The Toronto Deception

~RENEE~ said:

to wake me up

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Let everything that has breath praise the Lord

Chirpy chirpy praise the Lord, why else would God them them such splendid voices?


All god's creatures got a place in the choir
http://www.liamclancy.com/tabs/place.htm

talitha said:

Absolutely.

Whenever there is something of spirit happening, you will get some wackos - and since there was a LOT of spirit happening at TAV/TACF, there were a LOT of wackos......

I never went to Toronto. I have, however, heard John and Carol Arnott speak and seen them minister, and also Randy Clark, at the church he started in St.Louis. I was impressed with these people, particularly Carol, the way she poured herself out in ministry to one person after another. I also experienced a strong sense of God's glorious presence (those words sound sooo puny) as John was speaking. And the atmosphere in RC's church was very warm and friendly - I found him and his wife and others in the church to be very approachable and personable.

IMHO, we can't blame these leaders for the actions of their spiritual groupies (not talking about the members of the church but the people who just sort of hung out there and didn't take responsibility for their lives - kind of like winos).......

blessings
tal

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Tal:

I couldn't agree with you more. Having met all of the same as you have and also being in a position where I could be around these individuals and hear the heartbeat of the Lord in them, I have to agree.

Actually some of them I have more than met and have had ample opportunity to spend a lot of time around them. I still find it hard though that it was permitted to go on.

Not everything that has gone on in "the river" has been of God. This is not to say it's all been of the devil. But I would challenge the supporters of the River and of the like movements to listen to the fact that so many people are saying similar kinds of things against some of the practices.

Their voices deserve to be heard.

___________________

Pastor Tom Stipe, foreword from "A Counterfeit Revival"

It had never occurred to me that I could be involved with anything spiritually destructive. Yet when I reached the lowest spiritual level in my pastoral ministry, that is exactly what had happened. How could I have let things go so far? From my perspective, serving on the board of directors of the Association of Vineyard Churches (AVC) had always been a privilege. My wife and I developed close friendships with the other leaders'. Together we travelled to numerous countries, planted churches, and shared a vision for ministry. Led by a respected national leader, we considered ourselves elders of what was rapidly becoming a new denomination. We maintained a unified sense of mission and purpose as we pursued what we believed God was leading us to do.

One week, during a leadership conference in the mid- western part of the United States, several of us were invited to a private meeting. We were to be introduced to the "prophets" who were slated to have a major impact on the future of our movement. Since we were already enthusiastic about the use of spiritual gifts to enhance contemporary church life, our curiosity spurred us to accept the invitation to this landmark meeting. We entered the room, settled into our seats, and waited to see what the Lord had in store for us.

The prophets began to inform us that in the last days, the Lord was restoring the fivefold ministry of apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, and evangelists to the church. We were challenged to accept the arrival of apostles and prophets because today's church already had plenty of teaching, pastoring, and evangelising. The arrival of the prophets and apostles would lead to the world's last and greatest revival. The prophets revealed that we had been chosen as the people and the movement that would lead Christians into this final display of power in the last days. We were told that one such prophet had been commissioned by God to find the apostolic leadership and apostolic ministry that, linked with the prophetic, would provide the basis for this new surge of endtime anointing. God had revealed to the "prophet" that he and our Association of Vineyard Churches were the chosen ones.

It all sounded downright intoxicating. After struggling with the daily duties of ministry and our fears of inadequacy, this was exactly what we wanted to hear. Being told that our struggles and sacrifices had made us special in God's eyes was a comfort in itself. We clung to the promise that spectacular things would follow the inauguration of this new move of God. We listened attentively to the flattery of our new friends, the prophets. Our scepticism barely peaked above the surface of our consciousness. It disappeared entirely later in the meeting when one of the prophets singled us out and proceeded to reveal, in detail, the secrets of our lives. Now they really had our attention. How could they not be from God? One after another, these accurate "words from the Lord" seemed to be the perfect validation for everything they were proposing. We became completely convinced of the validity of this prophetic anointing. How else could we explain their ability to "see into" our childhoods and personal histories through their prophetic gifting.?

