The Statue of Mary

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

Polycarp1 said:
Hpwever, when the New Testament says "Scripture" it means the Old Testament: .

Actually the passage below is proof that Peter acknowledged the writings of Paul as scripture. This passage even sheds light on the practice in the Church of reading and discerning scripture. Peter is acknowledging that some people twist scripture even in his day!

2 Peter 3:15-16
[15] And count the forbearance of our Lord as salvation. So also our beloved brother Paul wrote to you according to the wisdom given him, [16] speaking of this as he does in all his letters. There are some things in them hard to understand, which the ignorant and unstable twist to their own destruction, as they do the other scriptures.

Rhamiel · Mar 5, 2009

simonthezealot said:
The plain things are easy to understand...justification sanctification glorification propitiation are the key points to Christianity and the essential understanding of these are consistent across 90% of reformed/protestant theologies...

by reformed do you mean Calvinist or any maintream protestant theology born in the reformation?

MoNiCa4316 · Mar 5, 2009

simonthezealot said:
The plain things are easy to understand...justification sanctification glorification propitiation are the key points to Christianity and the essential understanding of these are consistent across 90% of reformed/protestant theologies...
Look what Paul said...
If any man[SIZE=+0] think himself[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] to be[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] a prophet[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], or[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] spiritual[/SIZE][SIZE=+0], let him acknowledge[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] that[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the things[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] that I write[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] unto you[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] are[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] the commandments[/SIZE][SIZE=+0] of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=+0]. [/SIZE]

first prove that Paul wrote what you think he wrote, then use that verse to support your argument.

the part in bold just tells me that the reformers were arrogant enough to think that they can understand Scripture better than 1500 years of Church history, the early Church Fathers, the disciples of the Apostles, all the Saints and martyrs.

I keep on coming back here, lol...

I'm going to unsuscribe.

nice talking to you, bye. God bless.

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

benedictaoo said:
Dave watch this.... what how effective this is.

See all my pretty scripture verses?

I have shown you with scripture that i am right and you are not... what's the problem?

I have shown you the scripture... you can't argue with scripture.

You have shown a bunch of scripture that concludes nothing. Catholic apologists are the worst at stringing pages of scripture together out of context. That page is nothing but smoke and mirrors written by a desparate apologist who has no conclusive proof for his position against the clear teachings of the direct word of God.

The Apostles could teach inspired teachings orally. they had the prophetic word by the grace of God.

They wrote scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit so we could recall their teachings once they were gone.

Read 2Peter Chapter 1.

Peter addresses this exact issue.

Christ and the apostles taught orally, but no non eyewitness to Christ can bear witness to him in that way.

So we have apostolic teachings in scripture.

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

benedictaoo said:
All the good work we can do... it does not necessarily mean that scripture is the sole rule of faith..

Click to expand...

If it makes you complete and ready for every good work then it is the sole rule of faith.

There isn't any work or practice that isn't included in the scope of the word every or complete.

To be inspired by God means it is true and free of error. God doesn't make mistakes and is not the author of confusion.

simonthezealot · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
This is what Iraneaus said in response to heretics.
notice how he's talking about the early Church - when there was only the Catholic Church and no denominations. See how there was UNITY? no confusion at all... this same unity exists NOW, today, in the Catholic Church, just as it did then. It's only the denominations, which rely on their own PERSONAL interpretation of Scripture, that are in DISunity - a fruit of the devil, not of God. Those who rely on the Church's interpretation of Scripture, are all in communion with one another. Notice Iraneaus talked about the CHURCH in response to heretics, not about sola scriptura!

Since your claiming unity 100% I think i'll start a thread on St Ireneaus showing you how different he was compared to Romes theology... Care to join in?

simonthezealot · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
I don't understand you at all. Scripture doesn't interpret itsself. If it did, there would be NO argument about what it means! Yet we have 30,000+ denominations out there!! why?

This is a lie monica and i've shown you that already using catholic apologists studies... Stop it! You are bearing false witness.

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
DD2008 said:

I took a course about the early Church at university and my prof was a Protestant. We read a work by Iraeneus where he argued against the gnostic heretics. He said, they use Scripture to support their arguments, but we - the Church - know WE are right, and not them; you know why? He said because we have the Apostolic teaching..apostolic succession..unity in the Church. Our teachers are successors of the Apostles, that is how we know that the Church is right and the gnostics are wrong.
So I'm sorry but that source is mistaken.

Click to expand...

Your professor is mistaken. What made the Church right against the gnostics is having the actual apostolic scripture inspead of the uninspired and forged gospel of Thomas.

There is no prophetic word in anyone but a direct apostle of Christ. A Roman Catholic bishop can be just as wrong as the gnostic if he was relying on the uninspired gospel of Thomas.

but it doesn't say that we don't need the Church to interpret Scripture correctly!

Click to expand...

You need the Holy Spirit to interpret scripture correctly! He is the Spirit of truth and is the Spirit that inspired the scriptures to begin with.

there's no confusion at all in the official teaching of the Catholic Church. Look at the FRUITS. The Church is one. It's in unity. Protestantism is thousands of denominations, no unity at all. WHO is the author of unity, and who is the author of disunity

Click to expand...

