The Source of the Trinity

Landon Caeli · Sep 12, 2016

I'll wait until I know for sure before I make any assumptions... Patience is a virtue.

But if others feel strongly one way or the other, I don't believe it would harm their faith much. What's the worst that could happen afterall?

JM · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
AMy question is, what is the sentiment today about this? Particularly among Christians who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. Is the Father alone generally seen as the source of the entire Trinity?

God alone is the Trinity. The Spirit is sent from God. Christ is God. Christ is shown in scripture as sending the Spirit.

Yours in the Lord,

jm

Landon Caeli · Sep 12, 2016

jargew said:
Hi Constantine the Sinner (I like Constantine as well, see the hand....),

Question; What is the significance with the hand, is that a representation of something?

Albion · Sep 12, 2016

jargew said:
BUT there are two seemingly incongruent texts:
Evidence for Eternal Jesus:
John 1:1 "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Evidence for a created Christ:
Colossians 1:15 " The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."

So, what's the answer? I dunno. Praise God for his mysteries, let's not be divided by them.

It looks to me like the only "problem" here is caused by the fact that the Second Person of the Trinity was eternal, but upon his Incarnation also became a human and is described as such.

younglite · Sep 12, 2016

Graham Dull said:
ATHANASIAN CREED
"The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated."

Paul Yohannan said:
Jesus Christ is the uncreated Word of God in His Divinity...

It's important to understand Athanasius and the entire Nicean council didn't meet to discuss whether the Logos was created or not. They met to discuss what the Logos was made of. Until the time of Arius, they had no problem saying the Logos was created, born, generated, birthed, begotten, etc. All early church fathers understood the context of the Word's creation - namely He was literally begotten of God the Father before time. As kind begets its own kind, God begets God. Prior to being begotten, the Logos (and Wisdom, the Holy Spirit) were within the Father as His Reason and Wisdom. So they always existed within the Father, and then were birthed in eternity past as His only begotten Son. So they always existed, but there was a specific "time" in eternity that they were begotten - they were "brought forth."

But Arius was now claiming the Logos was not begotten from the Father's bosom, but was created out of nothing, and that there was a time where He did not exist. He was hardly taken seriously until his teaching began to spread. Once a threat, this teaching created massive division within the church. Constantine then calls the council together in an effort to unite the church. They agree that the Son was not made from nothing, but made from the very essence of the Father, which makes the Son eternally existent. Again, no argument as to whether the Son was born of the Father ever took place. The creed - crafted from earlier church father's teachings - dealt with the Son's substance, not His creation other than to say He was created from "Very God."

From here, Athanasius began to be very careful with the word created, and since that time, a new theology of "eternally begotten" began - especially promoted by Augustine, and later Western theology in general. It's a small shift, but a shift nonetheless - one that very nearly promotes three gods.

So your answer on where the Holy Spirit comes from depends on how far you want to go back. I choose to listen to the earliest of church fathers as they interpret the Scriptures. Irenaeus, Tertullian, Justin, Theophilus, Tatian, Hippolytus are all clear and agree with each other. The Word and Wisdom (Son and Spirit) were existent within the Father, and begotten as One. Both derive their existence from the Father, though you can correctly argue that, like Eve came from Adam, the Spirit was brought forth from the begotten Son, though at no point was the Father, Son or Spirit ever separated in essence.

younglite · Sep 12, 2016

Landon Caeli said:
Question; What is the significance with the hand, is that a representation of something?

See his profile picture.

St_Worm2 · Sep 12, 2016

fat wee robin said:
God in Jesus came later to give us a chance to Recreate ourselves ,to be renewed even when we had sinned grievously ,a chance to begin again . The Holy Spirit was to take us to the next state or stage of 'evolution' ,by inspiring us ,guiding us and protecting us as He unfolded the marvels of God's created world ,and opened the door to our return to Paradise and completeness as God originally made us.

Hi FWR, I not following some of this. For instance, what is the "chance" we are given to "recreate ourselves" (and what does it mean to "recreate ourselves", exactly)? How does this "recreation" happen?

Also, did the Jews of the OT have no opportunity to be "renewed"* after they sinned? Did they have no chance to begin again? If not, why did they bother with the animal sacrifices?

*(BTW, is being "renewed" and being "forgiven" synonymous in this case)

Finally, I'm not sure I understand what you are saying about Christian "evolution" How does the HS help someone reach the "next state or stage of evolution", and what is different about a person when they reach that "state"?

Thanks for your help!

--David

BiblicalAstronomy · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
The simple distinction between the positions is that one, the Catholic, sees God's essence as foundation of the Trinity, whereas the Orthodox see the Father's existence as the basis of the Trinity. In the Catholic conception, the three persons are distinguished in the Trinity purely by relationships--that is all they are, three relationships. In the Orthodox conception, each person of the Trinity is concrete and distinct existence of God, not just God's three relationships with himself.

