The Trinity

ILoveYeshua · Jan 12, 2006

Joh 8:17 It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
Joh 8:18 I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.

2? 1? 3?

ILoveYeshua · Jan 12, 2006

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

SON of God.

ILoveYeshua · Jan 12, 2006

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

Here we see all 3. Yet we know they are One.

Joh 10:30 I and my Father are one.

Diane_Windsor · Jan 12, 2006

Cleany said:
"Fully God"? Apparently it is "necessary" to believe that about Jesus to be a Christian, but why? And what does it mean anyway, does anyone actually understand it?

No. Because the definitions concerning Jesus' nature, the Trinity, etc. of the early Church Councils and creeds, are not binding upon us.

DIANE

FriarTuck · Jan 12, 2006

so you don't believe Jesus is fully God?

Oblio · Jan 12, 2006

Tonks said:
Is anyone else surprised that the meaning of the "small c" catholic was not apparent in that statement?????

Not me, it was only a matter of time . Same thing happens all the time with church and to (thankfully) a much lesser extent orthodox.

JayJay77 · Jan 12, 2006

from Friartuck: Whoever wants to be saved should above all cling to the catholic faith.

reaction from Gwenyfur: So I'm going to hell because....I'm jewish, and believe in the same that the apostles did....BEFORE the catholic church was even founded.....

reaction from kopilo: I'm only disharened with that statement about only catholics going to heaven..as in I find it depressing someone would say such a definative line.

Hold on, now, I don't think Friartuck said anything of the like that should evoke either of these reactions. Let's find out what Friartuck meant by "cling to the catholic faith." Is it:
1) the catholic teaching of the trinity itself
meaning that the catholic faith first instituted the teaching that Jesus is in fact God, and that we should put our trust in His Lordship

or is it:
2) the catholic faith itself,
meaning: if you're not catholic at all, there is no hope for you.

Which was is Friar? (unless you meant something else I haven't covered )

Melethiel · Jan 12, 2006

JayJay77 said:
Hold on, now, I don't think Friartuck said anything of the like that should evoke either of these reactions. Let's find out what Friartuck meant by "cling to the catholic faith." Is it:
1) the catholic teaching of the trinity itself
meaning that the catholic faith first instituted the teaching that Jesus is in fact God, and that we should put our trust in His Lordship

or is it:
2) the catholic faith itself,
meaning: if you're not catholic at all, there is no hope for you.

Which was is Friar? (unless you meant something else I haven't covered )

Both. Catholic (with a small "c") means universal, so in a sense, you could substitute "Christian faith", though catholic is the more traditional and correct usage.

FriarTuck · Jan 12, 2006

Firstly it's the Athanasian Creed for those of you who didn't get that. I didn't write it or formulate it. I posted it because of the OP, it explains in lengthy detail how the trinity works. It was formulated to combat heresy about the trinity and to teach those who did not understand it. Lastly I'm Lutheran so I would hope from that you would be able to infer which c I meant. Peace and love to all. now let's stop hijacking the thread and get back to the OP

Tetzel · Jan 12, 2006

FriarTuck said:
Firstly it's the Athanasian Creed for those of you who didn't get that. I didn't write it or formulate it. I posted it because of the OP, it explains in lengthy detail how the trinity works. It was formulated to combat heresy about the trinity and to teach those who did not understand it. Lastly I'm Lutheran so I would hope from that you would be able to infer which c I meant. Peace and love to all. now let's stop hijacking the thread and get back to the OP

That's why I said small c

JayJay77 · Jan 12, 2006

Nice, Friar...back to the OP...I agree that believing in the trinity is essential because Jesus = God. If it were not so, than our hope is in some immortalized man.

Iollain · Jan 12, 2006

Oh darn! So, if for arguments sake someone was to say that they did not believe that Jesus was God, is there going to be outright condemnation to the point of saying that they cannot be saved?

When i was first a believer i didn't see how the Trinity was One God, but with reading the Bible, i did see He is. At first i didn't believe the wrathful God of the Old Testament had anything to do with the New Testament. I heard people say that they were the same, but i had to see this for myself, and God showed me through His Written Word, that yes there is Trinity, and yes the Bible does fit together.

