The Scandal

[nyj]

Back in the headlines today:

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/02/16/church.abuse/index.html

 

[Veritas]

It's because the report is due out on the scandal. It's been in my local paper nearly everyday for the last week What's worse, according to the numbers, on a per capita basis, my city is number 1 in the number of accusations. Now of course, the local SNAP folks are making a big deal about it, but when you look at the actual statistics, (and I'm not downplaying the problem or defending the abusive priests), the number of priests accused is only 12 in the last 40-50 years! But those 12 have been accusesd of 86 incidents. Comparitively, not long ago the Seattle Times had an extensive series of articles on the problem with coaches and sex abuse. Wow! In just the last 10 years, there have been over 159 coaches found guilty of abuse (usually a male abusing a female) and 89 are still coaching! You want to talk about cover-ups, pay-offs, and transferring these coaches to other schools and rec. leagues without being informed of past accusations? It makes the situation in the Catholic Church pale in comparison. Although the media didn't create the scandal, they have turned it into an exclusively Catholic problem. The Seattle Times article never got any traction in the national media because they don't want anyone thinking people other than priests do this sort of thing.

Bill Donahue was correct when he said, the media, SNAP, etc. aren't really concerned about the problem of sexual abuse of minors; they're only concerned about who's doing it. Shame on those who are willing to allow this abuse to continue in families (the most common place), schools and other religious institutions, etc. without action.

As an aside, I'm in Spokane, which is headed by bishop William Skylstad, vice-pres. of the Conference of Catholic Bishops and soon to be pres. He's pretty liberal and I'm not a fan of his, but because of his position, the local media has done it's best to humilitate the poor guy. Let us all pray for our clergy

 

[Polycarp1]

It is terrible.

May I call on all my fellow non-Catholics to pray for:

• the children who were abused
• the healing of the emotional and spiritual scars this has left on the adults who were abused as children
• true repentance by the priests who perpetrated this abuse
• healing and closure for the Catholic Church

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

 

[ThereseTheLittleFlower]

It's horrible, I wonder if some of those people made it up in order to get money, because once some people claimed to have been abused, then a bunch of others, came out of the woodworks.

God Bless

<---That's the Pope not a priest!

 

[nyj]

It's horrible, I wonder if some of those people made it up in order to get money, because once some people claimed to have been abused, then a bunch of others, came out of the woodworks.

According to the report, 1000 of the 11000 cases could not be substantiated by investigators. Almost 7,000 could be substantiated and the remaining could not be investigated as the priests accused were already dead.

 

[Christy4Christ]

People want to ruin the one true Church, this is common knowledge and that is why the very minute there is any type of news or scandal people go crazy with it.

Jesus knew that oneday there would come a time when people would try to infiltrate His church and cause unrest between it's members in order to ruin it.

I think as long as we stick together and continue to live as good Christian people we can be an example to the people who have disdain for us.

There are bad men in every single religious group and in every single secular group. I hate the fact that we Catholics have to be judged according to the sins of a few men.

Some of the allegations aren't even true! A very good friend of mine who is a priest and was our parish priest for a long long time was wrongfully accused a couple of years ago. I know that this man was innocent. Not only do I know him well but my son was one of his alter boys for two years. My son is beautiful, I am not just saying that because I am his mother. He is a really beautiful angelic looking boy. If this priest were going to go after a child I am sure he would have gone after mine! He was NEVER inapropriate in anyway with either of my sons. No one in our parish believed the allegation. He was found innocent but you know what? His name is ruined, he will never be the same.

This is super sad stuff. How many of these priests have been wrongly accused? I admit that there are probably some allegations that are true because human nature tells me that we are sinners and capable of this stuff and no priest is any less human than we are. I just hate to think of the ones who are good God loving men who just don't deserve this.


We need to keep the children who have been wronged in our prayers as well as the priests who have been wronged.

We need to pray for protection of our church as a whole. We need to pray for the softening of hearts where The Church is concerned. People harbor alot of hate for us right now.

I guess that is all I have for now..


Peace everyone,

Christy

 

[NDIrish]

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

Nononnononononono!!!! Did I mention, nonononononono?!?!?!?!

Polycarp, I respect you, and your posts are usually very well thought out, and I find myself agreeing with you more times than not....but...

nonononononononono!!!!!!

The problems are not due to priestly celebacy! Heck, I'm 29, and the greater part of my life has been celebate. Not once have I thought about abusing a child. This is a direct result of the kinds of people the seminaries let in during the 60's and 70's, where social experimentation and reform were the norm. Thankfully, this is beginning to stop. We should embrace celebacy for our priests!

On a side note, I've been doing some reading on the "Anglican rite" within the Catholic Church...I'm fascinated! If there was an Anglican-rite Catholic church near me, I would surely be attending. If you want some more info on what I'm referring to, PM me...