One of the the Problems with the trinity doctrine is that there is no Bible verse that affirms the Catholic and Orthodox belief that these 3 relationships are ONE exclusively. The ONLY Bible verse [included in the KJV-1 John 5:6-8] that refers to this oneness is omitted in Bibles like the NIV and ASV because there are no Greek words in the Inter-linears [See Berry's for example] to support its inclusion. There simply exists no other Scriptural support for the exclusive Oneness of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit!! Of course there are verses as in John 17 speaking of the oneness between the Father and the Son because the believers are included in this oneness, thus it is not exclusive to just the Father and the Son. And of course there is John 10:30 which says the Father and Son are One, but this oneness speaks of a "unity of purpose," which is the definition of the Greek word for "one" here. Naturally the Son came to us to be about his Father's Business and to fulfill His purposes, but the Son had his own mind and will which had to conform to the Father's Will as seen in Jesus' prayer in the Garden of Gethsemene, where he asked the Father if this cup could pass from him.
This scriptural evidence of course has not mattered since the Councils of Nicea, when the Trinity Doctrine was initially forced on the Christian World at the point of a sword by Constantine, and the Roman Catholic Tradition [Matt. 15:2-3] has been enough to enforce it since then. I agree that the trinity has no significance when it comes to New Birth salvation, except to heap layers of confusion on believers regarding the in-dwelling and operation of the holy spirit in their lives. This is just the tip of the iceberg...

DingDing · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
... This directly conflicted with Eastern theology, which says that the Father is sole source of the Trinity, the will is furnished by the Father alone, and the existences of the Son and the Holy Spirit are furnished by the Father alone. ...

My question is, what is the sentiment today about this? ... Is the Father alone generally seen as the source of the entire Trinity?

If one understands the doctrine of the trinity (as if such a thing can actually be understood by man), then the three, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, are fully equal. There is no one above another thing. They are fully equal, fully eternal, and fully God. Our problem is that we have no real basis to understand this kind of thing. We have to accept this by faith. This is what God has revealed of Himself, and we eventually have no option other than to accept or reject what God has revealed about His nature. Either we believe this fact about God or we don't.

paul becke · Sep 12, 2016

Since God has to be the ultimate mystery, it seems little wonder that attempts to define the relationships between the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, even in the sketchiest, most elementary fashion, is a tall order, indeed.

Poor Thomas and Philip, expected by Jesus, who could never quite understand how superior his own understanding of everything was to that of his disciples, were wearily chided by Jesus for not understanding that he and the Father were one !

I think it took about 300 years before the Fathers felt game to try to define the Holy Trinity, in the event, at the first Councli of the Church, I believe.

Paradoxes/mysteries repugnant to reason are proliferating ever more abundantly in the sphere of physics. Quantum mechanics was a game-changer, that was slowly developed in the first half of the last century. Rife with paradoxes it turned the old certainties of classical physics on their head, even introducing 'non-locality', outside of space and time. Yet it is proving to be the most successful theory ever, and industry relies on it massively.

I believe astrophysics is also proving more and more mysterious, even in terms of what they thought they had understood.

Constantine the Sinner · Sep 12, 2016

paul becke said:
Since God has to be the ultimate mystery, it seems little wonder that attempts to define the relationships between the Persons of the Most Holy Trinity, even in the sketchiest, most elementary fashion, is a tall order, indeed.

Poor Thomas and Philip, expected by Jesus, who could never quite understand how superior his own understanding of everything was to that of his disciples, were wearily chided by Jesus for not understanding that he and the Father were one !

I think it took about 300 years before the Fathers felt game to try to define the Holy Trinity, in the event, at the first Councli of the Church, I believe.

Paradoxes/mysteries repugnant to reason are proliferating ever more abundantly in the sphere of physics. Quantum mechanics was a game-changer, that was slowly developed in the first half of the last century. Rife with paradoxes it turned the old certainties of classical physics on their head, even introducing 'non-locality', outside of space and time. Yet it is proving to be the most successful theory ever, and industry relies on it massively.

I believe astrophysics is also proving more and more mysterious, even in terms of what they thought they had understood.

The Church Fathers started writing so much on the Trinity because they were responding to heresies.

paul becke · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
The Church Fathers started writing so much on the Trinity because they were responding to heresies.

The heresies must certainly have concentrated their minds, but whether they helped them to understand the Trinity ah hae ma doots.

paul becke · Sep 12, 2016

paul becke said:
The heresies must certainly have concentrated their minds, but whether they helped them to understand the Trinity ah hae ma doots.

Remember the anecdote about Augustine walking along the beach,when he saw the little boy trying to empty the ocean into the hole he was digging ?

rockytopva · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
My question is, what is the sentiment today about this? Particularly among Christians who are neither Catholic nor Orthodox. Is the Father alone generally seen as the source of the entire Trinity?

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:16

If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

And there are three varieties...