I don't see any real unity in the Catholic Church. Most Catholics don't know the scriptures at all. Nor do they know what their Church really teaches. Many are scared to leave it because they think they will go to hell. Outside of North America Catholicism is rampant with idolatry run unchecked and little or no understanding of the actual gospel. Here are some testimonies of ex cahtolic priests regarding these things: http://www.carm.org/religious-movements/roman-catholicism/testimonies-ex-roman-catholic-priests

In the disciplines of the Church that actually submit to the authority of scripture there is a communion of spirit in knowing the Lord. Unity is a spiritual thing not a physical thing where people submit to the false traditions of men.

Click to expand...

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
This is what Iraneaus said in response to heretics.
notice how he's talking about the early Church - when there was only the Catholic Church and no denominations. See how there was UNITY? no confusion at all... this same unity exists NOW, today, in the Catholic Church, just as it did then. It's only the denominations, which rely on their own PERSONAL interpretation of Scripture, that are in DISunity - a fruit of the devil, not of God. Those who rely on the Church's interpretation of Scripture, are all in communion with one another. Notice Iraneaus talked about the CHURCH in response to heretics, not about sola scriptura!

Against Heresies (Book I, Chapter 10)

Unity of the faith of the Church throughout the whole world.
1. The Church, though dispersed through our the whole world, even to the ends of the earth, has received from the apostles and their disciples this faith: [She believes] in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all things that are in them; and in one Christ Jesus, the Son of God, who became incarnate for our salvation; and in the Holy Spirit, who proclaimed through the prophets the dispensations of God, and the advents, and the birth from a virgin, and the passion, and the resurrection from the dead, and the ascension into heaven in the flesh of the beloved Christ Jesus, our Lord, and His [future] manifestation from heaven in the glory of the Father to gather all things in one, Ephesians 1:10 and to raise up anew all flesh of the whole human race, in order that to Christ Jesus, our Lord, and God, and Saviour, and King, according to the will of the invisible Father, every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth, and that every tongue should confess Philippians 2:10-11 to Him, and that He should execute just judgment towards all; that He may send spiritual wickednesses, Ephesians 6:12 and the angels who transgressed and became apostates, together with the ungodly, and unrighteous, and wicked, and profane among men, into everlasting fire; but may, in the exercise of His grace, confer immortality on the righteous, and holy, and those who have kept His commandments, and have persevered in His love, [NO OSAS!!!] some from the beginning [of their Christian course], and others from [the date of] their repentance, and may surround them with everlasting glory.

2. As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith, although scattered throughout the whole world, yet, as if occupying but one house, carefully preserves it. She also believes these points [of doctrine] just as if she had but one soul, and one and the same heart, and she proclaims them, and teaches them, and hands them down, with perfect harmony, as if she possessed only one mouth. For, although the languages of the world are dissimilar, yet the import of the tradition is one and the same. For the Churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor those in Gaul, nor those in the East, nor those in Egypt, nor those in Libya, nor those which have been established in the central regions of the world. But as the sun, that creature of God, is one and the same throughout the whole world, so also the preaching of the truth shines everywhere, and enlightens all men that are willing to come to a knowledge of the truth. Nor will any one of the rulers in the Churches, however highly gifted he may be in point of eloquence, teach doctrines different from these (for no one is greater than the Master); nor, on the other hand, will he who is deficient in power of expression inflict injury on the tradition. For the faith being ever one and the same, neither does one who is able at great length to discourse regarding it, make any addition to it, nor does one, who can say but little diminish it.
..... the Catholic Church possesses one and the same faith throughout the whole world, as we have already said.

http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0103110.htm

The gnostics were not part of the Church and used different writings they called scriptures.

The truth that the Church has always held up is the gospel as recorded in the authentic scriptures that God used the Apostles to write.

That's common knowledge.

All disciplines within the Church use the same scriptures today. So the Church is of one accord that the gospel is true.

You are comparing apples to watermelons. Totally different situation. Totally different subject.

The scriptures are essential in preserving the message. Without them it would have been lost long ago.

Which is spotlighted by the Reformation in that it highlighted that Marian devotions are not scriptural. Many an illiterate Roman Catholic priest before the reformation thought they were scriptural untilthey were shown otherwise.

The RCC has spent the last 500 years trying to invent enough excuses to make the practice look legitimate even though it is not supported in scruipture.

That is why the Roman Catholic does the things you are doing now. Thying to tear down the authority of God's word and make a case for a mandate to follow something other than scripture.

There is nothing else. God left us scripture for a reason, and idolatry is condemned in it.

DD2008 · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
I'm sorry I'm losing patience in this thread so I should go. I've said all I wanted to say.

Look guys.. I don't understand what you are saying. Just being honest here. I don't understand how you can say that your own personal way of reading the BIble is more true than how Christians have always read it since the early Church days. I don't understand why you're soo convinced that YOUR interpretation is from God, and theirs is from man. And I also don't get how you think Scripture interprets itself, when there are so many conflicting doctrines out there. If it interpreted itself, surely the early Church would see Scripture the same way you do? SINCE IT DOESN'T, who is right? You, or the early Church?

