The Start of the Tribulation

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Yes, vinsight4u, there are four angels that hold back the asteroid that comes with the 1st 4 trumpets. The effects of this asteroid are what the 4 angels are holding back. The fith angel has the revelation of the 144000 Israelites and the multitude who come out of great tribulation. It would seem that the great tribulation is ended at this point just as it declares in Mathew after the Israelites are removed from Judea. The world will cry peace and safety, then sudden destruction (the asteroid) will come upon them.

Why do you ask please?

Re vinsight4u:
You said "Rev. 7 starts a fresh vision."
This is true but it does follow the seals in order. Just as the signs in the sun moon and stars in Mat 24 follow the great tribulation so does the asteroid follow the seals when the 7th seal opens.

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Ludwig van Beethoven said:

I know many people have spoken about the End of Days and the Return of the Lord, and some may have spoken about what I am about to say, but I have to say it anyway.

I'm not going to try to convince anyone that there is no pre-trib rapture. We are going through the tribulation. And I pray that none of you will fall away from the faith when you find out your in the middle of it, not raptured. But if we are going through the tribulation we will need to be ready.

I did NOT come up with this information myself.

For the timing of the tribulation, please look here:


I certainly hope you will read and understand this article, as important as it is.

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According to Jesus in Matt 24, we've been in the tribulation since the desolation of Israel and it's about to be cut short.

According to Jesus in Rev 7, those who are blood-bought have endured the tribulation. We've been blood-bought when we believe in Christ's sacrifice about 2000 years ago.

Rev 7: 14And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

According to Rev 12 and 13, we (who are blood-bought) will be dwelling in heaven before the devil is cast to the earth and sets up his "anti-christ.

Look at this passage:

Tell me, who is "our brethren" who are accused by the devil, who have overcome by the blood of the Lamb, who are dwelling in heaven and saying, "now have come the salvation (which we are waiting for)", just before the devil is cast down to the earth?

Rev 12:10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:
“Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God,
and the authority of his Christ.
For the accuser of our brothers,
who accuses them before our God day and night,
has been hurled down.
11 They overcame him
by the blood of the Lamb
and by the word of their testimony;
they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death.
12 Therefore rejoice, you heavens
and you who dwell in them!
But woe to the earth and the sea,
because the devil has gone down to you!
He is filled with fury,
because he knows that his time is short.”



1 Peter 1:5 who through faith are shielded by God’s power until the coming of the salvation that is ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Thes 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

Hebrews 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many people; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.



scripturetellsthefuture dot com

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On the contrary, the little horn does not come out of the people who destroyed the temple. That was the Roman soldiers. The little horn comes from one of the euopean union.

The one who causes the scrafice to be taken away is not the one who sets it up. That makes no sense. Any more than the king of the north in Daniel 11 could. These are 3 different people and one causes it, arms rise up on the part of another and the little horn does the deed.

I understand what you are saying about the holy covenant and have herad this before, however, the covenant made in Daniel 9:27 has been made. It is the EPNI and was confirmed by Jovier Solana (the high rep for the EU) on Jan 1st, 2007. You don`t have to take my word for it. April 17th will prove it as we arive at 2300 days. Watch the relationship between Syria and Egypt over the next 2 months. Already Egypt is in trouble with their new leader. At the same time he is sticking his nose in Syria`s business. As his hold on power weekens it is not hard to see Syria taking advantage with the backing of the Egyptian rebels.

We are so close now that it does not matter if we agree, It will be proved shortly.

TKICBS said:

On the contrary, the little horn does not come out of the people who destroyed the temple. That was the Roman soldiers. The little horn comes from one of the euopean union.

The one who causes the scrafice to be taken away is not the one who sets it up. That makes no sense. Any more than the king of the north in Daniel 11 could. These are 3 different people and one causes it, arms rise up on the part of another and the little horn does the deed.

