The sequence of events

OK. I guess Jesus was wrong. Or maybe you are reading too much into the text.
Each to their own. I would rather believe what Jesus said. The dead believers are raised on the last day. Not before in a special rapture.

Douggg said:

No, Jesus was not wrong. And no, I am not reading too much into the text.

Did you read my post #20 ? One of the three mass resurrections will be on the last day.

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"9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing." 1 Thes 5:9-11

1 Thes 5:9-11 says nothing about a rapture.
It is speaking about how Jesus' great sacrifice has saved us and so we are no longer under condemnation on the day of judgement because Jesus has paid the fine for us on the cross. That does not mean that we will have a fairytale life and miss tribulation. If so, we would not be under the curse of death right now as Jesus' sacrifice would make that obsolete too. But we can have confidence on the final day.
It then goes onto say that weather we live (awake) or die (sleep) we will be with Him. So, do not worry in times of trial because if you perish at the hands of tribulation, then that is fine. You will live with Christ.
Lastly, verse 11 says to comfort each other. The Greek word for "comfort" is "parakaleō". This means to strengthen or build up. So, build each other up so that if you do face tribulation, you will be able to stand.

To say these verses are to do with the rapture is reading your own theory to them. That is eisegesis and not exegesis.

Douggg said:

The eisegesis is coming from you, not me. The verses don't say anything about the last day in them.

In Revelation 19, Jesus returns to this earth from heaven accompanied with His Bride. HIs Bride is the resurrected/rapture saints taken to heaven before the great tribulation began.


1Thessalonians 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake [rapture] or sleep [resurrection], we should live together with him.

The resurrection/rapture event is in that verse. wake and sleep are in 1Thessalonians 4:16-17 as well.

1Thessalonians 4:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [their bodies resurrected]
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up [raptured] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1Thessalonians 4:14-18 and 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 finish with the same message to comfort one another - because by the resurrection;rapture event, Christians are not subjected to have to go through the great tribulation time of God's wrath.

You have not considered 1 Thessalonians 5:1-8, as it defines that resurrection/rapture event will be before the day of the Lord begins when God's wrath will be poured out at a time when the world is in great rebellion against Him.

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This is all seriously bad and wrong beliefs:
There is no such thing as a 'resurrection/rapture', anywhere in the Bible.
Jesus Returns with the angel army of heaven.
The Lords terrible Day of wrath is the next Prophesied event to happen and everyone will experience it.

Bible teaching is clear: We must endure until the end, and if we call upon the Name of the Lord, we shall be saved. Protected as we pass through the end time things, as Prophesied.

Douggg said:

The eisegesis is coming from you, not me. The verses don't say anything about the last day in them.

In Revelation 19, Jesus returns to this earth from heaven accompanied with His Bride. HIs Bride is the resurrected/rapture saints taken to heaven before the great tribulation began.

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Nothing in 1 Thessalonians 5 introduces a rapture or a separate resurrection.
Paul does not need to repeat the phrase “last day” in 1 Thes 5 for the concept to be present because we know that everyone is judged on the last day. The day of judgement. Jesus died on the cross so that we would not have to face that condemnation. We be judged but will not be condemned because of Jesus great sacrifice. He took our punishment.

Revelation 19 does show Jesus returning with His Bride, but the text does not say the Bride was taken to heaven before the tribulation in a rapture.
In Revelation, the Bride is clothed in fine linen, bright and clean, the white robes of the faithful. We see who the ones are that are given fine white linen in Rev 6:9 and also in Rev 7:9-14. It is the martyrs who died and are already in heaven because they died. The focus is on those who remained faithful through trial, not on a secret pre-tribulation removal.
Saying the Bride was raptured before the tribulation is an assumption added to the text, not what Revelation actually states.

Therefore, the charge of eisegesis applies to reading a pre-tribulation rapture into passages that never mention it. You are adding so much assumption to the text it is incredible.

keras said:

This is all seriously bad and wrong beliefs:
There is no such thing as a 'resurrection/rapture', anywhere in the Bible.
Jesus Returns with the angel army of heaven.
The Lords terrible Day of wrath is the next Prophesied event to happen and everyone will experience it.

Bible teaching is clear: We must endure until the end, and if we call upon the Name of the Lord, we shall be saved. Protected as we pass through the end time things, as Prophesied.

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I agree. Although you and I may differ on who returns with Jesus. I believe that the army in fine white linen is the martyrs as mentions in Rev 6:9 and Rev 7:9-14 as well as angels (Matt 16:27).
Ultimately, we both agree that the idea of an early rapture comes only from reading one’s own interpretation and heavily inserting the idea into the Scriptures, not from what the text actually says.

