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k4c

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Byfaithalone1 said:
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Why do you sigh?

You guys say it's righteousness by faith and I agree. Then you say we have to live by faith and I agree. Then when I ask if living by faith includes living by principles taught in the Ten Commandments I can't get a straight answer.
 
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Byfaithalone1

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k4c said:
Why do you sigh?
Click to expand...
I had a glimpse of what I thought might actually be agreement. Then I woke up.

You guys say it's righteousness by faith and I agree. Then you say we have to live by faith and I agree. Then when I ask if living by faith includes living by principles taught in the Ten Commandments I can't get a straight answer.
Click to expand...
I have been responsive with "straight answers" on the subject of "principles." Click here for one example.

BFA
 
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Byfaithalone1

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EastCoastRemnant said:
To what Crib said, how do you know if something is sin? Is it a feeling?
Click to expand...

Hi ECR. Is this a question for me or for K4C?
If for me, my answer is "No it's much more than a feeling; the Spirit convicts with respect to sin and righteousness and judgment."

If for K4C, please forgive the intrusion.
​
BFA
 
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k4c

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Byfaithalone1 said:
I had a glimpse of what I thought might actually be agreement. Then I woke up.

I have been responsive with "straight answers" on the subject of "principles." Click here for one example.

BFA
Click to expand...

When talking about salvation I hate to use the word obey because it gives the impression of a works based salvation. I like the word love better.

When we love God and neighbor it will be expressed by how we live. The more we grow to know God, the more we will become like Him because we were created in His image and are being conformed to Jesus. In this, the old man dies day by day.

As we read the New Testament and grow in grace and truth we will begin to see the principles of all ten commandments stated and confirmed in the New Testament (covenant). If we truly love, as God calls us to love, these principles will begin to manifest in our lives through how we live because of love for God and neighbor. This will happen without any concern of what we're doing as being related to a salvation or a justification issue.

People who try to do away with the principles found in the Ten Commandments, which are also confirmed in the New Testament (covenant), make it a salvation and justification issue but we who love God don't see it that way.

We see the principles found in the Ten Commandments and confirmed in the New Testament as a God given means to express godly love towards Him and neighbor. My neighbor is happy when I don't steal from him but he is also happy when I help him rake his leaves. God is happy when we remember His Sabbath but He is also happy when we care for the needs of others that arise on His Sabbath. So for those who love God and neighbor, if it pleases them we enjoy doing it because we love them both.

Colossians 1:9-10 And so, from the day we heard of it, we have not ceased to pray for you, asking that you may be filled with the knowledge of his will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, to lead a life worthy of the Lord, fully pleasing to him, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God.

Hebrews 13:20-21 Now may the God of peace who brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, the great shepherd of the sheep, by the blood of the eternal covenant, equip you in every good thing to do His will, working in us that which is pleasing in His sight, through Jesus Christ, to whom be the glory forever and ever. Amen.
 
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Joe67

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k4c,

Rom 7:21-23
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. KJV

This is the experience of all men, at all times. Not all are aware of what is going on inside their body and mind.

The idolater mentally delights in the law written on the stones, but does not see the law of sin in his members and thus claims an obedience to the law that falls far short of God's righteousness.

The sorcerer sees the law of sin in his members, but does not delight in the law of God after the inward man; so he excuses bodily misbehavior as something unavoidable, thus not believing that the corruption of lust can be washed away in the water of the Word, after having been forgiven through the blood of Jesus.

1 Cor 11:31-32
31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged.

32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. KJV

Joe
 
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Cribstyl

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k4c said:
Why do you sigh?

You guys say it's righteousness by faith and I agree. Then you say we have to live by faith and I agree. Then when I ask if living by faith includes living by principles taught in the Ten Commandments I can't get a straight answer.
Click to expand...
First of all you did not ask that exact question.
We'd rather post scripture that best articulates your question about the doctrine of faith, then explains our understanding of the scriptures.

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, [it is] evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
Gal 3:13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

We understand according to scripture that God has revealed through Paul that His standard for righteousness is no longer righteousness by the law but righteousness by faith. Jesus redeemed us on the cross, not before.
His blood signed the new covenant.

Living by the standards of the law is not living by faith (that's what these scriptures reveal.) The man who chose to lives by the law will be judged by the law. Good luck at judgment because you're actually rejecting the only way, through faith in Jesus.

Your question now is, if living by faith includes living by the "principles" taught in the ten commandments.

I say no. To me "faith" is comming to know a Holy God not comming to know a Holy law.
The more you you draw close to Him through faith, the more He draws close to you.
 
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Cribstyl

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EastCoastRemnant said:
To what Crib said, how do you know if something is sin? Is it a feeling?
Click to expand...
Sin is an ungodly action that people do or think. Sin "comes" from a thought to a feeling, and when it comes out of a man, it's becomes a sin.

The nature of Sin begin as a thought, then a feeling.
"To lust" is a feeling and that is a sin.

Gen 4:7If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee [shall be] his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.





Jam 1:12Blessed [is] the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.