If you put the word 'spirit' in a Bible search engine, you will see that sometimes when it says Spirit, it is talking about the Father, sometimes the Son, and sometimes the Holy Ghost.

If you don't stick with the Trinity belief, you might find yourself in a Mormon like faith, and ya know that's not good.

Iollain · Jan 12, 2006

Here is a good glimpse of the Trinity:

Who raised Jesus from the dead?

Himself:

Jhn 2:19 Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.

The glory of the Father...

Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

By the Father....

Gal 1:1 Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead

God...

1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Hbr 11:19 Accounting that God [was] able to raise [him] up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.

By the Spirit....

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Who will raise the dead ?

Act 26:8 Why should it be thought a thing incredible with you, that God should raise the dead?

1Cr 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.

Jhn 6:39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

Jhn 6:40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 6:54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

Rom 8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

Iollain · Jan 12, 2006

lol, i didn't put that smiley winker in there, it came with the verse i guess

Diane_Windsor · Jan 12, 2006

FriarTuck said:
so you don't believe Jesus is fully God?

I don't recall that I stated anything about my personal beliefs about Jesus. I said that councils and creeds, which are opinions, are not binding on us:

Again, the definitions concerning Jesus' nature, the Trinity, etc. of the early Church Councils and creeds, are not binding upon us.

DIANE

FriarTuck · Jan 12, 2006

Diane_Windsor said:
I don't recall that I stated anything about my personal beliefs about Jesus. It is not wise to assume the beliefs of other posters. I said that councils and creeds, which are opinions, are not binding on us:

Again, the definitions concerning Jesus' nature, the Trinity, etc. of the early Church Councils and creeds, are not binding upon us.

DIANE

did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence. That means I wasn't making an assumption I was asking a question. now if I had written."So you don't believe Jesus was fully God." then I would have been making a statement about what you believe that would have been an assumption. Also those creeds are binding on the majority of christians as to my knowledge The RCC, EO, Lutheran, and others still confess those creeds.

Diane_Windsor · Jan 12, 2006

FriarTuck said:
did you see the question mark at the end of the sentence. That means I wasn't making an assumption I was asking a question.

Which is why I edited that part out. See above.

Also those creeds are binding on the majority of christians as to my knowledge The RCC, EO, Lutheran, and others still confess those creeds.

And? That does not mean that the creeds, in and of themselves, are binding on Christ's Church. God is not going to bar someone from Heaven because they disagree with the opinions of men.

DIANE

depthdeception · Jan 12, 2006

Cleany said:
if jesus is fully god then why ...

Mark 13:32

Jesus is not simply "fully God." He is also fully man. Therefore, the way in which one thinks about the divinity of Jesus must be held in tension with what one thinks about the humanity of Jesus.

the trinity can be implied in the gospels, but that doesnt explain anything about it. how can a man be fully god?

The orthodox statements about Jesus are that Christ is 2 natures--divine and human--in hypostatic union in the one person of Jesus.

depthdeception · Jan 12, 2006

Diane_Windsor said:
No. Because the definitions concerning Jesus' nature, the Trinity, etc. of the early Church Councils and creeds, are not binding upon us.

DIANE

Then you have no basis for faith. And don't bother saying that you have the Scriptures, for the same Church gave you the Scriptures that gave the creeds that you reject.

Polycarp1 · Jan 12, 2006

Diane_Windsor said:
I don't recall that I stated anything about my personal beliefs about Jesus. I said that councils and creeds, which are opinions, are not binding on us:

Again, the definitions concerning Jesus' nature, the Trinity, etc. of the early Church Councils and creeds, are not binding upon us.

DIANE

Actually they are, Diane, not because a Catholic or Orthodox poster or I said so, but on the assumption that they're the Truth and that that Truth is necessary for salvation. However, you make a good point; in General Theology it's never wise to assume anything about what someone else believes, because the most goshawful concepts have been seriously advanced as "true Christianity" here.

May I recommend to all who might be interested the remarkable book called Cur Deus Homo (How Is God Man?) by St. Anselm of Canterbury, which explores the questions of the Incarnation and the Atonement in the form of a dialogue between Anselm himself and an interlocutor named Boso (a legitimate medieval name, not to be confused with the clown). The link connects to a fairly easy reading and slightly abridged version that focuses on the issues at hand.

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