Douggg said:

No, it does not say white linen in either Revelation 6:9, nor Revelation 7:9-14. It says white robes in those verses.

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You’re correct that Revelation 6:9 and 7:9–14 say “white robes,” not “fine linen.” But Revelation 19:8 explicitly says the Bride is given fine linen, bright and clean, and the text makes clear this represents righteous deeds.
The white robes of the martyrs in 6:9 and 7:9–14 are the same idea, they are clothed in purity and victory through faithfulness, which is what the “fine linen” symbolizes. It’s not about the literal material, but the quality and holiness of their reward.
So, it’s reasonable to see the martyrs as the ones highlighted here, clothed in righteousness and ready for the marriage of the Lamb, rather than claiming all Christians indiscriminately.

Douggg said:

Their souls are in heaven. The great tribulation martyrs are not resurrected until after Jesus returns with His Bride. The great tribulation martyrs are resurrected in Revelation 20:4-6.

Differently, the Bride of Jesus accompanies Jesus when he descends from heaven to this earth. Jesus is pictured in Revelation 19:11 riding a white horse. His Bride, in Revelation 19:14, as the armies which were in heaven, are also pictured following him upon white horses.

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Revelation is not always chronological. John shifts between visions and symbolic groupings to communicate themes, not a strict timeline.
For example, Revelation 20:4–6 describes the martyrs reigning with Christ for a thousand years. This does not have to occur after Revelation 19 — it is a thematic vision of the reward of the faithful, which can precede or overlap other visions of Christ’s return.
Similarly, Revelation 19:7–14 depicts Christ returning with the armies of heaven, emphasizing the victory of the faithful. The Bride represents faithful, victorious saints clothed in righteousness, not a secret pre-tribulation removal. Reading it chronologically as a rapture assumes a linear timeline that Revelation itself does not explicitly provide.

Douggg said:

I have never said before "the tribulation", but before "the great tribulation". Also, I have never said "pre-tribulation" rapture.

Do you understand what begins the great tribulation ?

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I understand that “the great tribulation” refers to the intense period of judgment and persecution Jesus described in Matthew 24:21, when the world is in rebellion and suffering is at its peak. As Matthew 24:15–22 shows, believers are warned to flee and be ready, not to be taken out beforehand; the faithful remain through the tribulation and are preserved by God, not raptured away.

But even if we define the start of the great tribulation, nowhere does Revelation or Thessalonians say that Christ removes His Bride before this period begins. Assigning a “before the great tribulation” removal is still an assumption not stated in the text at all. You are adding your view to the text.

The focus of Revelation and 1 Thessalonians is on Christ’s return, the resurrection of the faithful, and their vindication, not a secret extraction of believers prior to tribulation.

1Tonne said:

I agree. Although you and I may differ on who returns with Jesus. I believe that the army in fine white linen is the martyrs as mentions in Rev 6:9 and Rev 7:9-14 as well as angels (Matt 16:27).

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Yes, Rev 20:4 is clear: the GT martyrs do come with Jesus at His Return. BUT just as spiritual souls. ONLY after the Return, will they 'come to life again', and reign with Jesus for the next thousand years.
The dead people referred to in Rev 6:9 are all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still counting.
The living people in Rev 7:14, are those who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.

I note that Matthew 16:27, is confirmation that ONLY angels will accompany Jesus at His Return.

1Tonne said:

Ultimately, we both agree that the idea of an early rapture comes only from reading one’s own interpretation and heavily inserting the idea into the Scriptures, not from what the text actually says.

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The poor saps who are locked into the false 'rapture to heaven' theory, are seemingly unable to change their beliefs. As Isaiah 29:9-12 says.
The Lord does this to them because they have failed to correctly understand Prophecy and have taken an easy way out. They have the incredible and unbelievable idea of them sitting up in heaven, watching the world go thru the Great Tribulation. This is simply impossible and can never happen. It is in fact, an indictment against them for thinking they are good enough to go directly to heaven.

What they fail to see, is how the Lord will mightily Bless His peoples, as they go to live in all of the Holy Land. The peoples that John sees in Rev 7:9 and in many other Prophesies; Ezekiel 34:11-16, +
This is proved by Daniel 7:25 and Revelation 13:5-7, where the 'beast' conquers the Holy Peoples living there. God allows this in order to further test them and many will fail as we see in Revelation 12, where the Christians are divided into 2 groups: one taken to safety, the rest must remain.

Douggg said:

btw, you said that there is no resurrection of any type prior to the last day when the resurrection of Revelation 20:11-15 takes place. So are you ready to admit that you were error about that?