I understand what you are saying about the holy covenant and have herad this before, however, the covenant made in Daniel 9:27 has been made. It is the EPNI and was confirmed by Jovier Solana (the high rep for the EU) on Jan 1st, 2007. You don`t have to take my word for it. April 17th will prove it as we arive at 2300 days. Watch the relationship between Syria and Egypt over the next 2 months. Already Egypt is in trouble with their new leader. At the same time he is sticking his nose in Syria`s business. As his hold on power weekens it is not hard to see Syria taking advantage with the backing of the Egyptian rebels.

We are so close now that it does not matter if we agree, It will be proved shortly.

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Except that John wrote to his generation, new nothing of the EU, nor did his readers, and he wanted his generation to hear and obey his message! It's all there in Rev 1. Basically, Revelation is written to all Christians in all ages and is ABOUT all Christians in all ages. It's the gospel to suffering Christians. It's not a 'timetable' of end times events: if it were it would directly contradict all Jesus warnings that we WILL NOT know when he is going to return.

The horns etc are all symbols of power, and there are symbolic theological warnings and encouragements in each chapter of Revelation. It really is a very practical book. But it is NOT a crystal ball: otherwise, why have futurists been so bad at 'reading' it? (Not enough mojo in their crystal ball powers? )

eclipsenow said in post 209:

Except that John wrote to his generation, new nothing of the EU, nor did his readers, and he wanted his generation to hear and obey his message! It's all there in Rev 1.

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Regarding "he wanted his generation to hear and obey his message", the original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Rev. 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (Jn. 14:15). But almost all of Revelation doesn't consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Rev. 1:1,3, 22:7) which aren't things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Rev. 9:3-11)? Instead, "tereo"/"keep" in Rev. 1:3, 22:7 is used in the sense of holding onto something precious (Jn. 12:7, 2:10b, 17:11,12,15, Eph. 4:3) instead of casting it away as worthless. We are to "keep"/hold onto all of Revelation as being the precious truth, from Jesus himself to the church (Rev. 1:1, 22:16), just as we are to "keep"/hold onto Christian faith itself (2 Tim. 4:7b), even during the worst time for the church during the future tribulation (Rev. 13:7-10, 14:12-13, 20:4-6).

It's not a 'timetable' of end times events: if it were it would directly contradict all Jesus warnings that we WILL NOT know when he is going to return.

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Regarding "it's not a 'timetable' of end times events", the end times part of Revelation (Rev. chs. 6-22) is a timetable insofar as it's chronological, insofar as the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18 will begin with the events of seals 2-6, occurring in the order shown in Rev. 6:3-14. After the events of seal 6, Rev. 7 will occur. Then seal 7 will be unsealed and out of it will come the tribulation's 7 trumpets (Rev. 8:1-6). Then the events of trumpets 1-6 in Rev. 8:7-9:21 will occur in the order shown there. Then Rev. 10 will occur. Then the literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign will occur, which time period is shown from 4 different angles in Rev. chs. 11-14 (Rev. 11:2b-3, 12:6,14, 13:5,7, 14:9-13). Then trumpet 7 will sound, announcing the legal end of the Antichrist's reign (Rev. 11:15). Out of trumpet 7's heavenly temple opening will come the 7 plagues of the 7 vials (Rev. 11:19, 15:5-16:1), the tribulation's final stage. Then the events of the 7 vials will occur in the order shown in Rev. 16. Then Jesus will return (Rev. 19:2-7) and marry the church (Rev. 19:7). Then Jesus will defeat the unsaved world (Rev. 19:11-20:3) and will reign on the earth with the bodily resurrected church for 1,000 years (Rev. 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29). Then the events of Rev. 20:7-22:5 will occur in the order shown there.

It's not a 'timetable' of end times events: if it were it would directly contradict all Jesus warnings that we WILL NOT know when he is going to return.