Jam 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
Jam 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jam 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
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EastCoastRemnant

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My question is to try and understand how I would know that lust is a sin? After all, God made woman beautiful and pleasing to the eyes... shouldn't we enjoy what God has made?

Isn't it justified to take some food from someone that has more than enough, to feed my kids?... God wouldn't want them to go hungry, right?

There are lots of grey areas that we can be tempted by... if we don't obey the spirit and the letter of the law, we will find ourselves sliding further and further into justified sin. There must be a standard....

Take Sabbath for example. If I don't obey the Commandment as it is written and tell myself that I can worship on any day, I may start to lesson my worship with God as Satan will make my life so full of stuff to do that I'll let my worship slide this week and then maybe something else comes up that is 'important' and after a while, the world has us consumed because there was no standard that we held to. Now the letter of the Law might be what brings you to obeting the Law but the closer we grow in our relationship with God, we realize it is about so much more than blind obedience. We see the deeper meanings to the Laws and start to obey them from our love of God instead of our fear of punishment. Think about your own relationship with your parents growing up. There was a time when you obeyed what they said because you knoew the concequences but after you grew older and could see that they loved you and were looking out for you, you obeyed because of love and not of fear.

This may seem like commentary to you but I'm trying to convey, in the easiest way possible how I feel and how I approach God and His Commandments.
 
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Torah

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To sin is to miss the mark, or goal.
Torah / Law is the mark or gold to aim for.
Does this mean were saved by the Torah?

Paul's New Perspective on Gentiles
Paul's rereading of the Torah after his Damascus Road experience brought new light to the issue of the proselyte. If Abraham were the first proselyte, he stood forever as the model for the rest. What caught Paul's attention was the fact that Abraham had been blessed as a covenant member before he was circumcised. [Romans 4:9-12]
Since in Paul's day "circumcision" was a short-hand way of saying "Jewish," Paul now realized that Abraham had become a covenant member as a non-Jew—he had attained the status of covenant member by faith, not by the ritual of the proselyte. If this were true for Abraham, it was also true for all Gentiles who exercised faith in the Messiah Yeshua. Even Yeshua Himself spoke of Abraham as having seen Him:

John 8: 56"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."
Since this saying of Yeshua's caused such consternation among His enemies, it may well be that Paul knew of it. Once he began to reread the Torah after his Damascus Road experience, Paul understood Abraham's faith to have been directed toward Yeshua. In this way Abraham was a model for the "uncircumcised" as well as the "circumcised."[Romans 4:11-12] Abraham's story proved that God's election, confirmed by the individual's faith, was the path to covenant status for the Gentile. This fact would be foundational for Paul as he labored to preach the gospel among the Gentiles.

Paul had come to realize that attributing a status of "righteous" on the basis of a proselyte ceremony constituted an attempt to gain righteousness by one's own efforts. But such a teaching overlooked an essential element that the Torah emphasized in the scope of Abraham's covenant status, namely, that his covenant status preceded his circumcision. His "righteous" status was on the basis of faith, not on becoming a proselyte. For if Abraham, God's chosen, had "believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness," then the initial message of the Gospel to the elect must be one of faith, not ritual.

But this message of the Gospel which centered upon the exercise of faith in Messiah in no way diminished nor negated the Torah. To Paul's antagonists, the position that a Gentile could become a covenant member without being circumcised sounded as though the Torah had been ignored. In reality Paul was restoring the Torah's message of salvation by faith. He understood that a Gentile who thought he could actually gain right standing with God through becoming a proselyte was trusting in something that could never actually save him. He may feel content in his new social status as a "Jew," but before the bar of God's justice he was still counted as unrighteous.



Paul realized, then, that he would need to take a very hard-line approach toward Gentiles who were being persuaded that becoming a proselyte gained them salvation. In their ill-founded confidence, such Gentiles were doomed. Thus, denying a Gentile the ritual of a proselyte (circumcision) must be read in this context, and not as a negation of Torah. Paul needed to teach the Gentiles that the first step in their conversion was one of genuine faith in Messiah. Only after they understood that their righteousness was reckoned to them and not earned were they in a position to appreciate both the value and necessity of
Torah-obedience.

Once again, Abraham becomes the example, for his faith was evidenced by his obedience. God's sovereign choosing had brought Abraham to the covenant, and his faith in God had sealed his membership in it. But as a chosen covenant member, Abraham obeyed God and circumcised both himself and all the males of his household. [Genesis 17:23-27] For Paul the order of events was crucial: faith comes first (gaining the status of covenant member), then obedience to God's commandments (living as a covenant member).
This order was no doubt emphasized in Paul's mind by the arrangement of the covenants as well. [Galatians 3:17] The Abrahamic covenant precedes the Mosaic covenant. But what is the significance of this order? For Paul it was that justification, i.e., right standing before God (emphasized in the Abrahamic covenant and the faith it requires) comes before sanctification, i.e., being set apart unto God in one's actions (the emphasis of the Mosaic covenant with its required obedience). Redemption (the exodus from Egypt) comes first and then Torah (standing at Sinai).
To suggest that the ritual of circumcision is the gateway to right standing with God is to teach that Sinai (submission to Torah) precedes the exodus, or that the Mosaic covenant comes before God's promise to Abraham. It reverses the biblical order and is contrary to Torah. This was crucial for Paul.