Natural E/c2 - All mass is basically cooled plasma
Mental E/c2 - Mentally, A mathematical formula, but this has chemical and spiritual properties as well.
Spiritual E/c2 - E (motivation, warmth, love) / c2 (faith, hope, charity, joy)

This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. - 1 John 1:5

All of the mass, whether it is in the form of plasma, or whether is is cooled plasma, which is mass, is of the Heavenly Father, and it belongs to him. All things proceed from the Father. Including the Christ and the Holy Spirit. Christ and the Holy Spirit have great power as it was endued upon them from on high.

younglite · Sep 12, 2016

Constantine the Sinner said:
The Church Fathers started writing so much on the Trinity because they were responding to heresies.

paul becke said:
The heresies must certainly have concentrated their minds, but whether they helped them to understand the Trinity ah hae ma doots.

It is because of these heresies that we have their understanding of what the Apostles taught. Paul B., they didn't need to understand the Trinity - it was already handed down to them in the form of the Apostles' teaching. What is being taught today is not the same teaching. See post #65 above.

ViaCrucis · Sep 12, 2016

I am sympathetic to the Eastern approach because I think that the monarchy of the Father is the better starting point for Triadological conversation.

That said I don't hold contempt for the Filioque.

In my opinion the best course of action is to move beyond the historic polemics and seek if we can't find a common way of speaking of the Spirit's eternal procession. While the inclusion of the Filioque into the Creed, I agree, was an illegal act; the basic idea contained therein has been an intrinsic part of the West's way of speaking about and confessing the Trinity historically--simply dismissing it seems unacceptable to me.

Therefore the right course of action is not in trying to dominate, but in meeting together. This seems to have been possible with our Non-Chalcedonian brethren, and frankly it seems to me that the Christological issues of the 5th century were far more significant; so that if we can build a bridge between Chalcedoneanism and Miaphysitism by understanding that the chief problem areas are semantic rather than substantial certainly we can work toward the same in regard to the Filioque question. But that is going to require a willingness of both parties to hear the other out, and find out if the central issue is indeed substantial or, in fact, mostly just semantic.

My argument: The West does not deny the monarchy of the Father, and the Filioque is not about denying the Father's monarchy in the Trinity; conversely the East does not teach (as has been said at times erroneously) that there are two begottens. Both of these are errant understandings of the others' position.

If we can agree, in fact, upon the Father's monarchy; then the central issue must boil down to what can it mean to speak of the Spirit's eternal procession coming also by the Son? One argument put forward is that the Father is the Origin, and that the Spirit's procession is through the Son.

But we must tread carefully, avoiding the many errors that are possible; subordinationism is an easy pitfall here, for example.

-CryptoLutheran

Constantine the Sinner · Sep 12, 2016

paul becke said:
The heresies must certainly have concentrated their minds, but whether they helped them to understand the Trinity ah hae ma doots.

The Cappadocian Fathers didn't understand the Trinity better than the Apostles did, they just used a newer terminology, and that new terminology only came about to prevent people from distorting what the Trinity meant. It was about ensuring the understanding didn't change, not about "improving" (changing) it.

rockytopva · Sep 12, 2016

We humans came into reality a short time ago.... God the Father has never experienced being created... If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

Mass cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes forms throughout the eternities. And these are the properties of God the Father, he cannot be created or destroyed. I have often thought on the following verse...

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: - genesis 3:2

Man is become as one of us... To know good and evil... My gosh! What a statement! And I wonder what transpired in eternities past for the Father God to make such a statement. The trinity is tough to explain even for the best of us!

Constantine the Sinner · Sep 12, 2016

rockytopva said:
We humans came into reality a short time ago.... God the Father has never experienced being created... If E = mc2 then we can divide and conclude that...

Mass (m) = Energy (E/c2)

Mass cannot be created or destroyed, it merely changes forms throughout the eternities. And these are the properties of God the Father, he cannot be created or destroyed. I have often thought on the following verse...

And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever: - genesis 3:2

Man is become as one of us... To know good and evil... My gosh! What a statement! And I wonder what transpired in eternities past for the Father God to make such a statement. The trinity is tough to explain even for the best of us!

The Trinity is a mystery, but there is a simple framework designed to prevent an heretical understanding, which was always there.

1. That Father's will is also the Son's will and the Spirit's will, and that the Father's action is also the Son's action and the Spirit's action (all of God's actions are from Father, by the Son and in the Spirit--unlike human beings who can only perform one these functions at a time, at best two, God is totally self-sufficient, and performs all functions of an action by himself).The Son and the Spirit are contingent upon the Father in all things.

2. All three persons of the Trinity are God in every sense, and by that I mean YHWH.

3. Each person of the Trinity is a distinct subject. For instance, the Son alone experienced crucifixion.

LinkH · Sep 13, 2016

But the question I have in the back of my mind is where and when did God reveal these details about Himself? Can we definitively answer these questions from something revealed through the prophets, through Christ, or through the apostles? Does the Bible say anything about it?

For those who take a definitive dogmatic stand, would you say that we should we consider the theological opinions of those who participated in ecumenical councils to be prophetic revelation like we do the Bible? If so, which council(s) and which participants?

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