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The trinity

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LightOfEyes

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In the 'Gospel according to Mark', chapter 12, verses 28-34, we are able to read one of the statements, made by Christ himself, which categorically denies the doctrine of the trinity:

"Then one of the lawyers, who had been listening to these discussions and noted how well he answered, came forward and asked him, 'Which commandment is the first of all?'

Jesus answered, 'The first is, "Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is the only Lord; love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength."

The second is this: "Love your neighbour as yourself."

'Well said, Master. Your are right in saying that God is one and beside him there is no other. And to love him with all your heart, all your understanding, and all your strength, and to love your neighbour as yourself - that is far more than any burnt offerings.' When Jesus saw how sensibly he answered, he said to him: 'You are not far from the Kingdom of God'."

Here we have a statement by Jesus (on him be peace) declaring "God to be One". Not two; not three; but ONE!

Then there is the lawyer; a man well acquainted with 'divine law', that is the laws revealed to the Prophets (on them be peace). This lawyer, with his knowledge of the Scriptures, was already aware of the truth, that "there is only One God". The reply given by Jesus (on him be peace) to his question, was the already confirmed revelation inspired to the Prophet Moses (on him be peace). [Deuteronomy 6, verses 4-5]

This message to mankind resounds throughout the Scriptures: "You have had sure proof that the Lord is God; there is no other". [Deuteronomy 4, verse 35]

"This day, then, be sure and take to heart that the Lord is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other." [Deuteronomy 4, verse 39]

"I am the Lord, there is no other; there is no god beside me... so that men from the rising and setting sun may know that there is none but I: I am the Lord, there is no other." [Book of Isaiah 45, verses 5-6]

All the above quotations proclaim in plain, simple language that the people of the east and the west are required to believe that: "There is no ilaah (god) worthy of worship except Allah"

"O people of the Scripture! Do not exceed the limits in your religion, nor say of Allah aught except the truth. The Messiah 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), was (no more than) a Messenger of Allah and His Word ("Be!" - and he was) which He bestowed on Maryam and a spirit (Ruuh) created by Him; so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not: 'Three (trinity)!' Cease! (It is) better for you. For Allah is (the only) One Ilaah (God), Glory be to Him (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belongs all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is All-Sufficient as a Disposer of affairs." [Al-Qur'an, 4:171]

Those 'Christians' who uphold and protect the doctrine of the trinity by declaring that God is three in one and one in three are surely the misguided and misguiders of people. Their children are taught basic arithmetic in school where they learn that one = one. They are then asked to accept that three = one and one = three! What blatant denial of truth! Their constant denial - covering up - cannot make something - in this case the trinity- which is based on falsity become the truth. What is false, is false. It doesn't matter how many coatings or layers of denial are applied. It will always remain false. We as Muslims, Insha' Allah, understand the basic difference between that which is Halal and that which is Haram. Those proponents of the trinity are no longer able to make that distinction.

[SIZE=-1]"Say 'O people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians)! You have nothing (as regards Guidance) till you act according to the Tauraat, the Injeel, and what has (now) been sent down to you from your Lord (the Qur'an).' Verily, that which has been sent down to you from your Lord increases in many of them their obstinate rebellion and disbelief. So be not sorrowful over the people who disbelieve." [Al-Qur'an, 5:68][/SIZE]


"And (remember) when Allah will say (on the Day of Resurrection): 'O 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) ! Did you say unto men: Worship me and my mother as two gods besides Allah?' He will say: 'Glory be to you! It was not for me to say that which I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would have surely known it. You know what is in my inner-self though I do not know what is in Yours, truly, You, only You, are the All-Knower of all that is hidden and unseen.'
[SIZE=-1]'Never did I say to them aught except what You (Allah) did command me to say: "Worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them, but when You took me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a witness to all things'. [/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Al-Qur'an, 5: 116-117] [/SIZE]


Peace.
 

arunma

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I see you've chosen to debate from the Bible. Before I can answer you, please answer one of my questions. Islam makes the claim that the Bible is corrupted, and yet you are quoting from it. So please tell me: which parts of the Bible are true, and which are false? Please also give me your justification for whatever discernment you make. It would be unfruitful for me to spend time building an argument around any Biblical text which you consider to be untrue.
 
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LightOfEyes

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arunma said:
I see you've chosen to debate from the Bible. Before I can answer you, please answer one of my questions. Islam makes the claim that the Bible is corrupted, and yet you are quoting from it. So please tell me: which parts of the Bible are true, and which are false? Please also give me your justification for whatever discernment you make. It would be unfruitful for me to spend time building an argument around any Biblical text which you consider to be untrue.

Peace be upon you brother,
Muslims do believe in the bible which has been revealed to prophet Jesus pbuh
But we believe that it was corrupted by men through centuries. And it might have some verses that have some truth, but since it has been changed by men we can’t consider it God’s words.