We returned to our local churches with our minds wide open to this new phase in the growth of our movement. During the months that followed, many of us received a plethora of "personal prophecies" predicting our future roles, positions, and successes in God's new movement. There were words of prophecy for our ministries, for their locations and growth, prophecies about the great "restoration" to come and our important part in it. "Seers" would direct people regularly to their 'land of anointing." The recipients of such advice would immediately pack up. and go in faith, confident that the predictions of ministry success would come true. The prophets began telephoning pastors with words straight from God directing staff changes and adjustments in church policy and practice. They anointed individuals to healing ministries and apostolic appointments. Then, instead of waiting for the prophets to call, the pastors began calling the prophets for predictions, instruction, and advice. Ministry musicians and lay people were promised star status if they would remain faithful to the prophetic blueprint unfolded before our movement.

Nevertheless, some of the leaders began to voice concerns and uneasiness. They had seen people uproot their families and travel great distances to the "land of their anointing," fail, and then blame God. Associate pastors and other leaders were wrongly dismissed, indicted, and convicted by nothing more than a dream or prophecy that accused them of some spiritual crime. "Fortune cookie" faith soon became more popular than following God's clear voice in Scripture. Some pastors began raising concerns in board meetings. Even though we were uneasy, we nervously agreed that spiritual gifts don't always operate in human beings in a perfect manner. We thought we could solve the problem by applying one of the movement's most endearing philosophies: "Don't trim the bush until it's had a chance to grow," which means "Let's wait and see what comes of this." We put away our hedge trimmers, and the prophets continued to operate with impunity. After only a couple of years, the prophets seemed to be speaking to just about everyone on just about everything. Hundreds of Vineyard members received the "gift" of prophecy and began plying their trade among both leaders and parishioners.

People began carrying around little notebooks filled with predictions that had been delivered to them by prophets and seers. They flocked to the prophecy conferences that had begun to spring up everywhere. The notebook crowd would rush forward in hope of being selected to receive more prophecies to add to their prophetic diaries. Those identified with healing ministries were holding seminars on formulas and methods for healing prayer, such as finding "hot spots" on the body. Interpreting the meaning of physical sensations or "jolts" in the bodies of those who were prayed over became a necessary part of the healers' "training".

Dreams and their interpretation soon moved to centre stage as prophecy conferences taught devotees to keep a pencil and notebook on their nightstands to write down each dream as it occurred. These were later interpreted for God's message. People lived on the edges of their seats, waiting for the grandiose promises of prophecies to come true. Most waited in vain. Not long after 'prophecy du jour' became the primary source of direction, a trail of devastated believers began to line up outside our pastoral counselling offices. Young people promised teen success and stardom through prophecy were left picking up the pieces of their shattered hopes because God had apparently gone back on His promises. Leaders were deluged by angry church members who had received prophecies about the great ministries they would have but had been frustrated by local church leaders who failed to recognise and "facilitate" their "new anointing.'

After a steady diet of the prophetic, some people were rapidly becoming biblically illiterate, choosing a 'dial-a-prophet" style of Christian living rather than studying God's Word. Many were left to continually live from one prophetic 'fix" to the next, their hope always in danger of failing because God's voice was so specific in pronouncement, yet so elusive in fulfilment. Possessing a prophet's phone number was like having a store- house of treasured guidance. Little clutched notebooks replaced Bibles as the preferred reading material during church services. Some began to fake the shaking and eye fluttering symptoms they had been told were signs of the Holy Spirit coming upon them. They hoped the ministry team would recognise the signs of God and rush to their sides, lifting their hands and praying, 'More, Lord!"


