The Trinity and the Divinity of Christ

[Dasein]

Over the past month, through prayer, attending Church, discussions with Christian friends, reading the Bible, and this forum, I have discovered God and He has returned to my life.

I still have many intellectual confusions, but spiritually, in prayer and when reading the Bible, I feel that I have returned to God, and that mostly these confusions will work themselves out. However, though I have found God through Christianity, I would not consider myself a Christian, because of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Quite simply, I am both spiritually and intellectually perplexed by the notion of the Trinity.

Firstly, I do not understand how the notion of three distinct persons, one God/one substance works, or what that even really means.

Secondly, I don't understand more specifically how Jesus can be fully God, one and the same.


I can understand some of the reasons for supposing the Trinity, from a Scriptural point of view, but I don't think it's necessarily implied by Scripture; it seems to me that it's there if you look for it, but without key early Christian reformation (such as the Council of Nicea) and suppression of competing views, I think that some form of nontrinitarianism such as Arianism could have easily been as popular as Trinitarianism is now.

I'm not just looking for Scriptural quotations here (I obviously will appreciate some though, in tandem with other sources), as personally I think that the Scripture seems to provide plenty of support for the distinctness of the Three, but less for the oneness of the Three.
What would be more useful would be to help me understand it.

I feel like some form of Christianity is the right path to take for several reasons, but I can't progress any further without understanding this. I've been primarily using the Old Testament for prayer reading, and this issue is now affecting my ability to pray, as it is lurking at the back of my mind.

I don't think I can move on spiritually without getting past this, but I don't think I can get past this without help.


(Apologies for my multiple threads in this section of the forum at the moment, but bear with me; they're all proving to be helpful so far... I have a lot of questions!)

EDIT: I also realise that for most, rejecting the Trinity is a heresy (and that most nonTrinitarian positions in history have been branded as heretical), but forgive me if this offends; I'm still learning!

 

[ebia]

Over the past month, through prayer, attending Church, discussions with Christian friends, reading the Bible, and this forum, I have discovered God and He has returned to my life.

I still have many intellectual confusions, but spiritually, in prayer and when reading the Bible, I feel that I have returned to God, and that mostly these confusions will work themselves out. However, though I have found God through Christianity, I would not consider myself a Christian, because of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Quite simply, I am both spiritually and intellectually perplexed by the notion of the Trinity.

Firstly, I do not understand how the notion of three distinct persons, one God/one substance works, or what that even really means.

Secondly, I don't understand more specifically how Jesus can be fully God, one and the same.


I can understand some of the reasons for supposing the Trinity, from a Scriptural point of view, but I don't think it's necessarily implied by Scripture; it seems to me that it's there if you look for it, but without key early Christian reformation (such as the Council of Nicea) and suppression of competing views, I think that some form of nontrinitarianism such as Arianism could have easily been as popular as Trinitarianism is now.

I'm not just looking for Scriptural quotations here (I obviously will appreciate some though, in tandem with other sources), as personally I think that the Scripture seems to provide plenty of support for the distinctness of the Three, but less for the oneness of the Three.
What would be more useful would be to help me understand it.

I feel like some form of Christianity is the right path to take for several reasons, but I can't progress any further without understanding this. I've been primarily using the Old Testament for prayer reading, and this issue is now affecting my ability to pray, as it is lurking at the back of my mind.

I don't think I can move on spiritually without getting past this, but I don't think I can get past this without help.


(Apologies for my multiple threads in this section of the forum at the moment, but bear with me; they're all proving to be helpful so far... I have a lot of questions!)

EDIT: I also realise that for most, rejecting the Trinity is a heresy (and that most nonTrinitarian positions in history have been branded as heretical), but forgive me if this offends; I'm still learning!

Don't worrry about struggling with these questions - they are the same questions the early Christians struggled with.

Bearing in mind that Christianity grew out of Judaism, and Judaism is firmly monotheistic, there is one unique God. The New Testament writers never question that. They never say "oh, but now we know there really are three Gods". Paul, in particular, takes precisely the opposite approach , he takes some of the most fiercly monotheistic "proof-texts" in the O.T. and reworks them around Jesus. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One", becomes "God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ".

The New Testament doesn't talk in the terms of the doctine of Trinity - that's a later attempt to explain in the philosophic language of its time how the things Paul, John, etc say in poetry and metaphore can be true. Don't stress about the terms of the doctine of Trinity, immerse yourself in Paul and John, compare John's prologue to Genesis 1, compare the openning story of John 13 to the poem in Philippians 2,....