Please read this link:

What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?
http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm
 
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LightOfEyes

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Fares said:
This is the 3 debate you open on the subject !

No it’s the first thread.


Fares said:
We showed it is right, you refuse to accept and beleive in it !

No you did not.


Fares said:
Dont choose the parts that are in your advantage !
Enought !
Why is t because prove me right!?
 
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We Christians only say there is ONLY ONE GOD! When will you get this into your head!

fine, you've reduced me to this:

Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God!

I hope it's now clear to you, for the last time will I state that.

The Trinity isn't 3 Gods, it is One God, and One God only.
 
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LightOfEyes

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S Walch said:
We Christians only say there is ONLY ONE GOD! When will you get this into your head!

fine, you've reduced me to this:

Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God!

I hope it's now clear to you, for the last time will I state that.

The Trinity isn't 3 Gods, it is One God, and One God only.

And who are he, the father or the son Jesus or the holy spirit. there are three not one.
 
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DjDan

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S Walch said:
We Christians only say there is ONLY ONE GOD! When will you get this into your head!

fine, you've reduced me to this:

Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God!

I hope it's now clear to you, for the last time will I state that.

The Trinity isn't 3 Gods, it is One God, and One God only.

Walch, forgive my Islamic brother for his supposed ignorance... but probably his confusion comes in that NO-ONE can actually explain this concept of the "Trinity". Probably, the explanations he has been given have so confused him to think... well... anything and everything. The trinity is one... yet it is three. And though they are three... yet they are one. Doesn't take a genious to work out that the whole trinity thing is insane! It doesn't take a bible scholar to work out that it's not even taught in the Bible!

Lightofeyes.. no matter how clearly you state it... a True-Believing-'Christian' will not accept the facts you place before them. Instead they fall back on the all-powerful....irrefutable answer..... of saying.... "It is inexplicable! It is a mystery of God! And isn't God so wonderful??" ;)

(which basically means... they actually have no way of explaining it.... because it is all rubbish... a man-made concept. A tragedy!)
 
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Iron Lion

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S Walch said:
We Christians only say there is ONLY ONE GOD! When will you get this into your head!

fine, you've reduced me to this:

Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God, Christians believe in only one God!

I hope it's now clear to you, for the last time will I state that.

The Trinity isn't 3 Gods, it is One God, and One God only.


Its amazing how many people assume we dont even know what we believe in just because they cant understand it.
 
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Iron Lion

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DjDan said:
(which basically means... they actually have no way of explaining it.... because it is all rubbish... a man-made concept. A tragedy!)


thats funny, when i let the Mormon missionarys into my house a while back this was one thing i asked them. Do you believe in the trinity. They said yes. Did they lie to me just to try get me to join the church?


Im confused now :help:
 
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DjDan

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Did you specifically ask them "Do you believe in the Trinity?" I don't know why they would have answered 'yes'. In any case... a "yes" answer to that question is wrong. We believe God the father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. Not 'ONE' in the sense that the trinity claims. But ONE in purpose. 'A Godhead'... not 'A God'. We worship one God, God our father, the father of Jesus Christ.... :thumbsup:

We definately do not believe in the trinity. Maybe these missionaries were referring to the "godhead".... i'm sorry for their error in answering you.
 
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Iron Lion

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DjDan said:
Did you specifically ask them "Do you believe in the Trinity?" I don't know why they would have answered 'yes'. In any case... a "yes" answer to that question is wrong. We believe God the father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are three distinct persons. Not 'ONE' in the sense that the trinity claims. But ONE in purpose. 'A Godhead'... not 'A God'. We worship one God, God our father, the father of Jesus Christ.... :thumbsup:

We definately do not believe in the trinity. Maybe these missionaries were referring to the "godhead".... i'm sorry for their error in answering you.


yeah well they didnt go as far as to explain it in detail. They did clearly say yes though. But they werent clear in explainingt anything as far as saying "yes we believe in father son holy ghost. It seems like they just said yes to win me over.

So do mormons believe that Jesus is God? or a God? or just the son of God? Because from what ive read you believe that Jesus created the earth. Yet the bible clearly states that God created the bible.
 
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Kris_J

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LightOfEyes said:
Peace be upon you brother,
Muslims do believe in the bible which has been revealed to prophet Jesus pbuh
But we believe that it was corrupted by men through centuries. And it might have some verses that have some truth, but since it has been changed by men we can’t consider it God’s words.

Please read this link:

What parts of the Bible do Muslims believe are closest to the Truth?
[URL="http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm[/quote] Do"]http://www.answering-christianity.com/warning.htm
[/URL]Can you be specific about which parts of the Bible is Truth in your view? ...or don't you know?
 
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LightOfEyes

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Kris_J said:
Can you be specific about which parts of the Bible is Truth in your view? ...or don't you know?

Peace be upon you brother.