Shaking, laughing, weeping, and eye twitching always ensured that the parishioner would attract the immediate attention of the leaders and their peers. One conference speaker, addressing 8,000 people, discouraged the use of reference books, commentaries, and language tools for sermon preparation. Rather, the pastors were exhorted to determine their Sunday messages through listening for prophecies during long walks with the Lord. Something was dangerously wrong in the movement. One of my own church board members refused to make any decision until his hands got "hot," indicating that his choice was wise. Disturbing symptoms were definitely beginning to show up in my own fellowship.

In my region of denominational jurisdiction, churches began to shrink because evangelism had been replaced by mysticism. People began to complain that church attendance would drop markedly during holiday periods because parishioners were apparently embarrassed to bring their out-of-town relatives to visit such a strange environment. Something bad was happening to the church we had planted fifteen years earlier, and I was beginning to realise that it was my fault. The 'bush" was clearly growing out of control. I had reached the lowest point in my ministry, and I was staring at failure.


One of my earliest pastoral mentors had taught, "When you're not sure what God is saying, go back to what God has already said.' The Bible! What a concept! I had grown weary of studying past revivals, movements, and histories of the church, vainly trying to find justification for what was happening in my own church. It seemed that as a pastor, I had given up what I knew for sure in exchange for what I could never know for sure. It was time to search the Word and get back to basics.

After years of pastoral training, teaching, and preaching, I knew that the bizarre changes in the fabric of our church needed biblical evaluation and correction if our flock was to survive. I was supposed to be the shepherd, but I had become a follower. My pasture was in danger of turning into a dustbowl. Most pastors I know have bouts with insecurity, performance anxiety, and periods when they are unsure that they have made the right ministry decisions. While most might think these bouts of emotional insecurity are rare, they happen every week of the year, between Sundays. One of a pastor's greatest fears should be that he or she has not been diligent to keep the wolves out of the sheepfold. The most effective entry point into the church for any "new" teaching is through the pastor.

I remember well the first time I stepped aside and allowed false teaching in my church. I was told that we had 'quenched the Holy Spirit long enough" and that it was 'now time to give the church back to the Holy Spirit." I was told that the penance for the ecclesiastical felony of "quenching the Spirit" was to include an "anything goes" time during every meeting. Order would be set aside, and chaos was to be invited with prayers like, "Come, Holy Spirit!" This command to Deity was typically followed by a long period of waiting to see what the Spirit would do.

continued next post

A mounting sense of anticipation would grow as we waited for the 'manifestations' to appear. If there was any anxiety, it was dispelled by a liberal application of Matthew 7:9-11: 'Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If you, then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more shall your Father who is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?'

All of this seemed very comforting at the time, but I always wondered how far the magic "Satan Shield" extended- 100 yards of perimeter? Two feet? Was there a time limit, say midnight, for example, before Satan's minions could again return to their normal, attacks? How long did the bread and fish "kryptonite' ward off psychic duplication of God's "voice"? Some of us were suckers for this kind of manipulation. My feelings of guilt were conjured up by suggestions that I had exerted too much human leadership and control in the church. All of my peers were confessing their sin of control and letting go, so I followed suit.

Despite the fact that Scripture nowhere advocates this misinterpretation of Matthew chapter seven, and in fact commands order in the church (I Cor. 14:17-19), chaos reigned in my church because I had come to believe I needed to forfeit my duty to maintain order. I had almost lost my commitment to presenting a clear gospel message to visiting nonbelievers and instead allowed subjectivity to reign over reasoning from the Scriptures. I needed to repent and become a true shepherd again.

As my wife and I prepared to attend what would be our last Vineyard board of directors meeting, we rehearsed what we would say: how we needed to eliminate the swirl of subjectivity that had entered our church; how we needed to get back to the basics of Christian evangelism and discipleship; how we needed to restore Bible study to our members' daily lives. We didn't want to cause trouble. We had formed close friendships with these people, loved them, and considered them an important part of our lives. But we could no longer remain silent concerning the truth.

