• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

the self replicating watch argument

Status
Not open for further replies.

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat

If it is a multicellular thing that starts as one cell and keeps adding cells until it becomes an adult, then it is an animal that looks like a car, not a car .

If it builds a copy of itself by machining full size components and assembling them together, then it is a robotic machine shop on wheels, is probably the size and complexity of detroit, and is impractical as a car .

And if it uses magic, then it is fiction.

Neither should be called a car. But rather than get hung up on semantics, is there a reason that any of this matters?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
The point here is to ask, what properties does and object have to have before being termed a "car". I think it is pretty clear. It has to be self propelling, move via it's wheels, have somewhere for a driver to sit and be drivable.

This is a car?

 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
so first: are we both agree that a car with a self replicating system is still a car?.

Wow, it's like trying to argue with a brick wall...

I have already made my thoughts on this abundantly clear.

[/quote]as for your question: i think it may still be a car. just without an engine. so or so: its irrelevant to my question.[/QUOTE]

Okay. Now what if I removed all the windows so there was just metal plates instead of glass. Would it still be a car?
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
What do sharks and dolphins have to do with anything? Sharks and dolphins are defined by their DNA, and frankly look nothing like one another.

Actually they look quite similar, since they both live in the same environment and they both have similar predatory lifestyles. The same pressures have been acting on both of them.


By your logic, this is a car.



My point is that cars are built, not made. If cars can reproduce and evolve, then they could turn into something that does NOT fit your definition, yet we would still have to call it a car.
 
Upvote 0

Bugeyedcreepy

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2016
1,660
1,431
Canberra, Australia
✟95,748.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
This is a stupid argument. 20 years ago cars didn't have sat nav. Would you really have said (20 years ago) that a car that had satnav wasn't really a car because "cars don't do that"?
Nope! SatNav isn't a trait uniquely exclusive of Cars now, is it. It's conceivable that technology that was available to other mechanised equipment 20 years ago (jets, military, etc) would one day make its way into garden variety vehicles today. Likewise, AI and self-piloting that's on the bleeding edge of technological development now will likely find itself in consumer grade goods in 20 years.

Cars don't have babies, this is inherently a "living organism" trait. If cars get DNA and start having babies with ever so slightly different DNA with each generation, then I'll grant you that. So far, such a "silicone-dna" setup isn't real.

Until then, Cars don't have babies. Why not use Horses or Camels or something that actually does have babies and transport people rather than a hypothetical idea that has no basis? Do you even know why he wants to talk about pregnant cars in the first place?
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
Okay. Now what if I removed all the windows so there was just metal plates instead of glass. Would it still be a car?
sure. a car without a window. what is your point actually? so do you agree that a car that is able to reproduce is a car or not?
 
Upvote 0

Kylie

Defeater of Illogic
Nov 23, 2013
15,069
5,309
✟327,545.00
Country
Australia
Gender
Female
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
sure. a car without a window. what is your point actually? so do you agree that a car that is able to reproduce is a car or not?

Okay, let me speed things up a little bit...

So the car continues to evolve. It becomes smaller. The seats become metal cages. The sunroof expands so that it is constantly open and takes up nearly the whole roof. The height adjust on the seats becomes greater so the seats can emerge halfway out of the sun roof. The heating elements that keep the back window fog free get larger and cover all the sides of the car on the inside.

Is it still a car?
 
Upvote 0

xianghua

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2017
5,215
555
44
tel aviv
✟119,055.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Judaism
Marital Status
Single
i dont know. there is a limit where we can change a car without making it a car anymore. i dont know where is the limit but no one know actually. now, do you agree that a car that is able to reproduce is a car or not? its very simple question.
 
Upvote 0

Jon Osterman

Well-Known Member
Jan 23, 2018
716
473
Glasgow
✟66,548.00
Country
United Kingdom
Gender
Male
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
My point is that cars are built, not made.

A car was mentioned in this thread as an example of a complicated object that couldn't evolve and therefore must be created. We have pointed out that an object fitting reasonable definitions of a car could evolve if given some additional properties. The response seems to be that these additional properties, in your view, stop the object being a car.

