The story as I understand it

RealDealNeverstop · Jan 19, 2009

Jane_the_Bane said:
They tried to hide AFTER they gained knowledge of good and evil.

Their disobedience gave them knowledge of good and evil but again, that doesn't prove knowing good and evil is necessary to know right from wrong. If I remember correctly, God gave the commandment even before Eve was created so it could be argued The Fall was purely Adam's fault. But, the narrative clearly paints Eve as the criminal and Adam as innocent victim of deception and even then God holds him accountable.

CreedIsChrist · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Their disobedience gave them knowledge of good and evil but again, that doesn't prove knowing good and evil is necessary to know right from wrong. If I remember correctly, God gave the commandment even before Eve was created so it could be argued The Fall was purely Adam's fault. But, the narrative clearly paints Eve as the criminal and Adam as innocent victim of deception and even then God holds him accountable.

A woman must learn quietly and submissively.Moreover, I do not allow a woman to teach or to usurp authority over a man. Instead, she is to be quiet.For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And it was not Adam who was deceived. It was the woman who was deceived and became a lawbreaker. However, women will be saved by having children, if they continue to have faith, love, and holiness, along with good judgment. - 1 Timothy 2:14

Adam was partly responsible, for being seduced by eve. But it was through a woman that sin came into the world. That is why women have the pangs of birth.

Adam was deceived, but through his wife's means, and therefore she is worthily for this reason subject to her husband, and ought to be. The preceding verse showed why a woman should not usurp authority over the man. this shows why she ought not to teach. She is more easily deceived, and more easily deceives

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
....
5. God allows this punishment to continue for a few thousand years where millions of humans are doomed to suffer a single eventuality: eternal punishment in hell.

6. After a time God decides to change the game, and issues a Get Out Of Jail Free card in the form of a personal savior. No retroactive option is provided any of the previous players.
....

Is this pretty much it or have I missed something here?

No.

Yes

Have you read Hebrews 11?

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called, obeyed and went forth to a place which he was destined to receive as an inheritance; and he went, although he did not know or trouble his mind about where he was to go. 9 By faith he dwelt as a temporary resident in the land which was designated in the promise in a strange country, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs with him of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city which has fixed and firm foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.

13 These people all died controlled and sustained by their faith, but not having received the tangible fulfillment of [God's] promises, only having seen it and greeted it from a great distance by faith, and all the while acknowledging and confessing that they were strangers and temporary residents and exiles upon the earth.
14 Now those people who talk as they did show plainly that they are in search of a fatherland (their own country).
15 If they had been thinking with [homesick] remembrance of that country from which they were emigrants, they would have found constant opportunity to return to it.
16 But the truth is that they were yearning for and aspiring to a better and more desirable country, that is, a heavenly [one]. For that reason God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

(AMP)

MaxP · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Q. A: In a perfect, sin-free world how could a wrong choice even be possible?

Free will and that.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?

Click to expand...

Yes. It's a continual choice of all mankind.

Q. C: Is innocent ignorance of the card justification for suffering the consequences of that ignorance?

Click to expand...

The unwittingly ignorant aren't automatically condemned to Hell.

Q. D: Is the failure to recognize the import of the card the fault of the student, or is it the consequence of deficient/inadequate instruction?

Click to expand...

Both.

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

RealDealNeverstop said:
Stop equating "Perfect" with "Bad choices are not possible." It is only in an imperfect world where choice does not exist. If no posssible choice can have dire consequences then there is no true choice.

So there is no such thing as a choice involving two equally good alternatives. One has to be wrong. Interesting notion.
To me, "perfect" means " being entirely without fault or defect," (Merriam-Webster), and in the given context a possible wrong choice does not equate to being perfect. As for those who question my use of the term, "perfect," I give you a few examples

Garden of Eden - Created For Mankind
The Garden of Eden is described in Genesis, Chapters 2 and 3. The Lord created the Garden specifically for Adam, the first man, whom God had formed. In Genesis 2:8-9, we read: "The LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden, and there He put the man whom He had formed. And out of the ground the LORD God made every tree grow that is pleasant to the sight and good for food." Some believe the Garden was atop a mountain, or perhaps it was an outlet for freshwater springs, because we read, "a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. " (Genesis 2:10)
Thus, the Garden of Eden was perfect. It offered both beauty and sustenance, being home to every tree "that is pleasant to the sight and good for food, " and a source of freshwater from the river to drink. As for man, God "put him in the garden of Eden to tend and keep it. " (Genesis 2:15)
source

Genesis 1:31 -- And God saw all that he had made and behold it was very good.
The Garden of Eden was the time, place and space created by God in which man was to encounter Him, and walk with Him and each other, in Unity, on a daily basis.
The environment He created within the Garden (the place) of Eden (the space) was specifically designed so as to promote and enhance that encounter. In essence, the Garden of Eden was, in fact, the "First Temple
It was a perfect environment
source

Thus, the Garden of Eden was perfect
source

The symbolism of the Garden of Eden as a place of perfect harmony before it was marred by human disobedience
source

Actually, this falls on your ignorance. Scripture states those who are unaware of Christ are judged based on the knowledge they do possess.

