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The Scientific Method & Macroevolution?

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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Hi there gang!

After a short stay in Purgatory, where I got to watch the goings on here without being able to comment -- I see that Wormwood has been sowing seeds of confusion -- again.

As the original post : Lines of Evidence reached the 1000 post mark and has begun to fizzle out as Lines of Evidence (2), I'd like to bring forward two questions which I believe might be worth considering:

A. WHAT EXACTLY IS: THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD?

B. WHAT IS THE PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF MACROEVOLUTION?
 

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A. WHAT EXACTLY IS: THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD?
From amasci:
There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.


The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.
"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?


Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.

The scientific method is a joke.
B. WHAT IS THE PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF MACROEVOLUTION?
Believing you have all the time in the universe to take baby steps from Boston to L.A.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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From amasci:


The scientific method is a joke.

You have not yet stated whether the views expressed, in this cut-n-paste job, are ones you are willing to defend or not. Don't you think it might be better if you present your own thoughts, instead of posting this? :doh:

Believing you have all the time in the universe to take baby steps from Boston to L.A.

Would you please explain your quip, in a more exacting fashion? :confused:
 
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whois

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As the original post : Lines of Evidence reached the 1000 post mark and has begun to fizzle out as Lines of Evidence (2), I'd like to bring forward two questions which I believe might be worth considering:

A. WHAT EXACTLY IS: THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD?
the "method" isn't exact in theory or practice.
it's a method of discovery, and you use it more than you can imagine.
it's a natural outgrowth of mans desire to know.
B. WHAT IS THE PROPER UNDERSTANDING OF MACROEVOLUTION?
apparently it means the result of accumulating changes, over the course of an indefinite time.
apparently, some species never "evolve".
 
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AV1611VET

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Don't you think it might be better if you present your own thoughts, instead of posting this?
What's this then?
The scientific method is a joke.
There's my own thoughts in a nutshell.
Would you please explain your quip, in a more exacting fashion?
Sure.

Here's the world's current understanding:
Wikipedia said:
Macroevolution is evolution on a scale of separated gene pools. Macroevolutionary studies focus on change that occurs at or above the level of species, in contrast with microevolution, which refers to smaller evolutionary changes (typically described as changes in allele frequencies) within a species or population. Macroevolution and microevolution describe fundamentally identical processes on different time scales.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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the "method" isn't exact in theory or practice.
it's a method of discovery, and you use it more than you can imagine.
it's a natural outgrowth of mans desire to know.

The scientific method has it's limitations:

"... in science there is no 'knowledge', in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science, we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth. ... This view means, furthermore, that we have no proofs in science (excepting, of course, pure mathematics and logic). In the empirical sciences, which alone can furnish us with information about the world we live in, proofs do not occur, if we mean by 'proof' an argument which establishes once and for ever the truth of a theory."
Sir Karl Popper, The Problem of Induction, 1953

apparently it means the result of accumulating changes, over the course of an indefinite time.
apparently, some species never "evolve".

A rather brief summary, but then I don't recall seeing your posts in the early part of Lines of Evidence. Try this on for size, as well as the link:

'....Macroevolution is evolution on the "grand scale" resulting in the origin of higher taxa. In evolutionary theory, macroevolution involves common ancestry, descent with modification, speciation, the genealogical relatedness of all life, transformation of species, and large scale functional and structural changes of populations through time, all at or above the species level (Freeman and Herron 2004; Futuyma 1998; Ridley 1993). ....'*

---
* 29+ Evidences for Macroevolution: The Scientific Case for Common Descent
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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What's this then?

There's my own thoughts in a nutshell.

It's very short. It's not very helpful. Perhaps you might explain why you think that the scientific method is (as you say) a joke?

Sure.

Here's the world's current understanding:

Wikipedia is good for some things, but not much good for science.
 
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MissRowy

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I agree. For science stuff you really need to get the scholarly and peer reviewed articles. And you have to read past the abstract.
Im doing a research subject this semester so forgive me if I start blabbering!
 
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AV1611VET

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It's very short. It's not very helpful. Perhaps you might explain why you think that the scientific method is (as you say) a joke?
Sure.

