The Science of Miracles

Balstrome · Jun 10, 2011

One of the many questions, I have yet to have answered to my satisfaction, is how exactly the biblical miracles where done.

By this I mean what ability and or skill was used to do a particular miracle. What type of energy was used, in what form, applied in which manner for how long at what intensity.

Now I realise that Christians tend not to want to know how these things where done, and I have some idea why that is so. But does the question not make you wonder how these feats where preformed? Lets take the first miracle of Jesus, I believe it was the Water into Wine. How did he do that?

I am not interested in why he did it, just what processes he could have used to do it? Anyone?

solarwave · Jun 10, 2011

Balstrome said:
By this I mean what ability and or skill was used to do a particular miracle. What type of energy was used, in what form, applied in which manner for how long at what intensity.

I am not interested in why he did it, just what processes he could have used to do it? Anyone?

To be honest I havn't thought much about this, but I'll an answer off the top of my head.

I always assumed miracles were done by God manipulating the physical world from outside. So its not as if God makes up a new process for a while, but that God changes what exists in what form. So for water it to wine it could have been that some water atoms disappeared from existance and whatever molecules which made up the wine appeared into existance. Walking on water could be done by holding water molecules close together, but not by natural processes, so it wouldn't be ice how we understand it. Its possible that God could offset these changes by changes somewhere else so that it doesn't mess up the universe.

I could be quite wrong though and God might influence physics rather than overrule it.

Biker Angel · Jun 10, 2011

Balstrome said:
One of the many questions, I have yet to have answered to my satisfaction, is how exactly the biblical miracles where done.

By this I mean what ability and or skill was used to do a particular miracle. What type of energy was used, in what form, applied in which manner for how long at what intensity.

Now I realise that Christians tend not to want to know how these things where done, and I have some idea why that is so. But does the question not make you wonder how these feats where preformed? Lets take the first miracle of Jesus, I believe it was the Water into Wine. How did he do that?

I am not interested in why he did it, just what processes he could have used to do it? Anyone?

Do you think that maybe it was the power of God that did the miracles. If you know how a miracle is done, then it's not a miracle anymore is it. I don't think any human can tell you how exactly the metaphysics of miracles work on the quantum level. But I'm sure there are those who think they know, but can't do miracles themselves.

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

Balstrome said:
Now I realise that Christians tend not to want to know how these things where done, and I have some idea why that is so.

I find this accusation to be deeply offensive. Putting that aside, don't you think it's rather strange to speculate about what we didn't experience, rather than to inquire about what we have?

humblehumility · Jun 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
Putting that aside, don't you think it's rather strange to speculate about what we didn't experience, rather than to inquire about what we have?

"What we have" is vastly different from almost everything in the Bible. "What we have" is no evidence for God. Going by "what we have", it is impossible to have religious belief. Faith is entirely based on what there could be, not what we have.

There is an inquiry for "what we have" though that goes under intense scrutiny and testing (and not faith)...science.

Balstrome · Jun 10, 2011

I think that actually knowing how these miracles where done would remove the magic and wonder of the deed, diminishing them in the eyes of the faithful. So what does this leave, a trick that is not explained but is used to improve the position of the person doing the trick. Would religions be able to stand on their own without miracles? Take away the "magic" of these miracles and what do you have left? Basic human behaviour that is good for society. In other words, good without gods..

Balstrome · Jun 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
I find this accusation to be deeply offensive. Putting that aside, don't you think it's rather strange to speculate about what we didn't experience, rather than to inquire about what we have?

Are you suggesting that because we where not there for the events of the NT, that we should not discuss them? Sorry, I do not understand what your point is here?

wpage · Jun 10, 2011

God the Master of the universe and creator and giver of life...

Jesus said fill the jugs with water. It was a done deal.

The master of the feast stated " You have saved the best to last"

Thank you God for your wondrous power and glory.

Balstrome · Jun 10, 2011

solarwave said:
To be honest I havn't thought much about this,

Why have you never give it much thought? Did anyone ever suggest to you that you should not do such things?

I always assumed miracles were done by God manipulating the physical world from outside. ...
I could be quite wrong though and God might influence physics rather than overrule it.

For me the problem is the boundary between the physical world and the world your God lives in, if God's world is undetectable from this world, then it would be impossible for the boundary to be breached. If the boundary could be breached then we would be able to detect the breach and though it, God's world.

How I can suggest this, is because we (science) can detect everything in this universe. That stuff we can not detect is stuff that is not there. It's that simple. That is what stuff that is not there is, undetectable. So God affecting things in this world would register on our equipment. And yes, I am only talking from a science point of view, as that is the only way I can understand reality.

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

humblehumility said:
"What we have" is vastly different from almost everything in the Bible.

Speak for yourself!

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

Balstrome said:
Are you suggesting that because we where not there for the events of the NT, that we should not discuss them? Sorry, I do not understand what your point is here?

My point is miracles are an ongoing reality. No need to speculate about millenia ago ...

Spiritlight · Jun 10, 2011

christianity & God, its really simple- don't think too hard about it! You never think God in terms of rationality you feel God. When you pray for the holy spirit to fall on a person or congregation, You don't begin by thinking what atoms will we begin to displace with our prayer of the holy spirit. Its a spiritual energy around us you cant see it you can only feel it. Rationality wasnt born when miracles were done in the bible they used faith. They asked God in spirit and expected events to happen. Its a request.

NNSV · Jun 10, 2011

Balstrome said:
One of the many questions, I have yet to have answered to my satisfaction, is how exactly the biblical miracles where done.

By this I mean what ability and or skill was used to do a particular miracle. What type of energy was used, in what form, applied in which manner for how long at what intensity.