As I've already pointed out, this is not the claim of other Christians. Others claim that to be saved from hell one MUST be reborn in Christ, or some such thing.

You're missing quite a few theological points. It looks like you're intentionally taking aspects of the creation and fall of human stories to paint Christianity as some sort of global masochistic organization with the head honcho being a sadist.

I'm only taking the claims of Christians to what I consider their logical consequences. They often make claims that directly conflict with each other. Not my fault that their theology is so contradictory.

Honestly, at this point I can't tell if the OP is a bait and switch or if there is a sincere ontological search of Christianity.

See any switch yet?

MethodMan said:
ARQ - Why? Choice - God created us with the ability to live sin free - we did not - still don't.

Then let's dispense with the idea that A&E were set down in a perfect world, as many claim it to be. And what's with this "us"? I was not given any choice in the matter. According to Christian theology I was born a sinful creature. A&E were the only ones who had such an ability, and according to people like zaac they were destined to "choose" to disobey god.

Q. B: Is it just to punish anyone or anything for something they had absolutely nothing to do with?
False Premise

Have to do better than that.

How do you know that?

It's what Christians have claimed

I didn't find the instruction Book to difficult to understand. Ever read it?

Good for you, I guess.

Crankitup said:
For he was looking forward to the city which has fixed and firm foundations, whose Architect and Builder is God.

These people all died controlled and sustained by their faith, but not having received the tangible fulfillment of [God's] promises, only having seen it and greeted it from a great distance by faith, and all the while acknowledging and confessing that they were strangers and temporary residents and exiles upon the earth.

But the truth is that they were yearning for and aspiring to a better and more desirable country, that is, a heavenly [one]. For that reason God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them

Needs explanation.

MaxP · Jan 19, 2009

Washington, it's not even that eating the fruit was evil or wrong, per se, but the evil was in disobeying God's edict.

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

MaxP said:
Free will and that.

I'm talking about the establishment of a wrong option, not the ability to choose it.

Yes. It's a continual choice of all mankind.

Sorry to hear you say that.

The unwittingly ignorant aren't automatically condemned to Hell.

Others dispute this claim. If it doesn't apply to your theology then please disregard.

Both.

After Homer Simpson gets done trying to explain the theory of relativity to Bart. "Hmm, it's obvious that it's partly your fault you don't get it. You have deliberately chosen not to understand."

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

MaxP said:
Washington, it's not even that eating the fruit was evil or wrong, per se, but the evil was in disobeying God's edict.

A distinction without a difference.

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Needs explanation.

What part don't you understand?

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

Crankitup said:
What part don't you understand?

Assuming we're on the same page here, which may not be the case at all, if there was a mechanism in place that allowed one to avoid hell, why the need for a savior?

Jane_the_Bane · Jan 19, 2009

CreedIsChrist said:
Adam was partly responsible, for being seduced by eve. But it was through a woman that sin came into the world. That is why women have the pangs of birth.

Oh, dude, you gotta LOT to learn about human anatomy! That much is for sure!

MaxP · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
A distinction without a difference.

No, the world was perfect. The human was not.

Inviolable · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Obviously this was the game then.

Good insight. Bickering amongst the Christians must happen a lot on these forums. You must have seen it a mile away.
You writing a book or just looking for some personal amusement?

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Assuming we're on the same page here, which may not be the case at all, if there was a mechanism in place that allowed one to avoid hell, why the need for a savior?

Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham. When God said to Abraham He would provide a sacrifice (instead of Isaac), He was speaking of Jesus. Jesus paid the price for those before Him, those contemporaneous and those after.

Matthew 27:48 And one of them immediately ran and took a sponge, soaked it with vinegar (a sour wine), and put it on a reed (staff), and was about to give it to Him to drink. 49 But the others said, Wait! Let us see whether Elijah will come to save Him from death.
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.
51 And at once the curtain of the sanctuary of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52 The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep in death were raised [to life];
53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
54 When the centurion and those who were with him keeping watch over Jesus observed the earthquake and all that was happening, they were terribly frightened and filled with awe, and said, Truly this was God's Son!

*********************************************************************************

I Peter 3:18 For Christ died for sins once for all, the Righteous for the unrighteous (the Just for the unjust, the Innocent for the guilty), that He might bring us to God. In His human body He was put to death, but He was made alive in the spirit, 19 In which He went and preached to the spirits in prison,
20 [The souls of those] who long before in the days of Noah had been disobedient, when God's patience waited during the building of the ark in which a few [people], actually eight in number, were saved through water.