During the series of meetings, various leadership concerns were raised about the effect "prophetic" influences were having on the core of our theology. Some of the leaders who dared to reveal their misgivings were quickly warned that the "prophet," the "one whose words never fall to the ground,' had supernaturally heard our conversations and would report them to the national leader for disciplinary action. Since 'Big Brother" was watching us, we were forbidden to discuss -these issues with other board members.

Other directors began to share "words" that God had spoken to them for the direction of our movement. One director claimed God had told him that the pure church was the cell church, and that we should abandon public Bible teaching and evangelism altogether for small group meetings. Some heralded the position that real evangelism takes place through "signs and wonders,' when people are attracted to the Kingdom of God through 'demonstrations" of power. Some scorned the idea of evangelistic crusades. Some supported the ministry of the prophets. Others presented evidence regarding the trickery and manipulation often used by the prophets in their meetings.

Finally, after a week's worth of sometimes heated discussion, prayer, and meetings, it was all summed up by the dream someone shared the last night. The dream, related as though it were from God Himself, instructed us to do nothing, to make no decisions, but to 'wait and see." Frustrated, I returned to my own church in Denver. I had just witnessed close friends, co-labourers in Christ, legitimate Christian leaders being 'tossed to and fro by every wind of doctrine." Our corporate ministry seemed like a laboratory test gone awry. The adoption of subjectivity as the primary source of guidance had reduced us to complete ineptitude as pastors and leaders.

What had happened? Why were these Christian men and women "hearing" so many contradictory messages from God? I knew without a shadow of doubt that it was time to begin the process of getting the church God had given me to pastor back to basics. At that moment, truth became more important than relationships. My wife and I spoke with our remaining congregation. We knew that if they would commit to going back to the basics of Christian practice with us, the Word of God guaranteed that the Lord would work more powerfully and more legitimately in our lives than ever before. The congregation agreed.

I went back to teaching the Bible in the most basic fashion I could, verse by verse. When I first announced that we were going to go through the Gospel 'of John for the better part of the year, the response of some was, 'Why the Book of John? I read that when I was a baby Christian.' Others were horrified that I would discourage shaking and twitching "in the Spirit." What had been a church of 4,400 shrank as people left to join the 'holy laughter" movement. My hate mail grew to enormous proportions. Even the movement's leader publicly denounced me, predicting that God would kill me for my 'sin."

God was true to His word in the midst of the storm that our congregation endured during what we later called 'the year of slander.' Within a few months, several hundred people came to a saving knowledge of Christ. Baptisms increased simply because there were new converts to baptise. People's lives were radically changing, and the church was becoming healthy again. Attendance increased almost overnight. Within a year, we added a third service to our Sunday schedule. Currently our congregation is moving past 6,000, and our struggles are with ordinary, normal issues of Christian life. All of this because of the basics. It's really that simple (see Heb. 4:12-13; 2 Kings 22:8-13; Jer. 15:16).

Books like Counterfeit Revival must be written and published. You see, in the day of the apostle Paul, the false prophets, heretics, and legalists resisting his ministry needed to go to considerable effort to inject the opiate of false doctrine into the church. Long travel by horseback or on foot, the heat, dust, months away from home, painfully slow methods of copying documents, all contributed to making the spread of false doe- trine difficult. Not so today-the wonders of the modern world make the spread of false doctrine deceptively thorough and quick. The urgency of biblical correction is never more pressing than now.

Back in 1517, a huge contingent of the 'church had fallen to the ruse of a carnal monk named Johann Tetzel. He conned the believers of his day into purchasing indulgences to guarantee escape from purgatory. An outraged Martin Luther nailed his ninety-five theses of dispute on the Wittenberg door, challenging the brokerage of salvation through the exploitation of people's spiritual insecurities and illiteracy. Perhaps we have come again to such a dark age with the insurgence of false revivalism.

If this is the day, then Counterfeit Revival is the document. This book will be a wonderful tool in the hands of those who love true spiritual gifts and their brothers and sisters in Christ who have been confused by the influences of false revivalism. I know. I was there and back, thank God! Only as the church experiences true reformation will it experience true revival.