Please think about this.

Goodbye

God bless.

Our own personal way?

You are trying to defend doctrines that aren't even in there! How could we interpret what's not there?

The bible says it makes man complete for every good work. It condemns idolatry. It gives no mandate to pray to anyone other than God.

Where does it say it's ok to pray to anyone other than God or build statues to them and bow down and kiss them..etc?

It doesn't!. All the Catholic can do to try to defend their position on this is to try to undermine the authority of God's scriptures themselves! Which is a wicked thing to try to do at the very core.

simonthezealot · Mar 5, 2009

Rhamiel said:
by reformed do you mean Calvinist or any maintream protestant theology born in the reformation?

Both.

lilrose · Mar 5, 2009

MoNiCa4316 said:
Eastern Orthodox are not Catholic.

the rest, - we're all one under the Pope, we all have the same dogmas. We're all in communion with each other. As a Roman Catholic, I can go to a Byzantine Catholic church and receive the Eucharist there. We're all one.

These are different rites.. not denominations.

The reason rites exist is because the Church allows there to be various liturgical expressions and for people to keep their traditions. (the East).

But we're all united as one, visibly, not just invisibly.. we're all called Catholic, we're all in communion, we all believe in the Pope and the same teachings.

Actually an Orthodox can receive communion in The RC...and the pope labeled the Orthodox the "lungs" of the RC so it sounds like you have many different denominations within the Catholic Church and many in The Orthodox Church...so your church seems to have differerent denominations which are labeled as "rites".

benedictaoo · Mar 5, 2009

simonthezealot said:
[/INDENT]This is a lie monica and i've shown you that already using catholic apologists studies... Stop it! You are bearing false witness.

Your 262 number is equally (a bigger) a lie, so when you stop it.

benedictaoo · Mar 5, 2009

DD2008 said:
You have shown a bunch of scripture that concludes nothing. Catholic apologists are the worst at stringing pages of scripture together out of context. That page is nothing but smoke and mirrors written by a desparate apologist who has no conclusive proof for his position against the clear teachings of the direct word of God.

The Apostles could teach inspired teachings orally. they had the prophetic word by the grace of God.

They wrote scripture inspired by the Holy Spirit so we could recall their teachings once they were gone.

Read 2Peter Chapter 1.

Peter addresses this exact issue.

Christ and the apostles taught orally, but no non eyewitness to Christ can bear witness to him in that way.

So we have apostolic teachings in scripture.

exactly how I feel about the verse you post.

NOTHING speaks on it's own, no scripture speaks on it's own. That's my point. Its the lens we see them through.

Examine the lens.

benedictaoo · Mar 5, 2009

DD2008 said:
If it makes you complete and ready for every good work then it is the sole rule of faith.

There isn't any work or practice that isn't included in the scope of the word every or complete.

To be inspired by God means it is true and free of error. God doesn't make mistakes and is not the author of confusion.

*sigh* .... you are arbitrarly assuming a very rigid meaning to this that creates a false dichotomy. You are basically saying scripture is the only thing that can perfect a person.. it's not. GRACE makes us complete Dave. Jesus perfects us.

lilrose · Mar 5, 2009

simonthezealot said:
[/indent]This is a lie monica and i've shown you that already using catholic apologists studies... Stop it! You are bearing false witness.

That is simply a rumor started to validate the RC's existence....

benedictaoo · Mar 5, 2009

simonthezealot said:
Get real Bene...a BIGGER lie, sheesh leave it a works based promoter to weigh in like that.

a works based promoter? flame much, zealot?

benedictaoo · Mar 5, 2009

lilrose said:
That is simply a rumor started to validate the RC's existence....

Sooooo, how many branches of Evanglicism, Protestantism, non denominationalism would you say is accurate?

simonthezealot · Mar 5, 2009

lilrose said:
That is simply a rumor started to validate the RC's existence....

Yeah i realise that... whats funny is the source they claim to get that from states the protestant denomination at 9000ish and catholic at 242 orthodox in the700's and the overall of EVERY denomination that has Christ in its doctrine whether false religion or not counted in the 30,000 (including those listed above) thats why when people say 30,000 they are either bearing false witness or should be prepared to accept therest of that source which says their are 242 catholic denominations.

simonthezealot · Mar 5, 2009

benedictaoo said:
Sooooo, how many branches of Evanglicism, Protestantism, non denominationalism would you say is accurate?

-- Protestants (about 9000)
-- Orthodox (781)
-- Roman Catholics (242)
-- Anglicans (168)
As for specific Protestant non-duplicate (i.e. unique) denominations, you can take the online data available from "World Christian Database" online, the inheritors and updaters of the same WCE data. They give you 9000+ total Christian denominations to work with: deleting out the "Roman Catholics" "Orthodox" "Marginal" and non-Protestant "Independents" (only 3% of those are non-Protestant, 97% are Protestant) from these you are left with 5000+ total unique Protestant denominations. See this link:

A specific list of 5000+ Protestant denominations

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