How do you view giving?
Ideally, 10% of your income?
Ideally, 10% + offerings?
Freewill, as God impresses?
BFAIdeally, 10% + offerings?
Freewill, as God impresses?
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The Tithing Thread . . .
- Thread starter Byfaithalone1
- Start date
I believe in the biblical doctrine of tithing(10%) and an offering(5%). However, I have more than a few questions about the location of the "storehouse".
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I share your question about "storehouse." I sense that, too often, this ends up being defined as "your local congregation" or "the denomination that pays your pastor's salary." Not sure this can be supported Biblically.
Quick question on your post -- Is tithing a personal belief (i.e. something you personally feel convicted to do), or is it your general view that all believers should follow the old covenant guidelines relating to tithes?
BFA
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BFA,
Thank offerings and freewill offerings as the Spirit moves our hearts, but also the fatherless and widows and needy are to be remembered as the Spirit moves us.
The "tithe" involves adversarial relationships concerning from whom we receive our wealth and to whom we owe the tithe. But no one begins with this understanding.
Joe
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At this point, it is a personal blief. More than even my questions about the storehouse, I detest the scare tatics used in "collecting" tithes. I believe it is a part of our individual faith walk. However, I also believe that some advantage is taken because the organization needs to be supported.
Now, traditional in the SDA church, you know. it is the offering that stay at the local church and the tithe are remitted beginning at the local conference, through the Unions and eventaully to GC. LOADS of questions about the "path" those funds take.
Now, traditional in the SDA church, you know. it is the offering that stay at the local church and the tithe are remitted beginning at the local conference, through the Unions and eventaully to GC. LOADS of questions about the "path" those funds take.
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BFA,
Under the "new covenant" history through Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the tithe came from the spoils of warfare with the adversary.
Under the "old covenant" history through Moses, who is the adversary?
The "adversary" is a God created necessity, and therefore, no railing accusation should be brought against him, though he was created to destroy and then he will be destroyed.
Out of this destruction a "remnant" will be saved. The "remnant" is the total family of Israel, the "overcomer" of the angel of darkness, he who was from the beginning, the liar and murderer.
Abraham, Isaac and Jacob did not receive a "tithe" from anyone.
Joe
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I agree with you. For a time, I was on the staff of a Methodist Church. Every year, we did an annual "campaign" that included a month of sermons on tithing, concluding with the congregants completing "Commitment" cards. The last year that I was there, they brought in a 3rd party consultant to help them do a big campaign to raise money for a building project. We spent 2 months on stewardship, along with video presentations and expensive methods to compel people to give. It would be an understatement to say that I was uncomfortable.
I hear you. I had those questions too. I was once a teacher and principal within SDAism and I was dismayed by how few resources we had to do our jobs. It was clear that the local giving was going to the GC and very little of it was coming back to us so we could do the good things we were called to do.
BFA
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BFA,
Approximately 15 years past, this type of practice in the Methodist denomination came to my attention on the local level. Several members of the local and only Methodist church had at one time been raised in the Southern Baptist congregation and so this practice was appalling to them and surprising to me.
This was before the day of internet, but I asked the Lord to grant me to understand the Scriptural doctrinal basis that was used for this practice. As the elements unfolded it was agonizing to see the development of sin that is involved in the thinking of those who practice this and similar habits in the name of Jesus.
Since the internet has been given unto us it is much easier to research the history of the practices of those who profess the name of Jesus Christ and the Scriptural basis for those practices. There is always a Bible text that justifies the practices, though it may be mixed with much other human wisdom and laws.
Matt 7:20-23
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity. KJV
It is a fearful warning.
Joe
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Here's something for you to consider Princess... I too had trouble giving tithes to an apostate conference.
The story in the Bible of the woman giving two mites, all she had, to the corrupt Jewish temple yet being exalted by Christ to the disciples; and the quote below from sister White, clarifies the true purpose of our tithes. It is an act of obedience and gratitude for what God has blessed us with... God does not need our money, He wants our obedience in all things.
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I don't believe my conference is apostate. It just didn't exist when, "Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse,......." was written. I'd rather tithe to theministries withinmy church. Not that I don't tithe to the conference at all, but I don't give them the full 10%.
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OK. Here's another question relating to the topic of this thread:
Q: Should a person's eligibility to serve in a lay position (such as elder, deacon or teacher) be based on how much money they give to the denomination?
BFA
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BFA,
The history of Barnabas with the early church is an example of this situation. His dissembling at Antioch with Peter and its influence upon the gentile believers brought trouble into the camp at Antioch, since Barnabas was highly respected for his generosity.