Mattacious said:

After three years of being in the thick of the Toronto blessing our Vineyard assembly in Scarborough ( East Toronto) just about self destructed. We devoured one another, with gossip, backstabbing, division, sects criticism etc. After three years of ‘soaking,’ praying for people, shaking, rolling, laughing, roaring, ministering at TACF on their prayer team, leading worship at TACF, preaching at TACF, basically living at TACF we were the most carnal, immature and deceived Christians that I know. I remember saying to my friend and senior pastor at Scarborough Vineyard Church in 1997 that ever since the Toronto Blessing came we have just about fallen to bits! He agreed!

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Sounds to me like carnality was exposed...
within the Scarborough church...

Thanks for bringing this up. I'll start shaking in my boots now, waiting for the next deception to come along and whisk us all away out of God's grace...

riverpastor said:

Sounds to me like carnality was exposed...
within the Scarborough church...

Thanks for bringing this up. I'll start shaking in my boots now, waiting for the next deception to come along and whisk us all away out of God's grace...

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RP

I don't believe we should be shaking in our boots. I know that God is bigger than any thing we face. I just feel very deeply that what is being said against the manifestations deserves some sincere attention. The contrary words are not coming from fringe dwellers, but from people who have truly been in very deep and very far.

I know that a lot of good is in the River. But I also know that there's some unhealthiness in there, too. It is very hard for people who are in it to see it until they get their eyes and ears opened.

Perhaps change from within is what is needed, not a disbanding of the movement.

Questioning Christian said:

RP

I don't believe we should be shaking in our boots. I know that God is bigger than any thing we face. I just feel very deeply that what is being said against the manifestations deserves some sincere attention. The contrary words are not coming from fringe dwellers, but from people who have truly been in very deep and very far.

I know that a lot of good is in the River. But I also know that there's some unhealthiness in there, too. It is very hard for people who are in it to see it until they get their eyes and ears opened.

Perhaps change from within is what is needed, not a disbanding of the movement.

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I don't know, biblically it seems only demon possessed people would shake.

lismore said:

No it doesnt!

but If i had to choose between woof woof or going through something that would bore the rear end off a blue bottomed flea, I would take the woof woof.

What I cant understand is that when God gave the prophet Micah a revelation sign in owl noises that is acceptable, but some folks automatically say this must be from the devil for now? HELLO! Its in the bible! (Which is more than I can say for church buildings or vicars in batman costumes)

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Let me get this straight. Because it says in a remote scripture in Micah (in context) – … that this gives churches license to behave in the looniest way possible by imitating owl moans and jackal howls?


Give us a break, Lis, you’re stretching scripture way too thin. Mentally unbalanced people do these sorts of things in hospital wards everyday. They may do it in your church, too.

~Jim

Was Stipe referring to the Kansas city prophets?..That happened @ 15+ years ago,........
another thing were Vineyard WAS involved for a while , but pulled away from cause of certain personalities not wanting to submit to leadership, and wanting to do their own thing.I loved Wimbers mode of allowing the bush to grow, than trim back the bush for hopes of better growth.Don't throw out the baby with the bath water analogy.
People say they want real revival , but don't like the package it keeps coming in.Of course its gonna attract the fleshly people trying to show boat or prove theirselves in a wrong manor, trying to look spiritual.Why focus on the flakey , and look to the real lives that were changed, healed ,delivered, & restored..there is/was alot of good that went along with those revivals for a while.It seems once God moved on, certain people wouldn't move on with God, and keep trying to keep that now expired move alive.
Even Charles Finney and earlier reformers/revivalist had flacky manifestations to deal with and judge if it was the Lord.I never barked like a dog , and have no desire to, but I wouldn't throw out a move of God because of a few flacky people or manifestations.Things like this give us better decernment to know the real from the false.I remember in Toronto when roaring like a lion was starting to happen.
Someone had a word that referrenced this with a prophet anointing..what happened next..alot of fleshly(or new) people wanting to be something for God thought if they roared, that means they are prophetic.
..once again I'm willing to put up with that for the experience of the real thing.
....In Christ Shawners

Dear brother Paul Gowdy:
Thank You!
I know it must have been hard for you to write this. I see your heart in the post you have made. Oh that there would be a true revival in all our Pentecostal ranks. One based solely on the Word of God!