(AMP)

Washington · Jan 19, 2009

Jesus was the fulfillment of the promise God made to Abraham. When God said to Abraham He would provide a sacrifice (instead of Isaac), He was speaking of Jesus. Jesus paid the price for those before Him, those contemporaneous and those after.
50 And Jesus cried again with a loud voice and gave up His spirit.
51 And at once the curtain of the sanctuary of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; the earth shook and the rocks were split.
52 The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep in death were raised [to life];
53 And coming out of the tombs after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.

Okay, the handful who were lucky enough to have achieved sainthood, a mere drop in the bucket, were saved.

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Obviously this was the game then.

There was another pretty important tree in the garden (that appears again in Revelation), the Tree of Life. God was giving them a choice of two trees. He wanted them to choose the Tree of Life. Similarly, from the two choices He gave Israel in Deteuronomy, He wanted them to choose life.

Deut 30:15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil.
16 [If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which] I command you today, to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land into which you go to possess.
17 But if your [mind and] heart turn away and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish, and you shall not live long in the land which you pass over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live
20 And may love the Lord your God, obey His voice, and cling to Him. For He is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Your argument is that God shouldn't have given them (Adam & Eve) a choice to choose the wrong option. You'd prefer they were only able to choose from 'correct options'. The other possibility is that He could have created them in a way that would make them like robots, incapable of doing anything else other than what He commanded/programmed them to. All of which was possible. He could have done this. He could have forced them to obey, forced them to love and serve Him, but the problem with that is it could never be real love.

God wanted them to freely choose to trust and love Him. Such a decision can only be made when real choices are available, like the choice to disbelieve and disobey.

Jane_the_Bane · Jan 19, 2009

Crankitup said:
There was another pretty important tree in the garden (that appears again in Revelation), the Tree of Life. God was giving them a choice of two trees. He wanted them to choose the Tree of Life. Similarly, from the two choices He gave Israel in Deteuronomy, He wanted them to choose life.

Deut 30:15 See, I have set before you this day life and good, and death and evil.
16 [If you obey the commandments of the Lord your God which] I command you today, to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments and His statutes and His ordinances, then you shall live and multiply, and the Lord your God will bless you in the land into which you go to possess.
17 But if your [mind and] heart turn away and you will not hear, but are drawn away to worship other gods and serve them,
18 I declare to you today that you shall surely perish, and you shall not live long in the land which you pass over the Jordan to enter and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessings and the curses; therefore choose life, that you and your descendants may live
20 And may love the Lord your God, obey His voice, and cling to Him. For He is your life and the length of your days, that you may dwell in the land which the Lord swore to give to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob.

Your argument is that God shouldn't have given them (Adam & Eve) a choice to choose the wrong option. You'd prefer they were only able to choose from 'correct options'. The other possibility is that He could have created them in a way that would make them like robots, incapable of doing anything else other than what He commanded/programmed them to. All of which was possible. He could have done this. He could have forced them to obey, forced them to love and serve Him, but the problem with that is it could never be real love.

God wanted them to freely choose to trust and love Him. Such a decision can only be made when real choices are available, like the choice to disbelieve and disobey.

All of this hinges upon the premise that God did not know what their choice would be. With omniscience, the whole scenario pretty much crumbles, as the outcome was well-known before it even occurred.

"Why did you leave the gun on the table when you KNEW your adolescent son would hurt himself with it?"
"Well, I hoped he would heed my command and not touch it. It was a test."
"Yeah, but you KNEW he'd disobey."
"Uh... yeah. But still... I wanted him to obey."

It just doesn't make any sense.

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Jane_the_Bane said:
All of this hinges upon the premise that God did not know what their choice would be. With omniscience, the whole scenario pretty much crumbles, as the outcome was well-known before it even occurred.

"Why did you leave the gun on the table when you KNEW your adolescent son would hurt himself with it?"
"Well, I hoped he would heed my command and not touch it. It was a test."
"Yeah, but you KNEW he'd disobey."
"Uh... yeah. But still... I wanted him to obey."

It just doesn't make any sense.

Well some would argue against His omniscience in the sense of foreknowledge of everything but let's assume He is omniscient & omnipotent. Having these attributes doesn't necessarily dictate that He be a slave to them. What about His sovereignty? Isn't He able to choose when, where and under what circumstances He exercises His omniscience?

If there was to be a relationship of mutual trust, how could He trust them if He knew they were going to fail? I'd prefer to think of God's omniscience in the sense that He knew what the outcomes would be depending on which choice they made.

MaxP · Jan 19, 2009

People without Christ can make it to Heaven in the same manner as those without Him.

Crankitup · Jan 19, 2009

Washington said:
Okay, the handful who were lucky enough to have achieved sainthood, a mere drop in the bucket, were saved.

Several sources in the Ante Nicene library indicate thousands. The Gospel of Nicodemus mentions 12,000 but of course it's not canonical, and the precise number isn't really irrelevant.

However many it was, it wasn't ALL of them;

Mt 27:52 The tombs were opened and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep in death were raised [to life]

The main thing I wanted to clear up was the erroneous idea that no provision had been made for people who had died prior to Christ's death and resurrection.

The story as I understand it

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