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Please read post number 13. I said "So, when does anyone rise before the last day? Only in the case of the martyrs. Revelation 20:4-6 speaks of an early resurrection for those who are killed for their faith." So, there is a resurrection of the martyrs before the last day. These are the only people who are raised, no other believer.
Read Rev 20:4-6.

"4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 But the rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years."


In verse 5 it says that the martyrs are raised in the first resurrection. It specifically states, "This is the first resurrection". But you have a resurrection of all dead believer first and then near the end another resurrection of the martyrs. So, your theology is contradicting the bible. You have the martyrs in a second resurrection.

Douggg said:

What ? You are claiming that the great tribulation martyrs are resurrected before Jesus returns ?

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Yes. They are raised and return with Christ. They are dress in a fine white robe just as the army that return with Jesus have.
As I pointed out just above, you have the order of things pretty badly mixed up. e.g.-the martyrs raised in the second resurrection.

Douggg said:

I never said "secret" nor "pre-tribulational". You are inserting terms of the pre-trbulation rapture view, pre-trib for short. Which the proponents of that view define the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 as "the tribulation. I don't agree with their terminology, as the 70th week will not all be tribulation.

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Looking at the chart you posted that I have included above, it looks like you have a resurrection/rapture before the great tribulation. So, I say that you believe in a pre-tribulation rapture.

Douggg said:

Jesus in Matthew 24:15-21 defines that the great tribulation begins when the abomination of desolation is standing in a holy place. Daniel 12:11 states that the abomination of desolation will be set up. In Revelation 13:14-15, the false prophet has a statue image made of the beast (king).

Putting those three references together, the great tribulation will begin what a statue image of the beast-king is placed on the temple mount.

In Revelation 13:15, persons refusing to worship the statue image of the beast after it has come to life and speaks will face being killed for refusing to worship it.

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I agree. Believers who worship the image of the beast will be put to death. So, no rapture. The only rapture is on the very last day of time.

Douggg said:

The seven vials of God wrath, Revelation 16, are poured out during the great tribulation. 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 says Christians are not appointed to God's wrath. Hew will Christians escape that time ? By the resurrection/rapture event.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

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1) “Not appointed to wrath” does not mean removal from the earth
In 1 Thessalonians 5:9, God’s wrath refers to final judgment and condemnation, not exemption from suffering or persecution on earth. We know that this verse is talking about the final judgment because it talks about how Jesus' great sacrifice saved us.
Believers have always endured tribulation while being protected from God’s condemning wrath (Rom 5:9; John 16:33; Acts 14:22).

If “not appointed to wrath” meant removal from tribulation, then Christians should never suffer at all, not even the curse of death, which Scripture plainly denies.

2) Revelation never says believers are removed before the bowls
Revelation shows saints present during severe judgment (Rev 6:9–11; 7:14; 13:7; 14:12). Protection from wrath does not require physical removal; God repeatedly preserves His people through judgment (Israel in Egypt, Noah through the flood, Daniel in Babylon).

3) Luke 21 does not teach a rapture escape
“Escape” in Luke 21:36 means to endure and stand vindicated before the Son of Man, not to be taken away beforehand. The same passage warns believers to stay alert, not to expect evacuation.

Scripture teaches deliverance from final judgment, not removal from tribulation. Reading a resurrection/rapture escape into these passages is still an assumption added to the text, not something the text actually says.

keras said:

Ys, Rev 20:4 is clear: the GT martyrs do come with Jesus at His Return. BUT just as spiritual souls. ONLY after the Return, will they 'come to life again', and reign with Jesus for the next thousand years.
The dead people referred to in Rev 6:9 are all the Christian martyrs since Stephen and still counting.
The living people in Rev 7:14, are those who stood firm in their faith during the terrible Day of the Lords fiery wrath, the Sixth Seal.

I note that Matthew 16:27, is confirmation that ONLY angels will accompany Jesus at His Return.

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I think we differ on this. But that is fine.
The rest I tend to agree.

Douggg said:

No, escape do not mean to endure, nor does it mean stand "vindicated" before the Son of Man.

Escape means not having to go through the great tribulation by being raptured out of this world, taken to heaven, where is Jesus is.

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A 'rapture to heaven' cannot be construed out of Luke 21:36. To say it does, is serious error:

Luke 21:34-36 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.
So do you believe this prophecy proves a 'rapture to heaven' of the Church?
If so you are very deceived.

What does verse 35 say? The Day of Wrath will come upon everyone.
Verse 34 says we must be careful, or that Day will catch us unawares. Therefore; if we do carefully study and are aware of the signs, we can know that Day, or at least the season.
But, either way, that Day will come and we will be here to experience it.