Now I realise that Christians tend not to want to know how these things where done, and I have some idea why that is so. But does the question not make you wonder how these feats where preformed? Lets take the first miracle of Jesus, I believe it was the Water into Wine. How did he do that?

I am not interested in why he did it, just what processes he could have used to do it? Anyone?

Let's treat this like a pseudo-math/science problem. Here is one way it could be scientifically described (especially if you were 50-200 years in the future.)

Assume Christ is God - the Most High God. Given a god has certain powers over "fire, earth, wind, water, and spirit" so to speak, and the Most High God is described in the bible as the God of these gods, then Christ turned water into wine.

Proof:
Wine is an organic compound - made up of (usually) fermented grape juice. The key component in fermentation process is

sugar --> acetic acid --> ethyl alcohol (with water, cellulose, trace pulp compounds.)

The general process for photosynthetically creating sugar is

water + carbon dioxide + energy ---> sugar + oxygen.

Then, to turn this sugar (which would be in aqueous solution) into "wine" (fructose, glucose, etc. alcohol,) we have

sugar ---> Ethyl Alcohol + carbon dioxide + energy.

Therefore, adding these processes together, the net equation is (after balancing equations)

water ---> Ethyl Alcohol + oxygen

Interesting, isn't it? Water (with assumed ambient carbon dioxide and other trace substances like pulp) can be catalyzed into reacting with the air to form alcohol and oxygen. Even energy is conserved.

We know water is given. Carbon dioxide is readily available in the environment (and Christ's body at any given second.) Therefore, Christ, being the Most High God, could have caused a chemical reaction between the ambient CO2 in the air, water in the vessels, and the energy within Himself could have been used to catalyze the reaction, because He would know how to use it (from our definition of a god.)

This is just one way. There are infinite different "logical" ways this could have happened. If you assume Christ was just a man, then the math becomes very tedious

By the way, any scientific theory requires a deal of faith. It is called a "given" or "assumption", or even "definition"... but seriously they do require at least infinitesimal faith. The same kind of faith you have that the sun will rise/set, or that your boss will pay you

razeontherock · Jun 10, 2011

Having a Boss pay you is not infinitessimal faith! It has been too much of a stretch far too often ...

NNSV · Jun 10, 2011

razeontherock said:
Having a Boss pay you is not infinitessimal faith! It has been too much of a stretch far too often ...

Yea, but you cant tell people they have that much faith in something when they don't even believe in faith... Gotta make it acceptable

But you are right, it takes tremendous faith to believe your boss will pay you, and not skip out.

Balstrome · Jun 11, 2011

razeontherock said:
My point is miracles are an ongoing reality. No need to speculate about millenia ago ...

You do realise that you have just made a claim and as such need to back it up with evidence if you want me to accept that what you say is correct. Where in today's world, lets say the last 200 years, are there any unnatural events that defy explanation by science? Lets make it easy, show just one such event.

FutureAndAHope · Jun 11, 2011

Faith is entirely based on what there could be, not what we have.

You may never have experience anything to lead you to think any different to that. But my faith is firmly based upon the miraculous. I have seen many time things that convince me of the reality of God, healing, the future predicted in events in my daily life by God's voice, God confirming the bible through signs. To know my experiences visit Know God Personally. Faith is not blind. My faith is firmly based upon what I have. It is not wishful thinking.

Balstrome · Jun 11, 2011

Spiritlight said:
Sun worship & RA, its really simple- don't think too hard about it! You never think RA in terms of rationality you feel RA. When you pray for the Holy RA to fall on a person or congregation, You don't begin by thinking what atoms will we begin to displace with our prayer of the Holy RA. Its a spiritual energy around us you cant see it you can only feel it. Rationality wasnt born when miracles were done in the Book of the Dead they used faith. They asked RA in spirit and expected events to happen. Its a request.

All me to change a few words here, and then see what we get. (Those in bold I changed) Statements of faith, for me are not evidence, I am not convinced by them.

Balstrome · Jun 11, 2011

NNSV said:
Let's treat this like a pseudo-math/science problem. Here is one way it could be scientifically described (especially if you were 50-200 years in the future.)

Assume Christ is God - the Most High God. Given a god has certain powers over "fire, earth, wind, water, and spirit" so to speak, and the Most High God is described in the bible as the God of these gods, then Christ turned water into wine.

Very nice explanation, but it does not really go far enough, does it. It uses sciencey terms but stops before it steps in the bounds of the magic needed. My point was how did Jesus focus what type of energy contained in what manner at the wine for how long and at what intensity to make the sugar that was needed to create the wine. All you said is that there was water and then there was wine and wine is formed by the process that you explained very well.

I understand why one does this, but I asked that we leave acceptance by faith out of it. And I think I have shown that faith is needed to believe these things, because they do not stand up for themselves by other means.

By the way, any scientific theory requires a deal of faith. It is called a "given" or "assumption", or even "definition"... but seriously they do require at least infinitesimal faith. The same kind of faith you have that the sun will rise/set, or that your boss will pay you

Two points here, these given,assumption and definition is shown to be false are discarded immediately in science. And secondly, faith in sun rises, as you well know, is based firstly one prior experience and also on astronomical knowledge. The difference between sun sets and water walking is that one has testable evidence, even in a theoretical model. You can build a theoretical model of sun sets but we have yet to have a working model of miracles.

The only disciple that I respect is Thomas.

Balstrome · Jun 11, 2011

NNSV said:
Yea, but you cant tell people they have that much faith in something when they don't even believe in faith... Gotta make it acceptable

But you are right, it takes tremendous faith to believe your boss will pay you, and not skip out.

If your Boss does not pay you, you still can take the photocopy machine in lieu of payment. Or seek other means to get your coin. Faith is not needed because the solution does not require it.

In fact if your Boss never will pay you, what is the need for faith anyway?

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