In other words, your argument is "car's can't evolve because if an object that functions and looks like a car could evolve, then it wouldn't be a car". Is that a fair representation of your position? Do you see the circular logic here?

If cars can reproduce and evolve, then they could turn into something that does NOT fit your definition, yet we would still have to call it a car.

No. Early mammals reproduced and evolved into humans, but we don't give these species the same names or regard them as the same thing.
 
Upvote 0

Bugeyedcreepy

Well-Known Member
Jun 7, 2016
1,660
1,431
Canberra, Australia
✟95,748.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Private
No. Early mammals reproduced and evolved into humans, but we don't give these species the same names or regard them as the same thing.
Yes we do, Humans are mammals. Are you saying humans aren't mammals?

In the same fashion, you'll probably call a reproducing car that grows traits allowing it to fly would probably get labelled a flying car instead of an aircraft... just like we have flying fish, flying lizards & sugar gliders, etc.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
do you agree that a car that is able to reproduce is a car or not? its very simple question.
How does it reproduce?

If it is a giant robotic machine shop on wheels that builds and assembles other machine shops on wheels one part at a time, I call it a giant robotic machine shop on wheels. It is no more a "car" than a giant dump truck is a car.

If it makes a single cell offspring that begins to divide into multiple cells with each of the cells specializing as dictated by genetic code, eventually becoming an adult, I would call it an animal (or an alien life form).

If it does it by magic I call it a magic car.

I think there is less than one chance in 10^100,000 that any such vehicle will exist in the next billion years that is even remotely close to your car picture.

Once again how does it reproduce? 2900 posts into this thread you still have not answered.
 
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
In other words, your argument is "car's can't evolve because if an object that functions and looks like a car could evolve, then it wouldn't be a car". Is that a fair representation of your position? Do you see the circular logic here?

I don't see any circular logic in Kylie's position. We define objects based on fundamental properties of that object. In the case of a car, it's an artificially-manufactured object designed for transporting individuals. And passenger cars get defined by additional criteria like number of axles and curb weight.

By their nature (being artificially manufactured objects made of metal, rubber and plastic), cars do not reproduce.

In order to have one which does reproduce we need to figure out how that could be possible. Which gives us a few options:

1) By magic, which seems to be xianghua's argument. In which case we are dealing with purely fantasy objects. This also renders his entire argument moot as fantasy objects have no bearing on the real world.

2) By constructing an artificially manufactured object actually capable of reproduction. Which means constructing something capable of self-manufacturer, including resource gathering, refinement, and production. Which per doubtingmerle's point, would be more akin to a mobile factory than a car.

3) Or fundamentally changing the object into something else entirely. For which the closest analog for an object used for transportation but also capable of reproduction is a horse. But nobody would confuse a horse with a car. They are fundamentally different things.

Those are your options. Only option #1 arguably gives you a car capable of self-reproduction, but since it's purely a fantasy object not bound by physical laws in the real world, any argument derived from it is irrelevant. And given #2 or #3, you're no longer dealing with a car.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

pitabread

Well-Known Member
Jan 29, 2017
12,920
13,373
Frozen North
✟344,333.00
Country
Canada
Gender
Male
Faith
Agnostic
Marital Status
Private
say like a living creature. it will be a car in this case or not?

Obviously it would not be a car since a living creature would be fundamentally different than a car. And a car (as manufactured) is fundamentally different than a living creature.

Things that are fundamentally different cannot be the same thing. Even children know this.
 
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
say like a living creature. it will be a car in this case or not?
Already answered. That would not be a car. That would be a horse that resembles a car.

Would you like me to answer this same question a thousand times more?
 
Last edited:
Reactions: Bugeyedcreepy
Upvote 0

doubtingmerle

I'll think about it.
Site Supporter
Jan 28, 2003
9,969
2,521
Pennsylvania
Visit site
✟534,373.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Humanist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
say like a living creature. it will be a car in this case or not?
A horse that resembles a car is far different from a mechanical car.

Animals can do some things non-living machines cannot do. Non-living machines can do some things that animals cannot do.

Things that non-living cars can do that unmodified animals probably never will do include have computer chips, have a welded chassis, survive the high temperatures of an internal combustion engine, and have a transmission.
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.