhere in Paul's writings concerning heretics such as Alexander, Hymenaeus, and Philetus, there were those claiming the resurrection had already taken place and some missed it. Paul wants to be clear that the resurrection, at Christ's coming (c.f. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), will be loud and obvious and they didn't and weren't going to miss it--and by extension, we likewise shall not miss it. It's going to be loud, it's going to be obvious: When Christ the King returns in glory, there won't be any doubt--because graves will literally become empty, and the Faithful shall meet the returning glorious Lord in the air as He returns.

-CryptoLutheran

YaakovBenYochanan said:

What is restraining our rapture unto Jesus is thus the following criteria: there has got to be a falling away first, and the Antichrist must be revealed. These criteria are "The restrainer" preventing our rapture!

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Paul says nothing about "the Antichrist" here or anywhere else in his writings. He only says here, "the Son of Perdition." Beware of adding presumptive words into the Scriptures, always.

YaakovBenYochanan said:

If you have a different explanation of great-falling-away, I would gladly hear.

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We need look no further than The Book of Jude, which infallibly documents the then present arrival/fulfillment of the Falling away Paul had earlier prophesied.

Fisherking said:

The first 7 English translations said DEPARTURE not Falling Away, the Latin Vulgate around for 1000 years before the KJV (English Church) seemingly tried to smear the RCC by calling it a Departure from the Faith (falling away) us (DOTL or God's Wrath) can not come until BOTH THESE THINGS HAPEN, 1.) The Church must DEPART (see vs. 1 a Gathering unto Christ is what's being pointed unto) this earth, or our STANDING on this earth. 2.) The Anti-Christ must be on the scene BEFORE the DOTL or God's Wrath falls, and since he makes a 7 year Agreement (Israel joins the E.U., ....mark my words.... ) with Israel, that has to happen before the middle of the week wrath of God falls. So, YES............Both of those things must come to pass before God's Wrath falls so he's telling the Thessalonians to STOP FEARING you are not in the DOTL nor can you be !!!

So, when does the A.C. go forth conquering? After the Church DEPARTS, the Holy Spirit blocks him until we are gone. Its that simple, don't overthink it.

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Good data, my friend.

Here are 2 Th 2:1-3 from early Bibles. These three verses clearly say what motivated Paul to write them. His Thessalonian flock received a fraudulent letter, made to appear to be from Paul, saying that they had missed the rapture and were in the Trib. Paul corrects his flock in that the Trib hasn't come because the rapture of the Church is first.

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

Dan Perez said:

And the wording of 2 Thess 2:3 reads , THE FALLING AWAY , which is the Greek word APOSTASIA , which means a DEPARTURE and APOSTASIA is in the Acts 21:21 ,

# 2 And there is no Greek word for RAPTURE , PERIOD !!

# 3 AND in 2 Thess 2:1 is the word COMING // PAROUSIA and that means that Christ is coming back for us .

# 4 And in 1 Thess 4:17 you will see the words CAUGHT UP // HARPAZO is in the Greek , FUTURE TENSE , PASSIVE VOICE and it means Christ is the one coming to take us away .

#5 I believe that the RETRAINER IS Christ and when the DEPARTURE should come FIRST , and the MAN OF SIN , should be REVEALED , the son of destruction ,

dan p

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Dan, this is definitive proof that the pre-Trib rapture of the Church will be the next prophesied event to happen:

In the 2A (2nd Advent), Jesus fulfills a descension from Heaven to Earth. A main feature of that descension is it will be in full view of the people on Earth (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). There will be billions of unbelievers on Earth who will see Jesus, and they will mourn (Matt 24:30). Jesus will also not be by Himself (Matt 24:31).

Acts 1:11 holds a very important guideline for the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ. Here is the complete verse 11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Acts 1:11 is about how ("the same way") that the NEXT return of Jesus will occur. That return must follow the reverse-sequence of His ascension. The ascension started when Jesus was in the view of believers, only (His disciples) (Acts 1:9). He ascended by Himself. He was then behind clouds, then in Heaven.

