The State of the Dead

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

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Does it say Material body or Glorified body?

1Jn. 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

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But I want to eat pizza in heaven how can I eat it with my Soul is not possible .

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

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I think I'd rather have a material body, at least a body you could see. I can't imagine living in a world where we are all invisible. Wouldn't it be lonely?

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

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This question is predicated upon the idea that we can be conscious without a body.

We can't.

Humans were designed by God to have a body, one that is either perishable or imperishable, or one that is either mortal or immortal:

"For the perishable must clothe itself with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality." -- (1 Cor 15:53).

The body without the spirit is dead, and the spirit without the body is asleep:

"For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything" -- (Eccl 9:5).

Victory over death/sleep will only occur when we receive a new body:

"When the perishable has been clothed with the imperishable, and the mortal with immortality, then the saying that is written will come true: 'Death has been swallowed up in victory.'" -- (1 Cor 15:54).

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

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Can you hug a soul ? Can a soul eat pizza ?

dreadnought said:

I think I'd rather have a material body, at least a body you could see. I can't imagine living in a world where we are all invisible. Wouldn't it be lonely?

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Was Jesus invisible when He was Resurrected, and went to the Disciples?

Chinchilla said:

But I want to eat pizza in heaven how can I eat it with my Soul is not possible .

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Your Soul is your Flesh, the Old Man, the Sinful Nature, which is dead, it's won't be in Heaven.

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

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Don't you understand the Soul is what died with Christ, it's the Flesh, that is what we were Born Again as New Creations from, old things are passed away, behold all thing have become new.

Newness of life in the Spirit, not the Flesh.

Those who live after the Flesh(Soul) shall die, those who live after the Spirit shall never die.

JIMINZ said:

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Your Soul is your Flesh, the Old Man, the Sinful Nature, which is dead, it's won't be in Heaven.

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Eating something isn't sinful nor only doable by sinful flesh .

Luke 24
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

JIMINZ said:

Your Soul is your Flesh

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Not according to scriptures:

"May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- (1 Thess 5:23).

Human nature is made up three distinct elements: a spirit and a soul and a body.

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

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Well for one thing you are assuming that you know what heaven will be like. Just as heaven is a different reality to our reality (different dimension perhaps), it may be that within heaven there will also be different realities or that from Heaven you can access different realities.
In order to exist or experience some of these other realities that may constitute parts of heaven or can be accessed from heaven, you may need to have a body, a new body of the same type that Jesus has.

If we assume that when you die your soul goes to heaven (if saved) and that 'you' are conscious then it is possible that you may only be able to reside in parts of heaven and that Jesus who has a resurrected body can do things and go places that you cannot until you get your new body, then the full extent of heaven, creation etc is opened up to you.
Until then you will will still enjoy your time in heavens 'holding yard', it will be a paradise in any case, but just that God intends for you to be able to do and go things and places that require a new resurrected body. This may well include the eating of pizza, yay!.

If on the other hand, when you die you (we) cease to be conscious, then you will need to have a body to be conscious again. In this scenario however it is imperative that your soul &/or spirit survive your death and is uniquely you in some way and that it must be used to bring you back and can only be used once to do so. In this case you could just be a little glowing ball inside a glass jar on a shelf in heaven somewhere with a label that says who you are (maybe a best before date? ok, i kid there with the date).
When it comes time for the resurrection God will open this jar, take out the spirit or soul in it and put it into a new body and you are awake again. Its important to note that the spirit or soul in the jar is the sum total of your personality, memories and experiences but is also more than just a 'file' of your information, it has to be 'you' in a real sense otherwise you can not be brought back to life, only a clone of you could.

I personally back the conscious soul outcome because then its really me (and more importantly, really my loved ones) that get resurrected or given new glorified bodies.
Sadly, this also means that the unsaved do go to hell (ie a place without God) to await the judgement and then the second death at which point they will then cease to exist, cease to be conscious and not suffer any more.

Doveaman said:

Not according to scriptures:

"May your whole spirit, soul and body be kept blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." -- (1 Thess 5:23).

Human nature is made up three distinct elements: a spirit and a soul and a body.

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The Spirit is the life force of the Body, the Breath of Life.

The Body is the Physical being, the flesh that hangs on the bones.

The Flesh is the Intellect, Emotions, Understanding, Desire.

The Spirit without the Body has no place to dwell.

The Body without the Spirit is Physically dead.

The Flesh without the Spirit and the Body simply does not exist.

What then was Paul speaking about when he said.

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph. 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col. 3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Chinchilla said:

Eating something isn't sinful nor only doable by sinful flesh .

Luke 24
36 And as they thus spake, Jesus himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

37 But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

38 And he said unto them, Why are ye troubled? and why do thoughts arise in your hearts?

39 Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have.

40 And when he had thus spoken, he shewed them his hands and his feet.

41 And while they yet believed not for joy, and wondered, he said unto them, Have ye here any meat?

42 And they gave him a piece of a broiled fish, and of an honeycomb.

43 And he took it, and did eat before them.

44 And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

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Do you not understand the Flesh being the Physical Body, and the Flesh being the Human Nature are two different things?