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Regarding "if it were it would directly contradict all Jesus warnings that we WILL NOT know when he is going to return", Mt. 24:36,42,44 indeed refers to Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:37,42,44), which Jesus had just finished saying won't happen until immediately after the tribulation (Mt. 24:29-31). So in Mt. 24:42,44, Jesus could mean that only if believers don't watch (stay awake, spiritually) during the tribulation, the 2nd coming will happen at an hour they don't know/think not (cf. the if principle of Rev. 3:3b). In the context of Mt. 24:36,42,44, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, Jesus says "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), he doesn't say "of that day and hour no man will know". So it's possible at some point in the future some believers will come to know the date (as in the year, month, and day) of the 2nd coming before it happens. Also, if we mistakenly think Jesus can come today or tomorrow (as is sometimes claimed by the pre-trib and symbolicist views), then how can we also claim he will come when nobody thinks he will (Mt 24:44)?

Also, compare the following: "of that day and hour knoweth no man" (Mt. 24:36), "the things of God knoweth no man" (1 Cor. 2:11). If we claim the first verse means no man will ever know the date of the 2nd coming until it happens, then to be consistent we would have to also claim the 2nd verse means no man, not even believers, can know the things of God until the 2nd coming. But who would say that? For the Holy Spirit can currently reveal to believers the things of God (1 Cor. 2:12-13), he can currently guide them into all truth and show them what will happen in the future (Jn. 16:13), including the date of the 2nd coming. For, again, Jesus suggests it's possible for believers to know when the 2nd coming will occur and to watch for it (Mt. 24:43-44a, 1 Thes. 5:4). Also, what Amos 3:7 says would include the 2nd coming: Surely God the Father won't send Jesus back without having first revealed to some believers the secret of the date of the 2nd coming. It could occur on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in a 3rd Jewish temple (Dan. 12:11-12, Rev. 16:15, Dan. 11:31,36, Mt. 24:15).

eclipsenow said in post 195:

That valley is 2000 years long, and it is what the bible calls the Last Days. (As seen in Acts 2, Hebrews 1, etc)

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Regarding the latter or "last" days, they indeed began in the first century A.D. with Jesus' first coming (Heb. 1:2) and the Holy Spirit's pouring out at the Pentecost in Acts 2 (Acts 2:16-17). The last "days" are the last three roughly 1,000-year "days" (2 Pet. 3:8) of the seven roughly 1,000-year "days" from the creation of Adam in roughly 4,000 B.C. to the future end of the present earth and the creation of the new earth (Rev. 21:1) in roughly 3,000 A.D.. So the last "days" are the roughly 3,000 years from Jesus' first coming to sometime after the future millennium (Rev. 20:4-6), which will be part of the last roughly 1,000-year "day".

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eclipsenow said in post 192:

JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE *ALREADY* SHARES IN THEIR *TRIBULATION*

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

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"The" tribulation in Rev. 1:9 (Greek) is the general tribulation which the church has experienced from its beginning (Acts 14:22, Jn. 16:33). There is also the still-unfulfilled, unprecedented tribulation (Mt. 24:21-22) of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24, which the church will experience in our future, preceding Jesus' 2nd coming (Mt. 24:29-31, Rev. 19:7-20:6). Also, the various trials individual Christians undergo, including currently, can be referred to as (plural) "tribulations" (Rom. 5:3, Eph. 3:13, 2 Thes. 1:4).

It's not some weak future timetable that robs the book of relevance and meaning to us.

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Just as Jesus' 2nd coming in Rev. 19:7-20:3 has always been relevant to Christians (for all scripture is profitable: 2 Tim. 3:16) despite the fact that it has never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future, so the highly-detailed and chronological events of the preceding tribulation in Rev. chs. 6-18, and the subsequent millennium and other events in Rev. chs. 20-22, have always been relevant to Christians, despite the fact that they have never been fulfilled, but will be fulfilled almost entirely literally in our future. Also, Christians don't have to experience every literal event in scripture, whether past literal events (e.g. Gen. chs. 1-11) or future literal events (e.g. Rev. chs. 6-18) for every scripture to be profitable to Christians (2 Tim. 3:16).

In Rev 1 he has already said "I was in the Spirit on the Lord’s day" which means he is thinking of the Age of the Spirit which finds its fulfilment on the great and terrible day of the Lord.