As to the second connected point, what does it mean to say Jesus is God? Is that a statement about Jesus - bring all your baggage about the word God and dump it on Jesus of Nazareth - or is it a statement about about God - look at Jesus of Nazareth and you will see most clearly who God is? I suggest the latter. If you can't fit your notions of God into Jesus, then put those on one side and allow what you see in Jesus to redefine who God is.

 

[Dasein]

Don't worrry about struggling with these questions - they are the same questions the early Christians struggled with.

Bearing in mind that Christianity grew out of Judaism, and Judaism is firmly monotheistic, there is one unique God. The New Testament writers never question that. They never say "oh, but now we know there really are three Gods". Paul, in particular, takes precisely the opposite approach , he takes some of the most fiercly monotheistic "proof-texts" in the O.T. and reworks them around Jesus. "Hear, O Israel, the Lord your God, the Lord is One", becomes "God our Father and our Lord Jesus Christ".

The New Testament doesn't talk in the terms of the doctine of Trinity - that's a later attempt to explain in the philosophic language of its time how the things Paul, John, etc say in poetry and metaphore can be true. Don't stress about the terms of the doctine of Trinity, immerse yourself in Paul and John, compare John's prologue to Genesis 1, compare the openning story of John 13 to the poem in Philippians 2,....

I think that, through talking the issue through with a Christian friend, my problem really is with the latter question, and the issue with the Trinity is a consequence of it. I find it hard to understand the Divinity of Jesus, and as a consequence, cannot understand the Trinity. (I'm actually fine with the same notion applied to merely the Holy Spirit and God, the problem comes when physical, human existence gets involved)

As to the second connected point, what does it mean to say Jesus is God? Is that a statement about Jesus - bring all your baggage about the word God and dump it on Jesus of Nazareth - or is it a statement about about God - look at Jesus of Nazareth and you will see most clearly who God is? I suggest the latter. If you can't fit your notions of God into Jesus, then put those on one side and allow what you see in Jesus to redefine who God is.

This is immensely useful, thank you!

I think the main problem is a broadly metaphysical understanding of the Trinity, as it would mean - as you pointed out - that somehow a man would be all the things that God is (non-corporeal, transcendent and so on...), which just confuses me.
I can understand that Jesus can help us see the human side of God, so to speak, and am very much for that side of understanding. My only problem is that the Divinity of Christ and more specifically His place in the Trinity seems to imply the metaphysical problems.
Perhaps I don't need to trouble myself with the metaphysical issue and I should concentrate on what spiritual attributes of God are personified in Jesus, as opposed to taking the statement ontologically. (to say that God may have a beard or that God ate breakfast on a Tuesday seems the wrong thing to take away from the Trinity at any rate!)

 

[ebia]

I think that, through talking the issue through with a Christian friend, my problem really is with the latter question, and the issue with the Trinity is a consequence of it. I find it hard to understand the Divinity of Jesus, and as a consequence, cannot understand the Trinity. (I'm actually fine with the same notion applied to merely the Holy Spirit and God, the problem comes when physical, human existence gets involved)



This is immensely useful, thank you!

I think the main problem is a broadly metaphysical understanding of the Trinity, as it would mean - as you pointed out - that somehow a man would be all the things that God is (non-corporeal, transcendent and so on...), which just confuses me.
I can understand that Jesus can help us see the human side of God, so to speak, and am very much for that side of understanding. My only problem is that the Divinity of Christ and more specifically His place in the Trinity seems to imply the metaphysical problems.
Perhaps I don't need to trouble myself with the metaphysical issue and I should concentrate on what spiritual attributes of God are personified in Jesus, as opposed to taking the statement ontologically. (to say that God may have a beard or that God ate breakfast on a Tuesday seems the wrong thing to take away from the Trinity at any rate!)

I think you are getting the idea, but you are still (like the rest of us) bringing too many outside assumptions about who and what God is to the story. Maybe you need to say that those metaphysical attributes (to use your terminology) aren't actually intrinsic to God.

 

[Aibrean]

Compare the Trinity to water and it all makes sense.

 

[Emmy]

Dear Dasein. You had some good explanatory replies. May I try and say it a bit shorter, and simpler? God is Holy Spirit, He is everywhere and He sees everything. When Mankind was nearly lost altogether, we needed a Saviour. God, in His Omniscience, had the only answer to the dilemma Humanity found itself in. God chose a worthy Virgin as the human vessel, to bring forth a worthy human being, endowed with His Holy Spirit, the Son of Man/God-Son, Jesus. Jesus showed us the Father, how He really is, Jesus was the Sacrifice which we could not pay to God`s Holy Law. Jesus reconciled us to God, and when God raised Him, our sins were paid for, we are free to follow Jesus back to God. Jesus is now our Intercessor, He knows that our lot is not an easy one, He is able to help and guide us. God-Holy Spirit is in the world now, where He is finishing the work which Jesus started. Three being/persons, to redeem ALL Mankind, i.e. whosoever will, may come. That is a promise to us. I say this humbly and with love, Dasein. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ. P.S. God is our Heavenly Father, Jesus pleads our prayers, both the same HOLY SPIRIT, ONE GREAT GOD.

