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The Trinity

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thereselittleflower

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Gwenyfur said:
So I'm going to hell because....I'm jewish, and believe in the same that the apostles did....BEFORE the catholic church was even founded.....

....
....

interesting... but sorry not buying it
Click to expand...


If you're not Trinitarian, why are you posting in GT?






Peace to all
 
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Gwenyfur

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thereselittleflower said:
If you're not Trinitarian, why are you posting in GT?






Peace to all
Click to expand...
ummmmm Messianic Jewish, as well as bloodline jewish...
Confusing I know...

Y'shua is Messiah, the Son of the Father, led by the Spirit
 
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thereselittleflower

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mutzrein said:
Oh darn! So, if for arguments sake someone was to say that they did not believe that Jesus was God, is there going to be outright condemnation to the point of saying that they cannot be saved?
Click to expand...

We don't know who will or wil not be saved if they are not Christian . . .


But believing that Jesus is God is the core doctrine of Christianity.


Is this something you have difficulty with believing? Is this something you want to believe but have a hard time belieivng it? Or is it something you reject?




Peace to all
 
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thereselittleflower

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Diane .. how is TRUTH not binding on us?





One doesn't have to believe that Jesus is Fully God to be a Christian?


 
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thereselittleflower

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Gwenyfur said:
ummmmm Messianic Jewish, as well as bloodline jewish...
Confusing I know...

Y'shua is Messiah, the Son of the Father, led by the Spirit
Click to expand...

I know you are messianic Jew . . .


But that is not what I asked you . .




So .. are you Trinitarian as well?



Peace to all
 
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thereselittleflower said:
If you're not Trinitarian, why are you posting in GT?
Click to expand...
I don't mean to talk around Gwenyfur, but I'm not certain whether she is saying that she is not a Trinitarian, or not a Vatican Catholic.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Scholar in training said:
I don't mean to talk around Gwenyfur, but I'm not certain whether she is saying that she is not a Trinitarian, or not a Vatican Catholic.
Click to expand...

Maybe I misunderstood . . . but this is how I understood it in the context of this thread, since it is about the Trinity.

It is common misconception that the Catholic Church didn't start until Constantine.

the Council of Nicea occured after Constantine's conversion. . . So the declaration of the Trinity by Council occured "after" the Catholic Church came into existence ACCORDING TO some who misunderstand the origins of the Catholic Church.

So given those words in her post, taken in the context of the topic of this thread, and given that many Messianic Jews are NOT Trinitarian, it seemed to me she was rejecting what the Catholic Church has proclaimed as true after this supposed point in history, which would inlcude the Nicene Creed and its contents.

Since the Trinity was not declared by council before Constantine, then this would include a rejection of the Council of Nicea and its purpose.


Perhaps I misunderstood, and this rejection does not include the Trinity doctrine which is God is Three Persons, One Being, Co-equal . . . . . .



Gwenyfur, could you clarify what you meant then?




Peace to all
 
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Gwenyfur

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Sorry y'all I got sidetracked with work

What I mean is, I am of jewish decent, I can claim citizenship in Israel, I am of Abraham's bloodlines...
I also believe that Y'shua is the only begotten Son of the Living G-d, whose Spirit indwells the elect who have believed on His name, in His saving Grace, and accepted the gift of his Salvation and atonement for my sins...

Yes, I believe in the Trinity...that's a given Every time the L_RD is referenced in the OT it's a reference to the triune G-d.

You have to believe that Y'shua and the Father and the Spirit are one and the same, yet separate to be saved by His grace...

I hope I'm clear enough now....

LOL and no I'm not catholic...ROFL
 
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thereselittleflower

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Hi Gwenyfur . . thanks for explaining and I am sorry I misunderstood . . . I remember being in some threads in the messianic forum last year, and one was a poll regarding the Trinity and there were many who rejected it.

I hope you understand how I misunderstood your words in the overall context.



Again, please accept my apologies.




Peace to all
 
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Gwenyfur

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Yes it is sorrowful but true that many messianics refuse the concept of the triune G-d. I don't....I refuse to G-d in a box and deny taht His Son was Him manifest in the flesh, yet separate...same as the Spirit that indwells us now...

It's incontrovertable in my mind...though how to convince my fellow messianics...
well...I haven't been given the words yet...though I do keep praying

no apologies needed ... we are sister in His name
 
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linssue55

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Cleany said:
"Fully God"? Apparently it is "necessary" to believe that about Jesus to be a Christian, but why? And what does it mean anyway, does anyone actually understand it?
Click to expand...

The Trinity...........

1. Definition: (Points 1-4).

....God is one in essence, yet three distinct persons.

....A. Unity of the Godhead; (Acts 17:29, Rom 1:20, Col 2:9)
....B. Three Persons of one substance, power and eternity;

........The Persons of The Godhead all have 10 distinct attributes:

........Omniscience: all knowing.
........Omnipotence: all power.
........Omnipresence: infinite presence.
........Sovereignty: Supreme Being of the Universe.
........Veracity: Truth.
........Immutablilty: Unchanging, "not subject to change or variation in quality or nature or form".
........Eternal Life: timeless existence without beginning or end.
........Justice: absolute fairness, equity, judgement.
........Righteousness: intrinsic Good, intergrity, honor, uprightness..
........Love: infinite capacity for affection, esteem, respect, and pleasure of same.

