The Trinity Doctrine

What is so hugely important about the doctrine of the trinity?

If there is one god, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there are three gods, who command you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there is one god in three persons, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If whatever the mormons or Jehova's witnesses believe is correct ( apparently they aren't "christians" ), shouldn't you repent and not sin?

the doctrine of the trinity, related to the admittedly incomprehensible nature of god-- what i do not understand is how is this relevant to how you serve God in this world?

....

It seems that this doctrine has been used for millennia to exclude people, from the early history of the church, people denying it were cast out as heretics, in the middle ages they executed people for denying the trinity, and here today on christian forums, apparently you aren't christian if you don't affirm it as part of the terms of use.

...

so why are mortals to be concerned about the hierarchy of heaven, anyway, isn't it enough to say that Jesus came from God and not elaborate any further?

Nathan45 said:

What is so hugely important about the doctrine of the trinity?

If there is one god, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there are three gods, who command you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there is one god in three persons, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If whatever the mormons or Jehova's witnesses believe is correct ( apparently they aren't "christians" ), shouldn't you repent and not sin?

the doctrine of the trinity, related to the admittedly incomprehensible nature of god-- what i do not understand is how is this relevant to how you serve God in this world?

....

It seems that this doctrine has been used for millennia to exclude people, from the early history of the church, people denying it were cast out as heretics, in the middle ages they executed people for denying the trinity, and here today on christian forums, apparently you aren't christian if you don't affirm it as part of the terms of use.

...

so why are mortals to be concerned about the hierarchy of heaven, anyway, isn't it enough to say that Jesus came from God and not elaborate any further?

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Kind of depends on what you are replacing it with. It's not the end of the world if an individual as a shaky knowledge or misunderstanding about exactly how Trinity works. What is important is:
Jesus is divine (and human at the same time).
The Holy Spirit is divine.
The Father is divine.
Those three are separate persons.
There is only one God.

Denying any one of them gets in the way of a proper understanding of what is going on. On the other hand, a properly worked out theology of Trinity took a couple of centuries to work out - none of the apostles knew it.

It also needs to be noted strongly that the Christian gospel is not "repent and not sin".

apparently you aren't christian if you don't affirm it as part of the terms of use.

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For practical purposes CF needs some definition of Christian.

so why are mortals to be concerned about the hierarchy of heaven, anyway, isn't it enough to say that Jesus came from God and not elaborate any further?

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That might be adequate for an individual, but not for the church if it is to continue the task of trying to improve it's understanding of God and his purpose.

It is important because the reason we believe that God said to "repent and not sin" is because Jesus said it.

If he is God then it is a good idea to listen to him and "repent and not sin".

If he is not God then Christians are a bunch of idiots for listening to him on any subject.

If he is not God, but rather just some guy a long time ago that had good ideas, then what makes his philosophy any more valid than any other guy in history? What makes his philosophy any better that Nietzsche's?

What is good? All that heightens the feeling of power in man, the will to power, power itself. What is bad? All that is born of weakness. What is happiness? The feeling that power is growing, that resistance is overcome.
Friedrich Nietzsche

Nathan45 said:

What is so hugely important about the doctrine of the trinity?


If there is one god, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there are three gods, who command you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If there is one god in three persons, who commands you to repent and not sin, shouldn't you repent and not sin?

If whatever the mormons or Jehova's witnesses believe is correct ( apparently they aren't "christians" ), shouldn't you repent and not sin?

the doctrine of the trinity, related to the admittedly incomprehensible nature of god-- what i do not understand is how is this relevant to how you serve God in this world?

Click to expand...

Well, for starters understanding the nature of God is essential to having a relationship with God. For example, if you believe that the nature of God is to desire a relationship with humanity, your actions will be much different than if you don't believe that.

As it relates to the Trinity, a correct understanding is essential to our faith in many ways:

Biblical Integrity
Isa 43:10 Ye are my witnesses, saith the LORD, and my servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God, neither shall there be after me.
(sorry, E-Sword isnt that great for copying verses )

So, if the Mormons are correct that there is not a trinity, but three seperate gods, then this verse (and many similar ones) are incorrect and therefore the Bible cannot always be trusted as a source of doctrinal truth.

Faith in the Atonement
On the other hand, as the JW's believe, if Christ was not God in the flesh but rather man sent from God, then what faith can we have in his sacrifice? Who but God could live a spotless, sinless life? Christ said that (John 15:13) Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.

So, if (1 John 4:8 partial verse) God is love, then wouldnt it follow that God would commit this greatest act of love?

(Also, as a side note, if we believe that Jesus was just a man, we would have to retranslate or throw out a ton of verses in the Bible like all of Jesus' claims of divinity and the first chunk of John 1 - so this view as well affects how we can view the Bible's accuracy.)

Nathan45 said:

It seems that this doctrine has been used for millennia to exclude people, from the early history of the church, people denying it were cast out as heretics, in the middle ages they executed people for denying the trinity, and here today on christian forums, apparently you aren't christian if you don't affirm it as part of the terms of use.

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Though I dont condone some of the ways that churches condemned people for this problem in the past, I would say that because of the issues I raised above and more, this is not something that should be taken lightly. It is not a matter of exclusion, it is a matter of truth and falsehood, and trying to stop confusion from being spread.

Nathan45 said:

so why are mortals to be concerned about the hierarchy of heaven, anyway, isn't it enough to say that Jesus came from God and not elaborate any further?

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Well, if the Bible taught just that or left that route open to us in it's writings, then I would say sure, why not. However, it doesnt, so we should care about it one way or another.

Thank you for your responses.

ebia said:

What is important is:

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ebia said:

Jesus is divine (and human at the same time).
The Holy Spirit is divine.
The Father is divine.
Those three are separate persons.
There is only one God.