 

[Dasein]

Compare the Trinity to water and it all makes sense.

This is actually very useful, thank you!
I do have to say that it took me a moment to understand what you meant though! (probably not assisted by the fact that I'm doing an essay on Natural Kinds at the moment and I've been writing a LOT about water )

It turns out that the simplest answers can be the most useful!

 

[Dasein]

I think you are getting the idea, but you are still (like the rest of us) bringing too many outside assumptions about who and what God is to the story. Maybe you need to say that those metaphysical attributes (to use your terminology) aren't actually intrinsic to God.

Another post that took me a moment to figure out!
At first I didn't agree with/understand the post, but after having discussions about this broad issue at a Christian youth group over the weekend, I think that it has helped immensely.

One of the key points about the incarnation is that God limits himself to human form through/in/as Jesus. It is, like you said, not intrinsic to God as a whole that he be (for example) non-corporeal, evidenced by the mere fact of the incarnation!

I think my biggest problem is that I've come at a new understanding of God through a re-evaluation of what I previously thought God to be, and in the process I think that it's led me to focus on God the Father intellectually, and God the Holy Spirit experientially, and God the Son has been left out of the equation.

As you said, instead of bringing my preconceived notions to the table and trying to somehow patch Jesus into my existing understanding of God the Father, I should allow myself to re-evaluate my own conceptions.

Thank you again.

 

[dobieman0488]

Over the past month, through prayer, attending Church, discussions with Christian friends, reading the Bible, and this forum, I have discovered God and He has returned to my life.

I still have many intellectual confusions, but spiritually, in prayer and when reading the Bible, I feel that I have returned to God, and that mostly these confusions will work themselves out. However, though I have found God through Christianity, I would not consider myself a Christian, because of the doctrine of the Trinity.

Quite simply, I am both spiritually and intellectually perplexed by the notion of the Trinity.

Firstly, I do not understand how the notion of three distinct persons, one God/one substance works, or what that even really means.

Secondly, I don't understand more specifically how Jesus can be fully God, one and the same.


I can understand some of the reasons for supposing the Trinity, from a Scriptural point of view, but I don't think it's necessarily implied by Scripture; it seems to me that it's there if you look for it, but without key early Christian reformation (such as the Council of Nicea) and suppression of competing views, I think that some form of nontrinitarianism such as Arianism could have easily been as popular as Trinitarianism is now.

I'm not just looking for Scriptural quotations here (I obviously will appreciate some though, in tandem with other sources), as personally I think that the Scripture seems to provide plenty of support for the distinctness of the Three, but less for the oneness of the Three.
What would be more useful would be to help me understand it.

I feel like some form of Christianity is the right path to take for several reasons, but I can't progress any further without understanding this. I've been primarily using the Old Testament for prayer reading, and this issue is now affecting my ability to pray, as it is lurking at the back of my mind.

I don't think I can move on spiritually without getting past this, but I don't think I can get past this without help.


(Apologies for my multiple threads in this section of the forum at the moment, but bear with me; they're all proving to be helpful so far... I have a lot of questions!)

EDIT: I also realise that for most, rejecting the Trinity is a heresy (and that most nonTrinitarian positions in history have been branded as heretical), but forgive me if this offends; I'm still learning!

God became a man, who is Jesus, because he had to become a man in order to die, he humbled himself to become a man, but maintained his divinity while on earth, fully good and fully man, that's why he prayed to the father, because while he was the father, in a sense, he was also human, and needed to lower himself to that position. this may be a stretch, but think of it as water. it can be solid, liquid, or gas, but it's still water. God, Jesus,. Holy Spirit. all still God.

 

[DrBubbaLove]

Yes, as the last post said, Jesus is both fully God and fully a Man. How? Am not sure we understand or are capable of understanding, but we should not let that trouble us. Any God a man could fully comprehend is no god at all.

We humans have two natures in one "person" and yet we normally do not question how that can be. While no other possibilities present themselves for our consideration (angels come to mind but that only helps those of us who beleive in such beings), there is no reason for us to say it is impossible for their to be an existence where 3 "persons" have one nature (or other combinations- going a little sci-fi here). So the notion that just because it is unknown to us such beings must not exist is flawed. I suspect there is a lot we do not know.
Funny thing is many of the same people willing to deny the possibility of the Trinity are perfectly open to the idea of an alien with either similar or different characteristics (multi-person & multi-nature). Odd.