Once again:
amasci said:
There is no single list called "The Scientific Method." It is a myth.


The rules of a science-fair typically require that students follow THE SCIENTIFIC METHOD, or in other words, hypothesis-experiment-conclusion. The students must propose a hypothesis and test it by experiment. This supposedly is the "Scientific Method" used by all scientists. Supposedly, if you don't follow the rigidly defined "Scientific Method" listed in K-6 textbooks, then you're not doing science. (Some science fairs even ban astronomy and paleontology projects. After all, where's the "experiment" in these?)

Unfortunately this is wrong, and there is no single "Scientific Method" as such. Scientists don't follow a rigid procedure-list called "The Scientific Method" in their daily work. The procedure-list is a myth spread by K-6 texts. It is an extremely widespread myth, and even some scientists have been taken in by it, but this doesn't make it any more real. "The Scientific Method" is part of school and school books, and is not how science in general is done. Real scientists use a large variety of methods (perhaps call them methods of science rather than "The Scientific Method.") Hypothesis / experiment / conclusion is one of these, and it's very important in experimental science such as physics and chemistry, but it's certainly not the only method. It would be a mistake to elevate it above all others. We shouldn't force children to memorize any such procedure list. And we shouldn't use it to exclude certain types of projects from science fairs! If "The Scientific Method" listed in a grade school textbook proves that Astronomy is not a science, then it's the textbook which is wrong, not Astronomy.
"Ask a scientist what he conceives the scientific method to be and he adopts an expression that is at once solemn and shifty-eyed: solemn, because he feels he ought to declare an opinion; shifty-eyed because he is wondering how to conceal the fact that he has no opinion to declare." - Sir Peter Medawar
There are many parts of science that cannot easily be forced into the mold of "hypothesis-experiment-conclusion." Astronomy is not an experimental science, and Paleontologists don't perform Paleontology experiments... so is it not proper Science if you study stars or classify extinct creatures?


Or, if a scientist has a good idea for designing a brand new kind of measurement instrument (e.g. Newton and the reflecting telescope) ...that certainly is "doing science." Humphrey Davy says "Nothing tends so much to the advancement of knowledge as the application of a new instrument." But where is The Hypothesis? Where is The Experiment? The Atomic Force Microscope (STM/AFM) revolutionized science. Yet if a student invented the very first reflector telescope or the very first AFM, wouldn't such a device be rejected from many school science fairs? After all, it's not an experiment, and the lists called "Scientific Method" say nothing about exploratory observation. Some science teachers would reject the STM as science; calling it 'mere engineering,' yet like the Newtonian reflector, the tunneling microscope is a revolution that opened up an entire new branch of science. Since it's instrument-inventing, not hypothesis-testing, should we exclude it as science? Were the creators of the STM not doing science when they came up with that device? In defining Science, the Nobel prize committee disagrees with the science teachers and science fair judges. The researchers who created the STM won the 1986 Nobel prize in physics. I'd say that if someone wins a Nobel prize in physics, it's a good bet that their work qualifies as "science."

Forcing kids to follow a caricature of scientific research distorts science, and it really isn't necessary in the first place.

Another example: great discoveries often come about when scientists notice anomalies. They see something inexplicable during older research, and that triggers some new research. Or sometimes they notice something weird out in Nature; something not covered by modern theory. Isaac Asimov said it well:
"The most exciting phrase to hear in science, the one that heralds new discoveries, is not 'Eureka!' (I found it!) but 'That's funny...' "
This suggests that lots of important science comes NOT from proposing hypotheses or even from performing experiments, but instead comes from unguided observation and curiosity-driven exploration: from sniffing about while learning to see what nobody else can see. Scientific discovery comes from something resembling "informed messing around," or unguided play. Yet the "Scientific Method" listed in textbooks says nothing about this, their lists start out with "form a hypothesis." As a result, educators treat science as deadly serious business, and "messing around" is sometimes dealt with harshly.
I'd say that about covers it.
Wikipedia is good for some things, but not much good for science.
I take it you don't support them monetarily?
 