Deceiving and being deceived is the principle in this matter. When we deceive with the use of "money", then the deception returns upon our own head.
Joe
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No. Especially, in these times. Many people might have more time to serve, but it might be because they are unemployed. So churches in places that were hit the hardest with the job crunch, will over look quite a few who are qualified, commited and otherwise eligible to serve?
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This morning I was searching for another prophetic witness and this testimony through Moses stood up before my eyes. As we believe Moses' writings it prepares our hearts to hear the teaching of Jesus.
Deut 26:5-27:1
5 And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:
7 And when we cried unto the LORD God of our fathers, the LORD heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression:
8 And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:
9 And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey.
10 And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:
11 And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.
12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:
14 I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.
15 Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
16 This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
17 Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. KJV
Joe
Deut 26:5-27:1
5 And thou shalt speak and say before the LORD thy God, A Syrian ready to perish was my father, and he went down into Egypt, and sojourned there with a few, and became there a nation, great, mighty, and populous:
6 And the Egyptians evil entreated us, and afflicted us, and laid upon us hard bondage:
7 And when we cried unto the LORD God of our fathers, the LORD heard our voice, and looked on our affliction, and our labour, and our oppression:
8 And the LORD brought us forth out of Egypt with a mighty hand, and with an outstretched arm, and with great terribleness, and with signs, and with wonders:
9 And he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey.
10 And now, behold, I have brought the firstfruits of the land, which thou, O LORD, hast given me. And thou shalt set it before the LORD thy God, and worship before the LORD thy God:
11 And thou shalt rejoice in every good thing which the LORD thy God hath given unto thee, and unto thine house, thou, and the Levite, and the stranger that is among you.
12 When thou hast made an end of tithing all the tithes of thine increase the third year, which is the year of tithing, and hast given it unto the Levite, the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, that they may eat within thy gates, and be filled;
13 Then thou shalt say before the LORD thy God, I have brought away the hallowed things out of mine house, and also have given them unto the Levite, and unto the stranger, to the fatherless, and to the widow, according to all thy commandments which thou hast commanded me: I have not transgressed thy commandments, neither have I forgotten them:
14 I have not eaten thereof in my mourning, neither have I taken away ought thereof for any unclean use, nor given ought thereof for the dead: but I have hearkened to the voice of the LORD my God, and have done according to all that thou hast commanded me.
15 Look down from thy holy habitation, from heaven, and bless thy people Israel, and the land which thou hast given us, as thou swarest unto our fathers, a land that floweth with milk and honey.
16 This day the LORD thy God hath commanded thee to do these statutes and judgments: thou shalt therefore keep and do them with all thine heart, and with all thy soul.
17 Thou hast avouched the LORD this day to be thy God, and to walk in his ways, and to keep his statutes, and his commandments, and his judgments, and to hearken unto his voice:
18 And the LORD hath avouched thee this day to be his peculiar people, as he hath promised thee, and that thou shouldest keep all his commandments;
19 And to make thee high above all nations which he hath made, in praise, and in name, and in honour; and that thou mayest be an holy people unto the LORD thy God, as he hath spoken. KJV
Joe
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Thanks for the information on that which God said to those whom He brought out of Egypt.
BFA
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My understanding of Scripture leads me to conclude that God is interested in the heart. Persons who make judgments based on outward signs such as giving may be making a rush to judgment regarding the things that occur in the heart.
BFA
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BFA,
It is spoken to all of Abraham's seed that belong to Christ. The others turn away from hearing the Word spoken from out of the fire. Those who continue in the Word spoken from out of the fire, their mouths are shut and they do not promise.
John 5:46-47
46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words? KJV
Rev 15:3-4
3 And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
4 Who shall not fear thee, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy: for all nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy judgments are made manifest. KJV
Joe
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I understand and respect that this is your opinion.
My reading of Deuteronomy 26 does not lead me to the same conclusion. Rather, I note that the audience of the passage are those who could say "he hath brought us into this place, and hath given us this land, even a land that floweth with milk and honey."
BFA
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BFA,
I hope that each one of us who confess the Lord Jesus can say the same in spirit as we confess that the life which we now live in the flesh, we live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved us and gave himself for us, so that all that we do may done unto the Lord and those capacities wherein we labor are confessed as the gifts of the Spirit of grace, not because of our own righteousness, but gifts through grace only, to minister to the elect children of the Lord Jesus.
2 Cor 10:3
3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: KJV
Joe
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