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Rev. 1:10 means John was in the Spirit on the first day of the week (what's now commonly called Sunday). For after the Lord rose from the dead on the first day of the week (Mk. 16:9), the early church referred to the first day of the week as the Lord's day: "no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him" (The Epistle of Ignatius to the Magnesians, chapter 9. Ignatius was a contemporary of John).

Futurists see it as utterly dependent on today's headlines, and therefore inaccessible to everyone before this generation.

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Futurism considers today's headlines regarding such things as geopolitics & technology in order to help believers consider different ways for how exactly the never-fulfilled, yet still understandable, & almost entirely literal, highly-detailed prophecies in Rev. chs. 6-18 might be fulfilled in our future. For example, Christians at any time in the past could understand Rev. 6:4-8 refers to a horrible, literal war which will start the tribulation, & which, with its aftermath of famines & epidemics, will end up killing 1/4 of the world. They could understand this without having to know, for example, what nation will start the war, or what weapons will be employed in the war. All futurism does it consider these things. For another example, Christians at any time in the past could understand Rev. 13:14-15 refers to a literal image (Greek: "eikon", something made in the likeness) of the Antichrist, which will appear to be alive, which will speak, & which people will have to worship or be killed. Christians in the past could understand this without having to know, for example, whether the image will be two-dimensional or three-dimensional (or both), or what it will be made of, or how it will be made to speak & appear to be alive. All futurism does is consider these things.

Does Jesus have 7 horns and 7 eyes or not?

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Parts of Rev. 5:6 are literal (God's throne in heaven, the 4 beasts, the 24 elders, Jesus having been slain, the 7 Spirits of God, the earth) and parts of Rev. 5:6 are symbolic (Jesus being a lamb, his having 7 horns, his having 7 eyes).

Ludwig van Beethoven said in post 196:

Actually, 'The Day of the Lord' is not the same as 'The Tribulation'.

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That's right.

The day of the Lord/Christ (2 Thes. 2:2) will begin at his 2nd coming (1 Cor. 1:7-8, 2 Thes. 2:1-8, 1:7-10), which won't occur until Rev. 19:7-20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Rev. chs. 6-18/Mt. 24 (Mt. 24:29-31, 2 Thes. 2:1-8).

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Ludwig van Beethoven said in post 194:

Eclipsenow, John said that these things would 'soon' take place, you must realize that 'soon' is relative. To God, a thousand years is like a day.

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That's right.

From the viewpoint of men, part of what Rev. chs. 2-3 foretold could have begun unfolding "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) after John saw his Revelation vision, for the letters to the seven literal, first-century AD local church congregations (Rev. chs. 2-3) in seven cities in the Roman province of "Asia" (Rev. 1:11b) could have foretold a first-century AD persecution (Rev. 2:10, 3:10) under the Roman Emperor Domitian which happened shortly after John saw his vision around 95 AD, near the end of Domitian's reign (Irenaeus, Against Heresies 5:30:3c). But even all the (to us) still-future events of the tribulation and subsequent 2nd coming of Rev. chs. 6-19 will unfold "shortly" (Rev. 1:1,3) or "quickly" (Rev. 22:20) after John saw his vision. For from the viewpoint of God, even the passing of some 2,000 years is like the passing of only two days (2 Pet. 3:8). Christians should look at the future fulfillment of Rev. chs. 6-19 from the viewpoint of God, not men, for whom the passing of some 2,000 years seems like a long delay for its fulfillment (2 Pet. 3:9).

Bible2 said:

Regarding "he wanted his generation to hear and obey his message", the original Greek word ("tereo", G5083) translated as "keep" in Rev. 1:3 can be used in the sense of obeying commandments (Jn. 14:15).

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Irrelevant. Read all the verses.

1. THE LANGUAGE IS URGENT AND NEAR!

Revelation 1:1
"1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place."

SOON!

Revelation 1:3
"3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near."

NEAR!

John expected the stuff in Revelation to begin during his lifetime! The persecution, the suffering, the tribulations, the safety of martyrs in heaven, the spiritual reign of Christ, it all started 2000 years ago.