The gospel he preached was the same gospel given to Abraham, [Galatians 3:8] a gospel which first centers upon the blessings in Messiah (appropriated through faith) and then effects radical changes in one's life (accomplished through obedience).



Often when Paul speaks of "circumcision" he is not referring to the physical act of cutting per se, but of the entire ritual by which a non-Jew became a Jew according to Rabbinic standards. As such, what he prohibits in a text like
I Corinthians 7:18-19 is the idea that one needs to change his social status to enter the covenant.
Was any man called already circumcised? Let him not become uncircumcised. Has anyone been called in uncircumcision? Let him not be circumcised. Circumcision is nothing, and uncircumcision is nothing, but what matters is the keeping of the commandments of God.

Paul did not want Gentiles to think they needed to become Jews nor that they even could become Jews. Neither did he want Jews to think that they needed to cease being Jews nor that they could. Paul expects both Jew and Gentile to keep the commandments. It seems very possible, then, that Paul would have had no problem with a Gentile remaining a Gentile. What he would never allow was a Gentile undergoing the Rabbinic ritual of a proselyte with the notion that such a ceremony would gain him the status of "righteous." This was surely "another gospel" and to Paul anathema.


Summary
Paul, based upon his understanding of the Tanach, [Old Testament] taught the sinfulness of mankind regardless of ethnic status. Since there was none who did good and all had sinned, all were unrighteous and therefore all in need of redemption. Such redemption could only be given for one could never affect one's own redemption and ethnic status did not guarantee it.
It was rather through God's own selection that people were brought near to Him and redeemed through His divine means. Seeing an election on both a corporate as well as an individual level, Paul realized that eternal salvation was granted to the individual, not the group.

While national election secured blessings for this world, only individual election that secured individual faith in the Messiah through the working of God's grace could gain a place in the world-to-come.
The gospel, then, for Paul was that God was continuing in faithfulness to the promise He had made to the Fathers, a promise that included the ingathering of the Gentiles—a promise which was in all ways centered upon Yeshua. Through the proclamation of Yeshua as Messiah, the elect would be gathered, Israel would be provoked to jealousy, and God's eternal plan to save His. people would be realized.
 
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Torah

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Read on to 16:17 It is easier for heaven and earth to disappear than for the least stroke of a pen to drop out of the Law.

The heavens and earth are still here! Up until John the immerser there were the Torah and the Prophets and now there is Isaiah the prophet, make straight the way for the Lord. John 1:23
 
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Cribstyl

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You're correct......
In context with Luke16:16, the law in question is the books of the law;
Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers and Deuteronomy.

So,Jesus is saying in Luke16:17 Not one dot will change from God's word which was written by Moses.

This does not change the fact that Jesus is saying in Luke 16:16; The Law and the Prophet was the rules of beliefs until John prepared the way for Jesus to preach the Kingdom of God.... THE GOSPEL.

The fact that Moses said that "God would raise up a prophet like he raised me up and people would listen to Him, is written in the law and must be fufilled."
Change of covenants is written in the law and the prophets.
 
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k4c

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Byfaithalone1 said:
We see the principles found in the Ten Commandments and confirmed in the New Testament as a God given means to express godly love towards Him and neighbor.

K4C . . . You and I agree on this.

BFA
Click to expand...

You don't think remembering to keep the Sabbath holy is a means to express faith and love towards God?

God tells us that when we remember to keep the Sabbath holy we tell the people around us that we believe in creation and the God who created it, this is well pleasing to God.

When we keep the Sabbath holy we are obeying God, which in turn means He is the one sanctifying us, this is well pleasing to Him.

When we keep the Sabbath holy we give our allegiance to God, this is well pleasing to Him.

We honor Jesus as Lord of the Sabbath when we remember to keep the day holy as He taught us, this is well pleasing to God.

All these opportunities are a means to express faith and love towards God.

The New Testament is loaded with verses that confirm the seventh day Sabbath.

What you need to do is submit yourself to God and allow Him to open your eyes to the Sabbath truth because as it seems right now you do not have the capacity to receieve from us here at this time. But you know what? Several years ago I use to be the same way you and Crib are now.
 
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Torah

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Joe67

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Phil 3:13-16
13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

16 Nevertheless, whereto we have already attained, let us walk by the same rule, let us mind the same thing. KJV

Verse 16 is counseling us to practice what we say. As we do this we will see room for our brother whose understanding is different, but whose devotion has a clean heart and a right spirit.

The differences can be such as those between Jacob/Israel and Esau. Even though they were reconciled they did not live in the same geography. When Isaac died they both buried their father. The same occurred with Isaac and Ishmael. They finished in peace.

Joe
 
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