The stumbling block for atheists.

dad · Apr 7, 2017

lesliedellow said:
The man is truly unbelievable. There is not one aspect of the modern world, whether it be washing machines, cars, computers, aircraft, radio, television, MRI scanners, cameras, and so on and on, where the laws of physics were not employed in bringing them about.

Furthermore, there is ot one aspect of the modern world that resulted from, directly or indirectly, the nature in the past that you kowtow to. No camera, no radio, no nothin..anywhere...ever. Hahaha

Trying to associate your religion of blind faith with real objects is a desperate act of rebellion against reason.

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
Trying to associate your religion of blind faith with real objects is a desperate act of rebellion against reason.

So Adam managed to mess up God's universe good and proper, even to the point of changing its physical laws. Quite some achievement for a mere creature, up against the Lord of all Creation.

AV1611VET · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
So Adam managed to mess up God's universe good and proper, even to the point of changing its physical laws. Quite some achievement for a mere creature, up against the Lord of all Creation.

Unless the Lord of all Creation entrusted His creation to His mere creature.

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

AV1611VET said:
Unless the Lord of all Creation entrusted His creation to His mere creature.

Adam's, or, more accurately, mankind's, commission in Genesis 1 sounds fairly limited to me. Even now, it is beyond our power to go messing with the laws of nature. Which is perhaps just as well.

AV1611VET · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Adam's, or, more accurately, mankind's, commission in Genesis 1 sounds fairly limited to me.

That's because Adam turned it over to Satan.

Remember Satan?

Lucifer?

The guy scientists call King Cyrus?

Anyway, ~~Ha-Satan~~ Satan tried to give it back to God in the wilderness; but He said NO.

Matthew 4:8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
Matthew 4:9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
Matthew 4:10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.

If you read the book of Revelation, God is going to come back and take it from Satan by force.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
So Adam managed to mess up God's universe good and proper, even to the point of changing its physical laws. Quite some achievement for a mere creature, up against the Lord of all Creation.

? Ever read the bible? What I should toss out the account of Adam and Eve because you somehow find it incredulous?

The world, last time I checked was not the entirety of creation either! How about heaven? It seems that the world was used as a training ground for us. We (some of us) learn that sin was not so cool after all. The clouds of witnesses in the heavens see this lesson also.

Look at it this way, if a teacher in a class room makes a mess with a baking soda volcano or some art project, does that mean the 'lord' of the classroom has destroyed the classroom forever, the school, the school system, and the universe?

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
? Ever read the bible?

Sure have. Many times. That is why it says "Calvinist" below my avatar.

Look at it this way, if a teacher in a class room makes a mess with a baking soda volcano or some art project, does that mean the 'lord' of the classroom has destroyed the classroom forever, the school, the school system, and the universe?

It sure does if he/she has managed to change the laws of nature in the process.

AV1611VET · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Sure have. Many times. That is why it says "Calvinist" below my avatar.

I don't see any prophet named "Calvinist" in the Bible.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Sure have. Many times. That is why it says "Calvinist" below my avatar.

OK, so clear it up then as to what you believe about Adam as the first created man? No use dancing here.

It sure does if he/she has managed to change the laws of nature in the process.

? Are you suggesting Calvinists do not know so much as the Father or Son? As for changes on earth, that is why Jesus taught us to pray 'Thy kingdom come'. We pray for it to be different. You thought God was in some sort of cosmic rut, and afraid to change things for us?

I sometimes wonder at the perceptions some church people have on these forums, as to who and what God is. Some seem to think of Him as some benevolent ghost with a Santa like smile, hiding in a dense cloud when the universe and man was formed. A strange lurking hide and seek god, that claims credit for this as some 'creation' who gave us Scripture that was really just a pack of fables and stories and poetry with no reality, or validity. No real personal God that is known as a genuine friend that is near. I really don't know that god. The Jesus I know (and it doesn't matter if some have a god with the same name) created man, and woman from the man, and the world, and the stars and the sun, and moon and all things. The Jesus I know is the Jesus of the bible, who came down to earth from heaven to die for us so we could be actually, really saved. So that we will one day actually, really go to a real place with Him and our saved loved ones, and the believers of all ages.
Not some cosmic clown that predestined everything, that we don't really now.

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
OK, so clear it up then as to what you believe about Adam as the first created man? No use dancing here.