2. JOHN SPECIFICALLY SAYS HE *ALREADY* SHARES IN THEIR *TRIBULATION*

Rev 1:9 "I, John, your brother and fellow partaker in the tribulation and kingdom and perseverance which are in Jesus, was on the island called Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus." (NASB)

John shares their tribulation which had *already* started! It started 2000 years ago, and continues to this day. We see it in history and around the world *any* time a 'beast' government starts to kill God's people.

But almost all of Revelation doesn't consist of commandments, but of prophecies of future events (Rev. 1:1,3, 22:7) which aren't things to be "obeyed". For example, how would believers "obey" the prophecy regarding the weird locust-like beings (Rev. 9:3-11)?

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That's only because you haven't understood the imagery. How would you obey Jesus parable of the sower? First, you have to understand what the images are even about, and have a tiny clue about agriculture. Then, you can read on and get the benefit of Jesus explaining the parable to us. The problem for us today is that John expects his readers to be educated in apocalyptic tropes. When one isn't familiar with this genre, people make FUNDAMENTAL mistakes like reading it as a crystal ball! It's not! It's like taking the wrong code-breaker to the wrong code. You're guaranteed to get the wrong answer.

The giant locusts are not 'beings' but are biblical symbols about the torment of the enemies of God's people. They bring to mind some of the most terrifying things in the ancient world: locusts (famine and death), lions (creatures of power), a cavalry, hard armour, etc.

But more than that, it reminds Jews of of Joel

1:4,6,

What the locust swarm has left
the great locusts have eaten;
what the great locusts have left
the young locusts have eaten;
what the young locusts have left
other locusts[a] have eaten. ...
6 A nation has invaded my land,
a mighty army without number;
it has the teeth of a lion,
the fangs of a lioness.


2:31,
The sun will be turned to darkness
and the moon to blood
before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.


2:4.They have the appearance of horses;
they gallop along like cavalry.

In mixing the Joel prophecies together and then labelling them as servants of Abaddon, we can see these as images of judgement. God is in control, and hurls judgement on the earth even as he releases Satanic forces. These are strictly descriptive, OT images, but they describe the Satanic forces *behind* the ills of the world. The fifth seal revealed the souls of God's servants (6:9), and this section shows the Satanic persecution of the enemies of God who are in a far worse state than those Christians who are already dead! (Compare and contrast is a tool John uses frequently, keep it in mind).


It's about understanding the big picture of biblical prophecy and how John frequently mixes up OT images. EG: The beast is an amalgamation of Daniel's 4 beasts, and so instead of representing a specific, individual kingdom, John is saying that *any* kingdom that points itself against God's people is a beast. We're not meant to be beastly: the first sin occurred in the context of reversing the natural order of God ruling man who rules the beasts. We listened to a beast (the snake) and rebelled against our natural ruler, God. We are meant to aspire to more. This passage reminds us that:-


In other words, John is saying that:-
* Yes, this is the Last Days spoken of in Joel
* Yes, horrible things will happen to God's people
* But God is in control even of the Satanic forces behind figures like Hitler or Stalin or Mao or Pol Pot or anyone who hurts God's people
* That even if you are killed, you'll be better off following God than being abandoned by Him and left at the 'mercy' of the same Satanic forces you were tempted to trust more than God.
* Don't be beastly: be human, be more, or you will become like your worst enemies, the invisible powers behind all the evil we see in this world.

It's a sermon, not a timetable. John said the time was soon and near and they were to hear his message and take it to heart. Frankly, if I was a first century Christian watching my family be torn apart by lions, I could care less about some future space-alien locusts and an android antichrist! MY FAMILY ARE DYING! WHAT DOES THIS BOOK HAVE TO SAY TO ME?

By ripping it out of John's purposes clearly explained in Rev 1, you've made it irrelevant to all Christians across all time, except that 'lucky' last generation of Christians who finally get to say, "At LAST! This book is about US!" (And how smug they will be having an extra book that finally talks about THEM! How special they will feel! )

Thank you Eclipse for coming back to the real world and sanity. The real 1st cent. world.