Click to expand...

I understand that it is an important concept that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God are divine, and "There is only one God." seems logical to me and is scripturally supported, but what is important about the rest of the doctine?

"[Jesus] is human at the same time"
"Those are three separate persons."

and also what is the distinction between Jesus being Son of God, God, or simply the messiah, or all of the above?

Basically what i'm asking is how would christians act differently if, hypothetically, Jesus was simply the Messiah of God, and not God? Would you still follow him, just to a lesser extent? Would you do anything differently?

Also, if Jesus was not fully human, and only fully divine, how would you act differently? Or if, hypothetically, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit were not three separate persons, but the same person, how would you act differently?

It also needs to be noted strongly that the Christian gospel is not "repent and not sin".

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I understand that the christian gospel is a lot more complicated than this. But, for clarification, What would you say the christian gospel is about, besides simply believing the christian gospel?

For practical purposes CF needs some definition of Christian.

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I suppose it does.

That might be adequate for an individual, but not for the church if it is to continue the task of trying to improve it's understanding of God and his purpose.

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On a side question, by what method, besides divine revelation, would the church use in trying to improve it's understanding of God and his purpose?

Nathan45 said:

Basically what i'm asking is how would christians act differently if, hypothetically, Jesus was simply the Messiah of God, and not God? Would you still follow him, just to a lesser extent? Would you do anything differently?

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You ask very good questions. But this one is kind of difficult to answer since you are asking what would Christianity be like if it had developed differently. I don’t think you can answer this by looking at modern sects like Jehovah’s Witnesses or Mormons since they actually derived most of their core beliefs from the “True” Church and then simply readded in a few old and discredited heresies.

Maybe if you go way back to the second and third centuries and look at some of the various gnostic sects you might get a hint of how Christianity might have developed if it had believed differently about who Jesus was.

Nathan said:

Also, if Jesus was not fully human, and only fully divine, how would you act differently? Or if, hypothetically, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit were not three separate persons, but the same person, how would you act differently?

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You are not the first person to ask these very specific questions. They were vigorously debated, and decided by the corporate Church, at various times around 1700 years ago. See this link: http://www.carm.org/heresy.htm

To specifically address your question:
One heresy is Monophysitism- Jesus had only one nature: divine.
A second heresy is Modalism - God is one person in three modes.

There were other heresies also that are discussed at the link provided. As I said above, it is very difficult to say, from our viewpoint in the 21st Century, what the Church would be like if it had developed differently for the past 2000 years.

Nathan said:

I understand that the christian gospel is a lot more complicated than this. But, for clarification, What would you say the christian gospel is about, besides simply believing the christian gospel?

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Gospel is a greek word meaning good news. The Good News is that Jesus Christ will gift you eternal life in heaven if you believe in him and follow his commandments. He specifically told us that his commandments may be summed up in two parts 1. Love God, and 2. Love your neighbor as you love yourself.

This is the Gospel in its most basic terms.

Nathan said:

On a side question, by what method, besides divine revelation, would the church use in trying to improve it's understanding of God and his purpose?

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There will probably be differing opinions on this question, but I belive it is through personal and corporate prayer, and through the corporate liturgy of the Church.

Nathan45 said:

Thank you for your responses.



I understand that it is an important concept that Jesus, The Holy Spirit, and God are divine, and "There is only one God." seems logical to me and is scripturally supported, but what is important about the rest of the doctine?

"[Jesus] is human at the same time"

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Jesus is 100% divine and 100% human. Without that he isn't the bridge between God and humanity that restores what is lost, and the incarnation is a meaningless waste of time. In so far as we understand how the incarnation works, it absolutely relys in Jesus being fully human.

"Those are three separate persons."

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As opposed to what? What's the alternative? That Jesus prayed to himself? That he went away on Ascension just to come back 10 days later with a different name? It's hard to say exactly what's wrong with the alternative without being presented with the alternative that one is addressing.

and also what is the distinction between Jesus being Son of God, God, or simply the messiah, or all of the above?

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He is all of the above - neither "Son of God" nor "Messiah" implied divinity before hand.

Basically what i'm asking is how would christians act differently if, hypothetically, Jesus was simply the Messiah of God, and not God? Would you still follow him, just to a lesser extent? Would you do anything differently?

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I'm not sure how one could make sense of the incarnation, crucifixion, and resurrection without him being God. Incarnation simply wouldn't be - there would be no idea of God coming into his creation to redeem it. And it's hard to see how his crucifixion would be anything more than a humiliating death.

Also, if Jesus was not fully human, and only fully divine, how would you act differently?

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Then he would simply be a 'superman'. He would no longer be what we are supposed to be. He would no longer be 'God becoming us'. He would no longer be standinging in for us. He would no longer be the 2nd Adam, the first man of the New Creation. As in the previous case, much of St John's gospel in particular would make no sense when you look closely.

Or if, hypothetically, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit were not three separate persons, but the same person, how would you act differently?

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See what I said earlier.

I understand that the christian gospel is a lot more complicated than this.

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Not just more complicated - "repent and sin no more" isn't the gospel at all. It's a command.

But, for clarification, What would you say the christian gospel is about,

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"Jesus Christ is Lord... and therefore Caesar (or the world economic system, or greed, or whatever) is not... and he has redeemed the world.

besides simply believing the christian gospel?

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Christian discipleship involves turning back to God and trusting him (repentance), but that isn't the Gospel, which is (by its very meaning) a proclamation of good news about who is Lord and what he is doing.

On a side question, by what method, besides divine revelation, would the church use in trying to improve it's understanding of God and his purpose?

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That's not a simple question to answer - it's a bit more than a side question - so I think I'd like a bit direction about what you are asking.