Verse 35 says 'escape all these things'. This cannot mean a removal away from, as that is a direct contradiction of the previous 2 verses.
What it does mean, is told to us in many prophesies, of the Lord's protection during that terrible Day. Isaiah 43:2, Psalms 23 & 91, Isaiah 30:26b, +
The Revised English Bible translates Luke 21:36 correctly: ….worthy to pass safely through all these things…

Douggg said:

You don't understand. The term pre-tribulation rapture does not mean pre-great tribulation rapture. Pre-tribulation rapture means pre-70th week rapture, as the proponents of the Pre-tribulation rapture view erroneously consider the entire 70th week as "tribulation".

Here is a chart of the pre-tribulation rapture view. The pre-tribulation rapture view is that the rapture takes place sometime before the 70th week of Daniel 9:27 begins.

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Whether you call it “pre-trib” or “pre-70th week,” the problem is the same: the text never states such a removal.

Douggg said:

The resurrection of the great tribulation martyrs Revelation 20:4-6 is called the first resurrection relative to the millennium.

The next resurrection will be after the millennium is over and is the resurrection in Revelation 20:11-15.

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On this point, I actually agree with you.
Revelation 20:4-6 identifies the first resurrection as the resurrection of the martyrs only to reign with Christ during the millennium. The next resurrection occurs after the thousand years at the very last day as Jesus said, and everyone, believer and non-believer, alive and dead will be raised and go to the Great White Throne (Rev 20:11–15).

Where we still differ is that your system requires another resurrection of believers somewhere before this, prior to the millennium, which Revelation never describes. Revelation consistently highlights the martyrs as those who are raised to reign, not a prior, separate resurrection of all believers.

So, while I agree that the “first resurrection” is defined relative to the millennium, I do not see any biblical basis for inserting an earlier resurrection/rapture of believers before it. There is only the resurrection of the martyrs before the 1000 years and then lastly on the last day, those in the grave and those that are alive will be raised and judged.

Douggg said:

No, escape do not mean to endure, nor does it mean stand "vindicated" before the Son of Man.

Escape means not having to go through the great tribulation by being raptured out of this world, taken to heaven, where is Jesus is.

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.

35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.

36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Matthew 24:
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

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1) “Escape” in Luke 21 does not mean removal from the earth
Luke 21:36 says believers are to pray to “escape all these things” and to “stand before the Son of Man.” The verse itself defines the result of escape as standing, not evacuation. Nothing in the text says “taken to heaven” or “removed from the world.”
Throughout Scripture, God’s people often “escape” judgment by being preserved through it, not removed from it (Israel in Egypt, Noah through the flood, Daniel in Babylon).

2) The context of Luke 21 is endurance and alertness, not rapture
Jesus repeatedly warns believers to watch, endure, and remain faithful so that the Day does not overtake them unprepared. If the teaching were rapture-escape, the warnings to flee, endure, and stay alert would be unnecessary as they will be swiftly taken away out of harm's way. There would be no need to stay alert.

3) Matthew 24 must be read in its full context (vv. 15–22)
In Matthew 24:38-39, Jesus says those who were “taken” in Noah’s day were taken away by the flood in judgment, not rescued. Noah was the one who remained alive. This fits the earlier context of Matthew 24:15–22, where Jesus warns believers that when the abomination of desolation appears, those in the field must flee immediately. Jesus later gives an example of this, if there are two in the field and one is taken, he is taken to tribulation by the AoD army.
The danger is not missing a rapture, but being caught and taken by tribulation and death.
NOTE: Check out verse 18. It specifically talks about the person in the field. If he procrastinates, he will be taken. So, two are in the field, one procrastinates (gets his cloak) and is taken while the other person survives because he did not procrastinate. He listened to Jesus' warnings and fled.

So, when Jesus later says, “one will be taken and one left” (vv. 40–41), the immediate context already defines what “taken” means, - being seized in judgment, not being removed to safety.
Reading “taken” as rapture ignores the flow of Jesus’ warning and reverses the meaning He just established.

Luke 21 and Matthew 24 teach readiness, endurance, and vindication at Christ’s coming, not removal from tribulation. Interpreting “escape” or “taken” as rapture imports a theological system into the text rather than drawing meaning from it.

Ultimately, Matthew 24 calls believers to be ready in Christ and not to procrastinate in life. To live faithfully, remain alert, obey His warnings, and endure through trials. Not to expect removal from tribulation. Readiness means a real relationship with Jesus expressed in perseverance, vigilance, and obedience until His visible return.