--Inter

re- eclipsenow;
You told bible2:
The giant locusts are not 'beings' but are biblical symbols about the torment of the enemies of God's people. They bring to mind some of the most terrifying things in the ancient world: locusts (famine and death), lions (creatures of power), a cavalry, hard armour, etc.

With this type of interpritation one could make up any story thay want. Joel describes the locust as God's army sent to do his will. They are called locust simply because they will swarm over the land just as locust do.

Why would you make them a symbol of anything when they can be understood just as it is written. They problem is that most do not believe or have not heard of a hollow earth. With a hollow earth Rev 8 and 9 can be read just as if telling a story in plain english.

A star falls to the earth and it looks like a mountain of fiore with the long tail. It is so big that it burns up 1/3 of the trees and all of the green grass. It lands in the sea (this is to cushion the blow while still getting the desired results) It destroys 1/3 of the ships (of course it would cause a tidal wave like never before experienced in all directions) It destroys 1/3 of the sea creatures (polutes the water and raises the temperature) it strikes 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars so that (the effect is) 1/3 of the day, night and light are smitten. (The earth is spinning 1/3 faster.
Chapter 9 tells us the star has the key to open the bottomless pit. The key is: spin the earth faster by hiting it with the star and the water will be drawn away from the North Pole revealing a tunnel leading inside where Abaddon and the locust live. They are probably sitting having tea right now, unaware of what is comming just as most people out here are.
If the earth is hollow and there is a star at the core shining down on the land below then when the earth is moved out here, that star will lose its balance and come crashing down to the surface inside. The resulting fire would cause the interior world to turn into a great furnace. When the pit is open the smoke from that fire will acsend out here and be so thick it will block out the sun and the change in the atmosphere will cause the moon to appear to turn red. I have seen this effect on streetlights during a forest fire. The green lights appear to be blue.
Out of the smoke will come the creatures that now live at peace inside. Their world will be destroyed and they will be forced out like bees from a honey comb.
Their king once lived out here. His name is destroyer. He was out here, he is not out here, but he is (inside) and will ascend out of the pit and go into perdition.

Again, why make this a symbol when it can be read in english with the right key in the lock. This key is the hollow earth. But most cannot accept this key.

You are right bible2. When John heard the prophecy God said it will only be a couple days so get ready.

In some cases Revelation is like a group of witnesses who all testify to what they saw during a given event. One saw this and one saw that but they all saw the same event.
In Revelation 12 one saw a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns and 7 cowns on the heads. This was the great dragon and a woman going into wilderness for 3 1/2 years
In Revelation 13 another saw a beast with 7 heads, 10 horns and 10 cowns on the horns. This was the beast with 10 kings.
But these were both happening at the same time. The horns and the heads are 2 entities working together for the same 3 1/2 years.
During the same 3 1/2 years the 2 witnesses are in Jerusalem proclaiming the truth about God and judgement.
Ezekiel 7-14 are all addressing this same age. There is amazing revelation here. In chapter 8 the wailing wall is describled with all of the prayers that are sent up to different gods. Oboma has been here praying. He is Muslim, so his prayer for sure was to Allah. Bush was there, his prayer would be to Satan or to a very perverted kind of Christianity. He is a free mason of high degree. Then there is the alter at the north gate of the court. This is the dome on the rock and is worshiped by Muslims. It is described as jeolousy because they were jeolous of Issac and claim it was Ishmale Abraham offered.
Thes chapters perrralel the great tribulation and the time when Israel will be forcibly removed from Judea in order to bring peace. Notice that God sends the man in linen to mark those who are righteous and these he provides a way of escape. This all takes place before the asteroid hits. They line up perfectly with Revelation 7, prior to the 7 trumpets. The trumpets describe the asteroid and Mathew 24:15 to 29 clearly says the tribulation is over before the asteroid hits and the rapture of the bride is after the asteroid hits. but before Abaddon sits in the temple.

TKICBS said:

re- eclipsenow;
You told bible2:
The giant locusts are not 'beings' but are biblical symbols about the torment of the enemies of God's people. They bring to mind some of the most terrifying things in the ancient world: locusts (famine and death), lions (creatures of power), a cavalry, hard armour, etc.