ClementofA said:

How would you answer this:

"I often wondered what the purpose was of having our bodies resurrected. Wouldn’t we be perfectly happy in heaven, if our “souls,” which I understood as being our true selves, spent eternity with God and with other people who had been saved from hell? Why have a material body in which to live?"

https://forum.evangelicaluniversalist.com/t/the-afterlife/13153

Click to expand...

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Jesus Christ had not risen then our hope is in vain. Look at these few verses:

1Co 15:16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
1Co 15:17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
1Co 15:18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
1Co 15:19 If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
1Co 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

I point this out because Paul is placing integral importance not on the fact that Jesus died, but on the fact that he was raised. Our hope is in the resurrection, not in death. If Jesus was not raised from the dead, then there would be no resurrection of the dead and those who died in Christ would be forever perished. It really does seem to be that the resurrection wouldn't be this important if at the moment we died, our "true selves" were actually in heaven with Jesus. The entire purpose of plan of salvation is to save mankind from sin and death. Let's assume for one moment that Jesus had died for our sins, but was not resurrected. Lets say his "true self" was just released and went back to heaven at the moment of death. Then we we would still be saved, when we die, we would just go to heaven. Some change would have to be made though, because nothing corrupt can enter heaven and the only time we are made incorruptible is at the resurrection. Point is, why is the resurrection of such critical importance if we would be saved anyway and alive without it?

JIMINZ said:

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The Spirit is the life force of the Body, the Breath of Life.

The Body is the Physical being, the flesh that hangs on the bones.

The Flesh is the Intellect, Emotions, Understanding, Desire.

The Spirit without the Body has no place to dwell.

The Body without the Spirit is Physically dead.

The Flesh without the Spirit and the Body simply does not exist.

What then was Paul speaking about when he said.

Rom. 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Eph. 4:22
That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

Col. 3:9
Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

Rom 8:3,4
3) For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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You said the spirit is the breath of life, the life force of the body. Is this a conscious existence?

drjean said:

I sure hope it's to be able to eat!

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Chinchilla said:

But I want to eat pizza in heaven how can I eat it with my Soul is not possible

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cfyahoo08 said:

Can you hug a soul ? Can a soul eat pizza ?

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Sorn said:

This may well include the eating of pizza, yay!.

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Hungry crowd, today.

I always thought food was for the body, but you people seem to think that the body is for eating food. I need to buy bigger cars so I can burn more gasoline. I need to turn on all the lights in my house so I can use more electricity.

PROPHECYKID said:

You said the spirit is the breath of life, the life force of the body. Is this a conscious existence?

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From the verses and the definitions which I have provided below, you can decide for yourself........Do you personally Have a conscious existence?


Gen. 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Hebrew BREATH: Same as SPIRIT
H5397 Below

Gen. 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen. 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Hebrew BREATH: Same as SPIRIT
H7307 Below



1 Co. 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


SPIRIT: Greek
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590 Greek
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


Zec. 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Ecc. 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


SPIRIT: Hebrew
H7307
רוּחַ
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Pro. 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

SPIRIT: Hebrew
H5397
נְשָׁמָה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
A puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

JIMINZ said:

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From the verses and the definitions which I have provided below, you can decide for yourself........Do you personally Have a conscious existence?


Gen. 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Hebrew BREATH: Same as SPIRIT
H5397 Below

Gen. 6:17
And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die.

Gen. 7:22
All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died.

Hebrew BREATH: Same as SPIRIT
H7307 Below



1 Co. 2:11
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.


SPIRIT: Greek
G4151
πνεῦμα
pneuma
pnyoo'-mah
a current of air, that is, breath (blast) or a breeze; by analogy or figuratively a spirit, that is, (human) the rational soul, (by implication) vital principle, mental disposition, etc., or (superhuman) an angel, daemon, or (divine) God, Christ’s spirit, the Holy spirit: - ghost, life, spirit (-ual, -ually), mind. Compare G5590.

G5590 Greek
ψυχή
psuchē
psoo-khay'
From G5594; breath, that is, (by implication) spirit, abstractly or concretely (the animal sentient principle only; thus distinguished on the one hand from G4151, which is the rational and immortal soul; and on the other from G2222, which is mere vitality, even of plants: these terms thus exactly correspond respectively to the Hebrew [H5315], [H7307] and [H2416]: - heart (+ -ily), life, mind, soul, + us, + you.


Zec. 12:1
The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man within him.

Ecc. 3:21
Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?


SPIRIT: Hebrew
H7307
רוּחַ
rûach
roo'-akh
From H7306; wind; by resemblance breath, that is, a sensible (or even violent) exhalation; figuratively life, anger, unsubstantiality; by extension a region of the sky; by resemblance spirit, but only of a rational being (including its expression and functions): - air, anger, blast, breath, X cool, courage, mind, X quarter, X side, spirit ([-ual]), tempest, X vain, ([whirl-]) wind (-y).

Pro. 20:27
The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.

SPIRIT: Hebrew
H5397
נְשָׁמָה
neshâmâh
nesh-aw-maw'
A puff, that is, wind, angry or vital breath, divine inspiration, intellect or (concretely) an animal: - blast, (that) breath (-eth), inspiration, soul, spirit.

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No, I want you to answer because 2 persons can look at a verse and have a different understanding. Are you saying that the spirit on its own, is a conscious existence. So when the bible says the spirit returns to God who gave it, is it basically like you are living on in spirit form. Would death simply be, you leaving your body?