2. Full title of God; God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit. (Matt 28:19, 2Cor 13:14)


3. Each Person of God possesses identical Divine attributes, making them co-equal one with the other. (Jn 10:30, 16:15).

4. When the Bible speaks of God as being One it is a reference to the essence which the Persons of the
....Godhead share, whereas the unique names of each Person speak of the individual Person, and not all three.

5. Analogy to Light;

....A. Light is composed of three elements; Actinic, Liminiferous and Calorific.
....B. Application; Although light is perceived as one achromatic phenomenon, it possesses three exclusive
........properties, each of which is a parallel to one unique Person of God;
........(1) Actinic light is neither seen nor felt; The Father.
........(2) Luminiferous light is both seen and felt; The Son
........(2) Calorific light is felt, but not seen; The Holy Spirit

6. The Trinity in the Old Testement:

....A. Hebrew word "Elohim", plural. (Deut 6:4)
....B. The Father, 1st Person. (Gen 1:3, Isa 53:10)
....C. The Son, 2nd Person. (Gen 1:1, Cf. Jn 1:3, Col 1:16, Isa 53, 63:8, Micah 5:2)
....D. The Holy Spirit, 3rd Person. (Gen 1:2 w/Psa 104:30, Gen 41:38, Num 27:18, 1 Sam 16:13, Psa 139:7)

7. The Trinity in the New Testement:

......Emphasis is on the individual Persons of the Trinity as expressed in their unique roles in the
......Plan of God:

....A. The Father planned</B> salvation; (Isa 14:27, Jn 4:34, 5:17, 12:44, 1:24; 1Cor 8:6, Eph 3:11).
....B.The Son executes the plan of salvation; (Jn 4:34, 5:17, Heb 10:7).
....C. The Holy Spirit reveals the plan of salvation;
...........(1) To unbelievers; (Jn 16:8-11).
...........(2) To believers; (Jn 16:13,14; 1Cor 2;10).

9. Jesus Christ is the only visible member of The Godhead;
.........(Jn 1:18, 6:46; 1Yim 6:16, 1Jn 4:12).

10. Doctrine of Procession;

.....A. The Father sent the Son; (Jn 17:3, Gal 4:4).
.....B. The Father and Son sent the Holy Spirit; (Jn 14:26, 15:26).
.....C. Christ sends The Comforter; (Jn 16:7).
 
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Cleany

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i have read a lot of stuff here, and this statement sums up what is going on.

christian faith is not, i repeat not, believing in statements such as these. as diane put is grace is the only thing necessary for salvation.

why does "faith" have to mean believing statements that you dont understand? can anyone actually explain what that means, and how jesus quite clearly didnt know all that god apparently does?

to me the trinity is like the big bang theory. it is mans best guess at an unanswerable question. it is not provable in any way, or really understandable. to believe it completely is utter denial and self-dishonesty. to think that you "have to" believe it for some reason is fear.

we are ALLOWED to think for ourselves and question things.
 
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sanct1fym3

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I agree 100.05% I really love to understand everything!! But there are certain things that are beyond my comprehension: infinity, free will and God's ultimate ability to use it, and the trinity are the three that are the most baffling to me. But i will say that i like C.S. Lewis's illustration best. In Mere Christianity.
 
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thereselittleflower

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Diane, a question that challenges one to prove the Trinity does raise eyebrows . .it raised mine for sure . . .


Why should we have to prove the Trinity here in GT when it is a required belief in order to even be able to post in GT or anywhere else in the Chrsitain Only section of CF?

It can't be proven from the bible in its fulness . . . it is only suggested by the bible . .


we believe in the Trinity because ti is the core of our Christian faith.



Peace to all
 
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thereselittleflower

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Diane_Windsor said:
Do you happen to know when that was Therese?

DIANE
Click to expand...

No

If Erwin would give us our search functions back, I might be able to find it .. but then again, it might have been pulled too . . .


I didn't realize at the time that the Messianic forum is a special forum where those who are Messianic but do not meet the criteria for the Christian Only section of CF can post there but no where else in the Christian Only section of CF.

But there is only one faith icon, so we don't know who is who . . .


Peace to all
 
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thereselittleflower

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God holds us accountable for the truth we know . . .


Do you think we will receive Grace for salvation if we deliberately turn our backs on the truth?



Peace to all
 
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Cleany

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thereselittleflower said:
God holds us accountable for the truth we know . . .

Do you think we will receive Grace for salvation if we deliberately turn our backs on the truth?

Peace to all
Click to expand...

the "truth" you are talking about are mans explaination of ideas that are not able to be fully understood, i question these ideas and the explainations of them. for this i can be held accountable.

but i dont see how i can be held "accountable" for not believing in ideas which are man made without questioning them. the word "trinity" isnt in the bible, not does the bible say anywhere that believing in "the trinity" is necessary for salvation, or that we will be held accountable for our beliefs.

what the bible does mention about in reference to accountablility, MANY times, is our behaviour. but that would go against the sacred fundementalist idea of "grace through faith" wouldnt it?

it appears that "truth" and "biblical" are words whos meaning change depending on what people want to believe. perhaps god holds us accountable for our honesty with ourselves and others.


if anyone honestly thinks that their not going to hell depends on "believing" some statements about the nature of god and salvation then i ask them why do they think that? and why do they think that others should think the same way?
 
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