Acts 20:32 "So now, brethren, I commend you to God and to the word of His grace, which is able to build you up and give you an inheritance among all those who are sanctified.

The Word of God is able to build us up and give an inheritance. We as Pentecostals have chased the outpouring, signs and wonders far too long. We have taken what we have called "the move of the Holy Ghost" only to disconnect with the Word of God itself!

Ephesians 5:24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.
25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her,
26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word,
27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish.

Hebrews 13:8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.
9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace,

Colossians 2:18 Let no one cheat you of your reward, taking delight in false humility and worship of angels, intruding into those things which he has not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,
19 and not holding fast to the Head, from whom all the body, nourished and knit together by joints and ligaments, grows with the increase that is from God.

If we can't find it in the Word, let us not become partakers of it! Our only true guide map is the Word of God.

Thank you my brother for having the courage to speak out. You asked for forgiveness for your part! I extend to you my love and acceptance. Please keep on keeping on!

Maharg said:

One things struck me as I was reading the OP. It mentions the unforgiveable sin as attributing the works of satan to those of the Holy Spirit. Is this the correct interpretation? I've never really properly understood what the unforgiveable sin is and have always been concerned that I might have comitted it without knowing it and be doomed already. Given this interpretation, it would mean I have committed this sin. As a child, I remember I used to always feel guilty unless I was studying in my time off school and I believed it was God wanting me to work hard. It was only when I got older and had contact with other Christians that I realised that it was the devil who was pushing me into striving rather than getting a true and healthy balance between work and rest. even now, I'm not always able to discern the Holy Spirit's guidance and get it wrong somrtimes.

I know it's a little off topic but can anyone shed any light on what is the correct interpretation of the unpardonable (unforgiveable) sin?

Thanks,

maharg

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I wanted to answer your question about the sin.

Matthew 12:30 "He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.
31 "Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men.
32 "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

Jesus doing the work of the Holy Spirit was said to be of the devil! This is blaspheming of the Holy Spirit, however is not all the information we have! Yes, it is the unforgiveable sin to those who knowingly do it!

1 Timothy 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord who has enabled me, because He counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry,
13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
14 And the grace of our Lord was exceedingly abundant, with faith and love which are in Christ Jesus.

Blaspheming of the Holy Spirit can be forgiven when done in ignorance. The Apostle Paul is the example of it.

Some of the Pharisee who blasphemed did it knowingly!

John 11:47 Then the chief priests and the Pharisees gathered a council and said, "What shall we do? For this Man works many signs.
48 "If we let Him alone like this, everyone will believe in Him, and the Romans will come and take away both our place and nation."
49 And one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said to them, "You know nothing at all,
50 "nor do you consider that it is expedient for us that one man should die for the people, and not that the whole nation should perish."

I hope this answers your question. You may pm me if you have more question on this issue.

I was a Vineyard pastor during those years, and visited Toronto a couple of times during the early Blessing years. For me, it was truly a blessing -- God's power was very evident, and in the early days, it was pastored well.

By the time Vineyard separated from TACF, a number of us had similar concerns, and while I didn't observe animal craziness in Toronto during my visits, the stories coming back -- even from the most gushing supporters -- got weirder and weirder. Like many in Canada, we were not happy with the way Vineyard removed TACF, but at the same time, I recognized that it was the best decision, of not carried out well.

And as the stories of gold dust and fillings started to happen after TACF left, I was glad that Vineyard had already separated. And when the Latter Rain teachings became more obvious (like the Kansas City Prophets earlier), I was even more glad that TACF was no longer part of the Vineyard.