The reverse-sequence will dictate the way of His NEXT return. Jesus will descend from Heaven by Himself, behind clouds (out of view of the wicked world below), then only into the view of believers. That is the reverse-sequence that aligns with Acts 1:11. Again, Acts 1:11 is about "the way" Jesus ascended, not wherefrom.

It is impossible for that reverse-sequence to apply to the 2A. The 2A starts with Jesus ON CLOUDS and in full view of the whole world (Matt 24:30 and Rev 1:7). Therefore, right at the start of the 2A, Jesus will not be in alignment with Acts 1:11. The full proof of His misalignment with Acts 1:11, Jesus will be ON CLOUDS (not behind clouds); He's not by Himself (Matt 24:31); and He will be in full view of billions of unbelievers. That's all perfect for the 2A, but it doesn't align with Acts 1:11. Therefore, it is Scripturally impossible for the 2A to be the NEXT return of Jesus Christ.

Only the pre-Trib rapture fits the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. That reverse sequence would be: descension by Himself, behind clouds, then only into the view of believers.

In 1 Th 4:16, Jesus descends by Himself. Verse 16 very importantly makes it crystal clear that Jesus will descend by Himself because He ascended by Himself (Acts 1:9). In 1 Th 4:17, we won't see Jesus until we pass through clouds and meet Him in the air. This is very important: we have to pass through clouds before we can see Jesus. That substantiates the fact that Jesus is BEHIND CLOUDS in His descension, exactly as dictated by the reverse-sequence of Acts 1:11. In the pre-Trib rapture, Jesus will descend by Himself, behind clouds and into the view of believers, only.

Those are the Scriptural facts of the NEXT coming of Jesus Christ.

YaakovBenYochanan said:

I was just rethinking 2 thessalonians 2 last night. Thinking about the word "falling away" exactly as dscribed, that those who believe in a pre-trib rapture will say "falling away" of the Church" actualy means their rapture into heaven. And here I read your post.

I will study the source text of 2 thessalonians 2. There are a lot of added words for clarification in the translation. This seems like there was disputes over the intent of the writer. Very small differences can change the meaning.


I know church tradition talks of roman civil order being the restrainer. But this explanation might have well surfaced to appease the roman government. I don't feel this makes sense, as that government and the roman state church is the source of the heaviest persecution throughout history. Foxes book of martyrs is a good place to start.

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This might help. These are three verses (2 Th 2:1-3) cherry picked from early Bibles. Each verse clearly communicates what motivated Paul to write it. His Thessalonian flock was deceived by a fraudulent letter they received, made to appear to be from Paul, stating that they had missed the rapture and were now in Trib. Paul then corrects his flock that the Trib won't come until after the rapture.

2 Th 2:1 (Geneva Bible): Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,

2 Th 2:2 (NLT): Don’t be so easily shaken or alarmed by those who say that the day of the Lord has already begun. Don’t believe them, even if they claim to have had a spiritual vision, a revelation, or a letter supposedly from us.

2 Th 2:3 (Geneva Bible): Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

The ending words to verse 3 are about Rev 6:1-2. That is the first seal judgment and it starts the Trib. Therefore, in 2 Th 2:1-3, Paul is saying the rapture comes before the Trib, and then the Trib is started by Rev 6:1-2.

YaakovBenYochanan said:

Now we know! First the falling away, and the son of perdition must come.

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Hi @YaakovBenYochanan and everyone else. I just joined because this thread caught my eye.

Anyhow, I wanted to share my opinion on what the 'falling away' is. I believe an important clue is in this verse...

2 Thessalonians 2:2
"That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand."

See the word 'shaken' in the above verse?

We see it here in association with the stars falling...

Matthew 24:29
"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken"

I believe that the 'falling stars' are Angels.

We see this theme in Daniel...

Daniel 8:10
And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

There are other verses I could post but basically, I believe that the 'falling away' could be a reference to fallen angels.

OK. Have a good day!