The Time Bubble Theory

time · Feb 26, 2004

"The Egyptians had a story "
They had lots of things including sacred cows. Moses got his direction, and inspiration from the Man.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"It is also how it would work if there were more to the universe than what we see"
I don't think there's too much doubt there is other dimensions, like the spirit world. But the main point I was trying to address is the here and now, and why some people got a screwed up idea of billions of years.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"Go for it"
Right after solving the mysteries of the deep space universe.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"He's much more of a liar if Genesis 1 and 2 are literal than if they aren't. Does He expect us to believe that Day, night, morning and evening all existed before there was a sun?"
Piece of cake! You may notice He made light first, before the sun, moon, and stars. So for a couple days that served as morning, and evening. He didn't lie at all. In fact the Bible says "God cannot lie".

Arikay · Feb 26, 2004

Considering there are around #123 posts here and we have yet to see any evidence. I will take this to mean, Never.
Good luck with that.

time said:
"Go for it"
Right after solving the mysteries of the deep space universe.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"This isn't "lack of faith", it's reasoning faith at its best. It's trying to understand the message God intended, instead of trying to force a message on God"
Not believing God at His word, and feelin we have to compromise and accept an old world, and such to me is not great faith.
"Without faith in a literal Bible, it's impossible to please Biblical literalists, but that isn't who we are interested in pleasing, is it?"
Apparently not.
"The way you are advocating isn't seeking, it's dictating to God"
Dictating to God? Believing His acount in His Own words is dictating? I didn't make the stuff up, it was Him who dictated it!

time · Feb 26, 2004

"I'm curious - how do you explain events such as supernovae that we've observed (and we've observed several) in our supposed time-bubble that match in duration with the predicted length of time (a few days to a few weeks) our models predict?"
Good point. Now how far away for example would one be, that was observed, say the furthest one?

time · Feb 26, 2004

"Instead, what this guy is assuming, apparently, is that the farther away we are the closer to the speed of light we are moving and thus, the more time dilates for us."
No, it would have to do with whether you are in the God created dimension, or sphere, that is living under time. There, all things are limited and affected by it. Wheras, If you were not limited by time, such as God, who created it, then time would not exist. So, from this time limited bubble then, we would look out and natuarally assume that time was essential everywhere, as it is here. So, far or close, outside of the sphere, things would not take 'time'.
So forget the speed of light, it only goes so far in a year because a year is a measurement of time. Take away the time, and you don't need a year for the light to get somewhere.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"The Flood was falsified by 1831. Rev. Adam Sedgwick"
Well the problem here is probably that this fellow 'falsified' the flood using false assumptions, and false information. The falsifying Rev doesn't seem to be mentioned much by evolutionists I've heard. Never actually. I'm glad you at least consider him to have been, as the communists used to say, a 'useful idiot'.

funyun · Feb 26, 2004

time said:
"The Egyptians had a story "
They had lots of things including sacred cows. Moses got his direction, and inspiration from the Man.

Sacred cows? Are u getting Hinduism mixed up with ancient Egyptians? And anyway, what's your point? Christians pretty much regard the dove as sacred. And ancient Egyptian myths r no more illogical than ancient Hebrew ones.

time said:
"It is also how it would work if there were more to the universe than what we see"
I don't think there's too much doubt there is other dimensions, like the spirit world. But the main point I was trying to address is the here and now, and why some people got a screwed up idea of billions of years.

Same could be said for the outdated, scientifically debunked idea of 6,000 years.

time said:
"He's much more of a liar if Genesis 1 and 2 are literal than if they aren't. Does He expect us to believe that Day, night, morning and evening all existed before there was a sun?"
Piece of cake! You may notice He made light first, before the sun, moon, and stars. So for a couple days that served as morning, and evening. He didn't lie at all. In fact the Bible says "God cannot lie".

How could light serve as days when the rotation of the Earth is what days r measured from? The stupidity of that theory baffles me. What the Bible says is irrelevant, as it is a biased source. Want me to start quoting the Vedas?

time · Feb 26, 2004

"And anyway, what's your point? Christians pretty much regard the dove as sacred. And ancient Egyptian myths r no more illogical than ancient Hebrew ones"
Point is the Egyptians did,t part the sea, send the cloud, give the commandments, etc, God did. So about all the Egyptians seemed to do was get in the way. Until God made them a deal they couldn't refuse, to let His people go. So why harp on anything those pagan has beens would have thought? (besides, while in the desert the hebrews made a sacred cow, I think something they learned in Egypt probably-not from Hindus)
"How could light serve as days when the rotation of the Earth is what days r measured from? "
The cosmic light shone from a source. The rotation was still there, hence, morn & night. Simple.

funyun · Feb 26, 2004

time said:
"And anyway, what's your point? Christians pretty much regard the dove as sacred. And ancient Egyptian myths r no more illogical than ancient Hebrew ones"
Point is the Egyptians did,t part the sea, send the cloud, give the commandments, etc, God did. So about all the Egyptians seemed to do was get in the way. Until God made them a deal they couldn't refuse, to let His people go. So why harp on anything those pagan has beens would have thought? (besides, while in the desert the hebrews made a sacred cow, I think something they learned in Egypt probably-not from Hindus)