Actually Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran. The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Manuscripts in the different canons and to filter out Truth from falsehood in them. Allah Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (The Noble Quran, 7:157)"

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment be tween right and wrong). (The Noble Quran, 3:3)"

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (The Noble Quran, 5:48)"

"That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. (The Noble Quran, 35:31)"
 
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Kris_J

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LightOfEyes said:
Peace be upon you brother.

Actually Muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran. The parts that contradict the Noble Quran are not the Truth:

The Noble Quran came to confirm Truth that exists in the Manuscripts in the different canons and to filter out Truth from falsehood in them. Allah Almighty never claimed that the bible is fully and 100% Divine. Islam is a witness on the Bible. It filters out the truth from falsehood and corruption in the Bible. The Noble Quran only recognizes the Bible as a HISTORY BOOK with errors and man's alteration in it. Anything that agrees 100% with Islam is valid, and anything else that has even the slightest disagreement with Islam is discarded:

"Those who follow the apostle, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper. (The Noble Quran, 7:157)"

"It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment be tween right and wrong). (The Noble Quran, 3:3)"

"To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; (The Noble Quran, 5:48)"

"That which We have revealed to thee of the Book is the Truth,- confirming what was (revealed) before it: for God is assuredly- with respect to His Servants - well acquainted and Fully Observant. (The Noble Quran, 35:31)"
& which parts are those exactly?
 
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LightOfEyes

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DjDan said:
Walch, forgive my Islamic brother for his supposed ignorance... but probably his confusion comes in that NO-ONE can actually explain this concept of the "Trinity". Probably, the explanations he has been given have so confused him to think... well... anything and everything. The trinity is one... yet it is three. And though they are three... yet they are one. Doesn't take a genious to work out that the whole trinity thing is insane! It doesn't take a bible scholar to work out that it's not even taught in the Bible!

Lightofeyes.. no matter how clearly you state it... a True-Believing-'Christian' will not accept the facts you place before them. Instead they fall back on the all-powerful....irrefutable answer..... of saying.... "It is inexplicable! It is a mystery of God! And isn't God so wonderful??" ;)

(which basically means... they actually have no way of explaining it.... because it is all rubbish... a man-made concept. A tragedy!)

Yahh.

When GOD was in the garden of Gethsemane he fell on his face and Prayed to another GOD asking the other GOD :

Mt 26:39 O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
This GOD did not function according to his will but to that of the Other GOd. His life was in the hands of the other GOD. This GOD sweated Blood and sweat(like a human) while Praying to that GOD.
In the end that GOD did not listen to the Prayers of this GOD and this GOD was killed by the Creation that the other GOD created. And this GOD even called the other GOD

Mt 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

But the other GOD ignored him and he said it is finished and died.


lol.

Peace.
 
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LightOfEyes

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Kris_J said:
& which parts are those exactly?

The parts of the Bible that agree with the Noble Quran.

I can give some examples


Mark 12:28-29 - God is one.
Exodus 33:20, John 1:18, 1 Timothy 6:16 - No one saw God.
Matthew 14:23, 19:13, 26:39, 27:46, 26:42-44 - Jesus prayed.
Matthew 24:36 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Matthew 26:39 - Jesus and God had different wills.
Matthew 28:18 - All power was given to Jesus.
Mark 1:35, 6:46, 14:35-36 - Jesus prayed.
Mark 10:17-18 and Luke 18:18-19 - Jesus denied divinity.
Mark 13:32 - Jesus was not all-knowing.
Mark 16:19 and Luke 22:69 - Jesus at the right hand of God.
Luke 3:21, 5:16, 6:12, 9:18, 9:28, 11:1-4, 22:41 - Jesus prayed.
Luke 7:16, 13:33, 24:18-19 - Jesus was a prophet.
Luke 10:21 - Jesus gave thanks.
Luke 23:46 - The spirit of Jesus was commended to God.
John 4:19 - Jesus was a prophet.
John 4:23-24 - Worship in spirit and truth.
John 14:28 - One was greater than the other.
John 5:19, 5:30, 7:28, 8:28 - Jesus was helpless.
John 5:30 and 6:38 - Jesus and God had different wills.
John 5:31-32 - Jesus' witness was not true.
John 6:11 and 11:41-42 - Jesus gave thanks.
John 6:32 - The Father was the provider, not the son.
John 7:29, 16:5, 16:28 - Jesus was from God.
John 7:16, 12:49, 14:24, 17:14 - Jesus' words were not his.
John 8:42 - Jesus did not come of himself.
John 10:29 - "My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all."
John 14:1 - Jesus said, "...believe also in me."
John 14:16, 17:1, 17:9, 17:11, 17:15 - Jesus prayed.
John 14:31 and 15:10 - Jesus followed commands.
John 17:6-8 - "I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me."
John 20:17 - Jesus had a god.
Romans 8:34 - Jesus was an intercessor.
Isaiah 42:8 - Do not praise and worship images.
Isaiah 45:1 - "Anointed" does not mean "God".

Peace.
 
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