For me personally, I WAS blessed by the presence of the Holy Spirit during "the renewal years", which made it a source of grieving to see how bizarre and off-track the Blessing went. I would love to see a similar move of the Spirit again in my lifetime, but like Paul Gowdy, I would want us to be much more intentional about how it is pastored, discerned, and weighed by God's Word.

Yep, and for years the fire has been burning in Glasgow Elim and our guest speaker last night was Steve Long the senior pastor of TACF. I have seen things quieten down in the last couple of years and a desire in many to give God their all.

Some of the problems I have seen with these outpourings was that when these outpourings take place people will go to them hoping to bring back the annointing. No won't work what God gave them it was for them. Go there enjoy the moving of the Spirit. Don't try to take it back with you. Get in your car cry your way home and seek God for what He has for you.

Plus I have seen people leave their homes and move to those places hoping that God would bless them just to be disappointed. Stop that, stay where you are and seek God for what He has for you.

BTW any of you looked much at Revival History, I have looked at a fair amount of it.- http://www.ruachfellowship.org/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=58

Can you sit there with a straight face and so easily dismiss what Tom Stipe wrote? He in fact wrote in fairly recently.

Does NOTHING he says have any merit whatsoever???

Shawners said:

Was Stipe referring to the Kansas city prophets?..That happened @ 15+ years ago,........
another thing were Vineyard WAS involved for a while , but pulled away from cause of certain personalities not wanting to submit to leadership, and wanting to do their own thing.I loved Wimbers mode of allowing the bush to grow, than trim back the bush for hopes of better growth.Don't throw out the baby with the bath water analogy.
People say they want real revival , but don't like the package it keeps coming in.Of course its gonna attract the fleshly people trying to show boat or prove theirselves in a wrong manor, trying to look spiritual.Why focus on the flakey , and look to the real lives that were changed, healed ,delivered, & restored..there is/was alot of good that went along with those revivals for a while.It seems once God moved on, certain people wouldn't move on with God, and keep trying to keep that now expired move alive.
Even Charles Finney and earlier reformers/revivalist had flacky manifestations to deal with and judge if it was the Lord.I never barked like a dog , and have no desire to, but I wouldn't throw out a move of God because of a few flacky people or manifestations.Things like this give us better decernment to know the real from the false.I remember in Toronto when roaring like a lion was starting to happen.
Someone had a word that referrenced this with a prophet anointing..what happened next..alot of fleshly(or new) people wanting to be something for God thought if they roared, that means they are prophetic.
..once again I'm willing to put up with that for the experience of the real thing.
....In Christ Shawners

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The time when Stipe wrote the comments doesn't invalidate their TRUTH. It was true back then, and it is still true now.

Questioning Christian said:

Can you sit there with a straight face and so easily dismiss what Tom Stipe wrote? He in fact wrote in fairly recently.

Does NOTHING he says have any merit whatsoever???

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QC,
yes some of what he say's has merit.But to imply that Vineyard , or most of Vineyard held to those extremities is rediculuos.Thats why Bickle ,Cain,Joner and others aren't part of Vineyard anymore (some never were ) .I thought John Wimber did a excellent Job of giving the move a God a chance to grow , and then address concerns to bring order to it.Like Toronto the leaders at KCV had there own agenda and parted ways with Vineyard. .............................In Christ Shawners

I miss a old worship tape I had from one of those old KCV worship confrencess with David Ruiz.I don't hold to every teaching from these moves of God , believe me I'm considering becoming Orthodox (EO) if I can resolve were the Gifts fit in with the ancient church....................In Christ Shawners

Jim M said:

Let me get this straight. Because it says in a remote scripture in Micah –

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Let me get this straight....................you dont like it so its remote

No matter how much all you 'God in a box' types dont like it, the Holy SPirit came upon Micah and he hooted.

God can work outside your preconceived box