The only source u have that any of this occured is the Bible. As I said earlier, it is irrelevant as evidence because it is biased. You seem to look down on the Egyptians, one of the earliest civilizations and empires. Keep in mind much of what the ancient Egyptians did has transferred to our civilization. Case in point: the calendar. The Egyptians worked out an accurate 365-day calendar long b4 the Julian calednar was made. The Sumerians, another early, pagan civilization (whose descendants later enslaved the Jews as well) came up with a system of numbers based on 60. Guess where that is applied in our society today. U guessed it: time.....Time. So don't quite be so quick to judge ancient civilizations u obviously know nothing about with the exception of what's in Bible, which is unproven mythology.

time said:
"How could light serve as days when the rotation of the Earth is what days r measured from? "
The cosmic light shone from a source. The rotation was still there, hence, morn & night. Simple.

Wow, Time. Wow. U did go to school, didn't u? U do have an education? First off, nowhere in the Bible does it say the light shone from a source. U made that up. Secondly, how could "the rotation", as u put it still be there if Earth wasn't made yet? The sun does rotate, but that's not how we get the measurement for days. The Earth rotates and that is how we get the measurement. You don't calculate days from the rotation of the light source. Unless, of course, u think the sun revolves around the Earth, which I wouldn't put past u. In that case, the revolution of the sun around the Earth would count for a day. This is all elementary school-level stuff, Time.

Aggie · Feb 26, 2004

Piece of cake! You may notice He made light first, before the sun, moon, and stars. So for a couple days that served as morning, and evening. He didn't lie at all. In fact the Bible says "God cannot lie".

Most physical interactions can't exist without light, since it is photons--the same particles that make up light--that convey the interaction between charged particles. Atoms can't exist without light, so light had to exist from day 1.

And other than that, you're dodging the question. Day is the period of time that a portion of the earth is rotated towards the sun, and night is when it's rotated away from it. Morning and evening are between the two. God could not have "separated the light from the darkness" without the sun, because even though the earth could not exist without light, day and night would not be any different from one another without the sun--they certainly wouldn't "separate the light from the darkness".

I'm assuming you know that the reason why the day is light and the night is dark is because a given part of earth recieves light directly from the sun during the day, while at night the only sunlight is whatever can be reflected off the moon. The sun is the only reason why day and night exist as a division between when it's light out and when it's dark.

You aren't dealing with the other contradictions in the thread I linked to, either. Do you think plants were made before humans, as said in Genesis 1? Or after humans, as said in Genesis 2? Remember not to use the NIV for this, because it alters the text to avoid this problem.

All of these contradictions can be avoided by not taking Genesis 1 and 2 literally, but that seems to be something you don't want to do.

Wheras, If you were not limited by time, such as God, who created it, then time would not exist. So, from this time limited bubble then, we would look out and natuarally assume that time was essential everywhere, as it is here. So, far or close, outside of the sphere, things would not take 'time'.

I'm not sure who you think you're fooling here. Saying that time does not exist for God is an ambiguous phrase--it is true in the sense that God is not limited by it, but this fact does not remove this limitation for the universe. Time exists in the universe, and the only reason it doesn't for God is that He's outside it.

So to say that this means that time does not exist INSIDE the universe is to misinterpret your own ambiguous phrase. As far away as it is possible to see in space and time, (a few billion years) time can be observed to operate in the same way that it does in the solar system. These limitations ONLY go away for someone who is outside the universe.

fragmentsofdreams · Feb 26, 2004

lucaspa said:
I haven't heard this interpretation before. It sounds interesting. That would make Genesis 2 a match for Genesis 1 being an attack on the Babylonian pantheon. A kind of symmetry in how the editor put Genesis together: refuting the religions of Israel's closest neighbors.

Can you run us thru it in more detail, Fragments?

I ran across this in 101 Myths of the Bible by Gary Greenberg. The revelent myths are #20 and #21.