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AV1611VET

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I agree. For science stuff you really need to get the scholarly and peer reviewed articles. And you have to read past the abstract.
Im doing a research subject this semester so forgive me if I start blabbering!
Science is way over my head.

I can't understand Wikipedia, let alone a peer-review article.
 
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MissRowy

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Sure.

Once again:

I'd say that about covers it.

I take it you don't support them monetarily?

Id be careful as people could take that comment the wrong way. I understand where you are coming from but some others may take it the wrong way.

Wikipedia does have its good points but not for science and I wouldnt rely on it for religious study either.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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I agree. For science stuff you really need to get the scholarly and peer reviewed articles. And you have to read past the abstract.
Im doing a research subject this semester so forgive me if I start blabbering!

Yes, absolutely "YES!" :thumbsup:

No harm, blather away. Where and what are you studying?
 
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AV1611VET

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Wikipedia does have its good points but not for science and I wouldnt rely on it for religious study either.

I didn't know that.

To a person like me, just about anything a site like Wikipedia says sounds plausible, since I'm not science savvy.

I'd believe almost anything they said in the area of science.
 
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MissRowy

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Im studying Nursing at the University of Western Sydney and one of my subjects is Research Principles in Nursing & Midwifery so I need to be able to read articles and look beyond the abstract.

I also have a degree in Religious Studies so I can tell if they are accurate or not. My dream would be to do my PhD in Studies of Religion but not right now.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Im studying Nursing at the University of Western Sydney and one of my subjects is Research Principles in Nursing & Midwifery so I need to be able to read articles and look beyond the abstract.

I also have a degree in Religious Studies so I can tell if they are accurate or not. My dream would be to do my PhD in Studies of Religion but not right now.

Oh, back in the 70s I did a little semi-related nursing when I worked as a reception officer in the accident (emergency) unit. It wasn't "hands on" like the doctors and nurses, but I sure got a real sense of it. Of course, being a patient can do that too. ^_^
I was in para-military for a few years, and have done most of the First Aid course (at one time or the other) -- but it was all "hands on!" -- the academic side was more practical than something as nebulous as the scientific method, or for that matter something like Evolution.
Now days, one cannot do nursing or doctoring without a proper understanding of what Evolution is. It's pretty much a compulsory thing, which must be very hard for people who reject it as begin unscientific, or write it off because of some religious bias?
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Miss Rowy,

I think I aught to clarify my use of the word 'nebulous', with regard to the scientific method and Evolution. I mean '....difficult to see, understand, describe etc.'* rather than 'vague'

.... -- the academic side was more practical than something as nebulous as the scientific method, or for that matter something like Evolution.
Now days, one cannot do nursing or doctoring without a proper understanding of what Evolution is. It's pretty much a compulsory thing, which must be very hard for people who reject it as begin unscientific, or write it off because of some religious bias?

---
* Nebulous - Definition and More from the Free Merriam-Webster Dictionary
 
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crjmurray

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Oh, back in the 70s I did a little semi-related nursing when I worked as a reception officer in the accident (emergency) unit. It wasn't "hands on" like the doctors and nurses, but I sure got a real sense of it. Of course, being a patient can do that too. ^_^
I was in para-military for a few years, and have done most of the First Aid course (at one time or the other) -- but it was all "hands on!" -- the academic side was more practical than something as nebulous as the scientific method, or for that matter something like Evolution.
Now days, one cannot do nursing or doctoring without a proper understanding of what Evolution is. It's pretty much a compulsory thing, which must be very hard for people who reject it as begin unscientific, or write it off because of some religious bias?

Paramilitary? Care to elaborate on that? Where I'm from that could mean a lot of different things.
 
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lewiscalledhimmaster

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Paramilitary? Care to elaborate on that? Where I'm from that could mean a lot of different things.

Essentially policing. i.e. law enforcement relative to the seashore act, park by laws and road traffic ordinances, as well as life saving and "hands on" on-the-spot basic medic stuff.
 
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crjmurray

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Essentially policing. i.e. law enforcement relative to the seashore act, park by laws and road traffic ordinances, as well as life saving and "hands on" on-the-spot basic medic stuff.

Me and you are a minority here :)
 
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