With this type of interpritation one could make up any story thay want. Joel describes the locust as God's army sent to do his will. They are called locust simply because they will swarm over the land just as locust do.
Why would you make them a symbol of anything when they can be understood just as it is written.

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Because it's symbolic: that's what apocalyptic literature is. This was applied to John's generation, and if you're going to read this as history then you're going to have trouble finding them.

They problem is that most do not believe or have not heard of a hollow earth. With a hollow earth Rev 8 and 9 can be read just as if telling a story in plain english.

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Eeerrr?You can completely undermine what we know of science and read it literally as it wasn't intended to be read, or you can read the spiritual reality here about what else comes from the 'underworld'.

A star falls to the earth and it looks like a mountain of fiore with the long tail. It is so big that it burns up 1/3 of the trees and all of the green grass. It lands in the sea (this is to cushion the blow while still getting the desired results) It destroys 1/3 of the ships (of course it would cause a tidal wave like never before experienced in all directions) It destroys 1/3 of the sea creatures (polutes the water and raises the temperature) it strikes 1/3 of the sun, moon and stars so that (the effect is) 1/3 of the day, night and light are smitten. (The earth is spinning 1/3 faster.

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Do you know anything about Jewish number symbolism? It's not literally one third here. The focus is that many were judged, but in God's mercy, many more were spared. That's it: no more, no less. It's not numerical but theological.

Chapter 9 tells us the star has the key to open the bottomless pit.

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One subject at a time please: I'm just in a conversation with Bible2 about how to even read Revelation and don't have time to debate every single chapter with every single person. I hope you understand.

My advice? Do some basic geology, and forget about the hollow earth for now. That's... a little... :o

You are not really understanding what I am saying. The fact is the earth is hollow and the verses above help to prove this. I scientists have benn wrong in the past and will be wrong again on this issue. I understand that you are trying to teach someone what you believe. I am trying to show you that you are wrong. All of the seminars, bible theology and Jewish number systems have nothing to do with it. Where did Jesus say we should study what the religious teachers are teaching before we can understand what the spirit is revealing?
No he said they make their deciples twice the child of hell they are.
Please read page 11 in the website posted in my signature and see if the earth could be hollow.
If when I read Rev 8 and 9 with the understanding that the earth is hollow and found that it makes no sense literally, then I would say you might be correct. However, it reads like a full description with a hollow earth. Why can't you see this?

TKICBS said:

You are not really understanding what I am saying. The fact is the earth is hollow and the verses above help to prove this.

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The fact is it isn't hollow, as can be measured in various means, and it's a good thing it isn't as all that extra mass helps create a bend in space-time that keeps us stuck to this planet! (It's this little detail called 'gravity' that makes life on this planet possible because of its mass because it is not hollow!)

I scientists have benn wrong in the past and will be wrong again on this issue.

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I know, and the moon is made of cheese and Elvis is alive as an android and Men in Black 1,2, and 3 are REAL!

All of the seminars, bible theology and Jewish number systems have nothing to do with it.

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They have everything to do with it because starting with how the original audience would have received it is the first step in hermeneutics: how we understand the bible for today depends on how they first understood it then. The original audience had a completely different idea in mind if you mentioned something coming up from the 'underworld'. That's another name for Hades, the land of the dead, not the inside of this planet! To insert a 'hollow world' into the text here is to insert a weirdo UFO conspiracy theory from 2000 years later into the original text. It's completely unfounded and out of line.

Where did Jesus say we should study what the religious teachers are teaching before we can understand what the spirit is revealing?

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Which spirit is this... Bourbon?
Hollow world =

If when I read Rev 8 and 9 with the understanding that the earth is hollow and found that it makes no sense literally, then I would say you might be correct. However, it reads like a full description with a hollow earth. Why can't you see this?

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1. Because it ignores the first century concept of the underworld and Hades, and fails the first test of biblical concerns.
1. Because it's insane, the earth isn't hollow and to dictate that the apocalyptic symbolism of Revelation is actually teaching us a whacky new geology is.... just... unbalanced?