Egyptian Coffin Text 80 contains a myth about She and Tefnut, the children of Atum, the Heliopolitan Creator. She represents life while Tefnut represents moral order. Atum is instructed to eat from Tefnut (moral order). The Egyptians believed that if they lived a life of moral order, they would be granted eternal life by Osiris. Part of the message of Genesis 2-3 is that eternal life comes not from knowledge of moral order but through following God.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"Day is the period of time that a portion of the earth is rotated towards the sun, and night is when it's rotated away from it."
Now, yes. Then, God had made the light before the sun, so the sun was not the measure, as it is now of a day. This created light served the purpose for the few days or so befoe the sun was made. As the earth revolved, the sunrise would have been the time when it rotated into the light. Evening, as now, when it started to face the other way. As far as some atomic process needed, since He made the thing to start with, I'm sure the cosmic light would have been fortified with all the atomic vitamins that were needed! After all I don't think He's dumb.
"God could not have "separated the light from the darkness" without the sun, because even though the earth could not exist without light, day and night would not be any different from one another without the sun--they certainly wouldn't "separate the light from the darkness"."
I think I just covered that. Where the light coming from one direction served the same purpose.
"Do you think plants were made before humans, as said in Genesis 1"
--Absolutely!! Gen 1 is the order of creation. Gen 2 goes back and brings out more detail of things that already happened. They were not being re-created, or deja vu, or a new creation, etc. Obce you understand that chap 2 is a cinch! Now if we get hung up on some aspect of what was already done in 1, then we get real confused real quick. Eve wasn't made the same time as Adam, and it foe example goes back, and fleshes out the story more. Now if we really want to get hung up we can. Just look at how the fish and animals in passing, in chap 2 were refered to as being made out of the ground. One definition of that word, is earth is "ground as earth's visible surface land, territory, country". We know that some things were made, as chap 1 says, out of the sea. here's a bit I cut from a site)--[The proper way to translate this is God had formed,...This is not the record of another creation, or a contradictory account of that given in Gen. 1, but a sub-section evidently given to reveal the intelligent genius of Adam, thus demonstrating the necessity of finding a mate for him who would partake in every way of his genius and ability, a problem that God solved by creating woman out of Adam himself http://www.studylight.org/com/bcc/view.cgi?book=ge&chapter=2&verse=19#Ge2_19
[The Douay-Rheims Bible] ----And the Lord God having formed out of the ground all the beasts of the earth, and all the fowls of the air, brought them to Adam to see what he would call them: for whatsoever Adam called any living creature the same is its name
http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=e...rhe&oq=ge%202:19&new=1&sr=1&nb=ge&ng=2&ncc=2]
"All of these contradictions can be avoided by not taking Genesis 1 and 2 literally, but that seems to be something you don't want to do"
No, not in this life, nor the next.
"Time exists in the universe, and the only reason it doesn't for God is that He's outside it" True time does exist in the Universe. At least in our part of it, according to this theory. Now if we think of God as being 'outside the universe' that is a pretty far away God. I think of Him as in my heart. I think of Him as close enough to answer prayers. I think of Him as having a wonderful city of gold that He will also live in, and that will soon come to our earth. Then we have all His angels, and spirit helpers, also very close by. Like our guardian angel for example. It is hard to understand time really for us at all. It is also hard to understand time not being applicable in God's tommorow-the eternal NOW!

fragmentsofdreams · Feb 26, 2004

time said:
"The Egyptians had a story "
They had lots of things including sacred cows. Moses got his direction, and inspiration from the Man.

But his direction was to guide the Hebrews which included correcting the misconceptions that they picked up while living with the Egyptians.

fragmentsofdreams · Feb 26, 2004

lucaspa said:
That would explain the two trees but having the focus only on one! Neat. And you're right. As in Genesis 1, it means we have lost the all important historical context! Which god is this and do you have a source?

I felt the same way when I read it. It all fits together so well.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"As I said earlier, it is irrelevant " (bible)
Say it all you want, don't really matter much.
"The Egyptians worked out an accurate 365-day calendar "
Glad you are impressed by them.
"Secondly, how could "the rotation", as u put it still be there if Earth wasn't made yet? "
You should realize the earth would not rotate till after it was made. Do you need me to tell you that?
"You don't calculate days from the rotation of the light source"
No, as the earth revolved we'd have the morn & eve, so?
"This is all elementary school-level stuff, Time"
It's you who seems to have a problem with it.

time · Feb 26, 2004

"But his direction was to guide the Hebrews which included correcting the misconceptions that they picked up while living with the Egyptians"
so?

SanDiegoAtheist · Feb 26, 2004

time said:
"I'm curious - how do you explain events such as supernovae that we've observed (and we've observed several) in our supposed time-bubble that match in duration with the predicted length of time (a few days to a few weeks) our models predict?"
Good point. Now how far away for example would one be, that was observed, say the furthest one?

Hmmm, well, without looking all of them up, one we observed in 1998 was about 150 million light years distant. During it's explosion, it was the brightest supernova ever observed (would have to be, for us to see it from that kind of a distance).

We've also observed them much closer - Supernova 1987A was the closest recent supernova (since we've been using telescopes anyway), located about 150 thousand light years away in the Large Magellanic Cloud. We detected high energy neutrinos from it (only a few, needless to say from that distance) 3 hours before the light became visible - which matches the predictions that our theories on supernovae made before Sn1987A provided an empirical test of those results (the neutrinos are created as the core collapses in on itself, just before the shockwave from the gravitational collapse rebounding as matter is compressed to the limit explodes the star).

We've been able to watch this one now for nearly 20 years as the expanding gas shell from the supernova moves further away from the core of the supernova (the Hubble has some beautiful shots of it. We'd be able to SEE if the gas shell's expansion didn't match predictions (especially since your theory posits massive orders of magnitudes of difference between "our" time and "elsewhere" time. If our time were that much "slower" than the rest of the universe, from our point of view, it would appear that the shell would expand from the supernova remnant at many times the speed of light - instead, we see it expanding at only a fraction of the speed of light - which is what we expect.

Cheers,

The San Diego Atheist

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