At some point some hominid must have qualified as the first homo sapien in God's estimation.

As for changes on earth, that is why Jesus taught us to pray 'Thy kingdom come'. We pray for it to be different.

Since when has praying for God's kingdom had anything to do with changing physical laws? You know what kingdom means I take it? I will give you a clue - "United Kingdom".

Some seem to think of Him as some benevolent ghost with a Santa like smile

Well, what do you know, I agree with Dad about something.

Not some cosmic clown that predestined everything, that we don't really now.

Oh, I don't know though; he seems to have been describing his own conception of God.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
At some point some hominid must have qualified as the first homo sapien in God's estimation.

OK, thanks for admitting that.

Since when has praying for God's kingdom had anything to do with changing physical laws? You know what kingdom means I take it? I will give you a clue - "United Kingdom".

Since when does heaven coming to earth happen under current laws?

Oh, I don't know though; he seems to have been describing his own conception of God.

A god I do not know. Nor do I read of this god in the bible.

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
Since when does heaven coming to earth happen under current laws?

Kingdom means God's kingly rule. Nothing to do with changing the laws of physics.

A god I do not know. Nor do I read of this god in the bible.

You need to read more carefully then.

Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

I spent many years trying to tell myself that those, and many other, passages couldn't mean what they appeared to say.

Michael · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Kingdom means God's kingly rule. Nothing to do with changing the laws of physics.

You need to read more carefully then.

Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

I spent many years trying to tell myself that those, and many other, passages couldn't mean what they appeared to say.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
Kingdom means God's kingly rule. Nothing to do with changing the laws of physics.

I also means living with Jesus and angels, eternal life, no need of the sun, gold that is see through, a city so high, the space station would crash into it's basement, being like Jesus was after He arose from the dead, trees with 12 different kinds of fruit each year, no sickness, and a lot more.

That doesn't fit this universe and laws, sorry. Nothing here lasts forever for starters.

You need to read more carefully then.

Proverbs 16:9 "A man's heart deviseth his way: but the Lord directeth his steps."

John 6:65 "And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father."

Acts 2:47 "Praising God, and having favour with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved."

1 Peter 2:8 "And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed."

I spent many years trying to tell myself that those, and many other, passages couldn't mean what they appeared to say.

You should have listened to yourself. You were right, they don't mean what you now seem to think they mean.

Whosoever will, let him come. Whosoever is athirst, let him come. To him that comes to God, He will in NO WISE cast out. He doesn't ask for our predestination tag first. His destination is available to all.

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
I also means living with Jesus and angels, eternal life, no need of the sun, gold that is see through, a city so high, the space station would crash into it's basement, being like Jesus was after He arose from the dead, trees with 12 different kinds of fruit each year, no sickness, and a lot more.

That doesn't fit this universe and laws, sorry.

"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"

So there is no need for the laws of physics in this universe to change then.

Whosoever will, let him come. Whosoever is athirst, let him come.

And who comes? Those who have been called by God. You find me an account of a conversion anywhere in Acts where it is not said to have been God's doing. They don't choose God. God chooses them.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
"And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away"

So there is no need for the laws of physics in this universe to change then.

Then..no. We are not there yet though.

And who comes? Those who have been called by God.

And who is that? Anyone that wants to! If we decide, then we are called.

You find me an account of a conversion anywhere in Acts where it is not said to have been God's doing. They don't choose God. God chooses them.

Of course it is God's doing. Why would Christ die if it was all pre arranged?

lesliedellow · Apr 8, 2017

dad said:
And who is that? Anyone that wants to! If we decide, then we are called.

"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

So how does somebody "want to" before they are even born? It is God who chooses them, not the other way round.

dad · Apr 8, 2017

lesliedellow said:
"according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will"

So how does somebody "want to" before they are even born? It is God who chooses them, not the other way round.

He knew what we would chose. We have choice.

Kylie · Apr 9, 2017

dad said:
He knew what we would chose. We have choice.

You don't have a choice if the outcome can only be one way.

lesliedellow · Apr 9, 2017

dad said:
He knew what we would chose. We have choice.

Arminians who try to use that line of argument miss the point that there would be no need for God to predestine anybody to X if he knew that they were going to choose X anyway.

Even atheists can see what Arminians don't want to see.

The stumbling block for atheists.

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