 

[Ampmonster]

i love the papers around me, there great
Front page, above the fold: "priest may have molested 50 years ago"
page...*flip flip flip*..17!: "high school coach molests boy yesterday."

im paraphasing but not much...

 

[Ampmonster]

poly ,
instead of changing the church thats been around 2000 years. let change the filthy, disgusting, slimy, bottomfeeding, trash bag junk on every darn medium you look at these days.

just a thought.

 

[Miss Shelby]

The problems are not due to priestly celebacy! Heck, I'm 29, and the greater part of my life has been celebate. Not once have I thought about abusing a child.

I think if more people just took the time to think of it this way instead of jumping to conclusions about things, they would realize that celibacy has nothing to do with it. And I'm not referring soley to poly, as I have seen this time and time and time again, and have never understood how people can draw this conclusion. (that celibacy is the cause of sexually deviant behavior, that is. )

All single Christians are called to a life of celibacy until they are married. How many of them end up molesting children?

Michelle

 

[Filia Mariae]

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Similarly, marriage vows cause adultery and the pledge of allegiance causes treason.

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

No, the celibate priesthood is an incredible witness to Christ in this world.

 

[Rosa Mystica]

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

This again!

Polycarp, let me ask you two things:

1) Did you know that other Christian churches also have clergy that molest? They're allowed to marry, yet they still behave in this deplorable fashion. Can you tell me what part celebacy plays in these instances?

2) If priests who molest do so b/c they can't get married, why are they going after young boys? Wouldn't it make more logical sense (in their screwed up minds) to go after women?

Thoughts?

 

[Polycarp1]

Forgive me.

I was in no way speaking against priestly celibacy -- I know and respect the reasons behind it.

What I was saying was two things: (1) the mandating of celibacy can attract the unscrupulous as well as the true vocations; and (2) there is a shortage of priests reported -- which to me seems likely to lead to diocesan formation directors feeling a little pressure to approve nearly anyone claiming a call, rather than discerning whether a true vocation is present. And that the shortage could be alleviated by permitting the ministry of men who did have a true vocation (as evidenced by their ordination and service as priests) but not the charism of celibacy (because they felt the call to leave the active priesthood to marry) -- which would cut a little slack for the formation directors to approve only those candidates who do demonstrate a true vocation -- like our Tim.
And I want to be clear that I do not believe that the majority of priests, with true vocations, even think of molestation -- just that bad apples slip through in any case. There would still be pedophiles -- but with the formation directors having a bit more "slack," they would much more rarely be accorded seminary and the priesthood.

I don't think priests with a true vocation and the gift of celibacy, or priests who have felt the call to marry and left the active priesthood, would ever molest -- what I was suggesting was simply that there was a way to help ensure enough priests are available while still weeding out the bad apples to the extent possible.

And I ask the forgiveness of anyone whom the poor way in which I wrote that post offended.

 

[thereselittleflower]

It is terrible.

May I call on all my fellow non-Catholics to pray for:

• the children who were abused
• the healing of the emotional and spiritual scars this has left on the adults who were abused as children
• true repentance by the priests who perpetrated this abuse
• healing and closure for the Catholic Church

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

hi Polycarp1

I don't know that this is a true or accurate characterization,though one that is popular . .

The EO have married priests, and I know of things that have happened with priests there . .


The issue is the Catholic Church more than anything else . . and how prominant a target it makes . .

There is so much that goes on in Protestant churches involving ministers who are married, or allowed to marry, that it really has nothing to do with celibacy . .


There are things I know of that I can't share in a public forum . . . .


Peace in Him!

 

[ThereseTheLittleFlower]

Thereselittleflower! -hugs-


Also, it's not just confined to the Catholic faith, it happens in other faiths as well. The priests are more publicized, and also the altar boy abuse cases are more publicized as well, when girls have been abused also.

God Bless

<---That's the Pope, not a priest!

 

[Veritas]

People want to ruin the one true Church, this is common knowledge and that is why the very minute there is any type of news or scandal people go crazy with it.

Jesus knew that oneday there would come a time when people would try to infiltrate His church and cause unrest between it's members in order to ruin it.

I think as long as we stick together and continue to live as good Christian people we can be an example to the people who have disdain for us.

There are bad men in every single religious group and in every single secular group. I hate the fact that we Catholics have to be judged according to the sins of a few men.

Some of the allegations aren't even true! A very good friend of mine who is a priest and was our parish priest for a long long time was wrongfully accused a couple of years ago. I know that this man was innocent. Not only do I know him well but my son was one of his alter boys for two years. My son is beautiful, I am not just saying that because I am his mother. He is a really beautiful angelic looking boy. If this priest were going to go after a child I am sure he would have gone after mine! He was NEVER inapropriate in anyway with either of my sons. No one in our parish believed the allegation. He was found innocent but you know what? His name is ruined, he will never be the same.

This is super sad stuff. How many of these priests have been wrongly accused? I admit that there are probably some allegations that are true because human nature tells me that we are sinners and capable of this stuff and no priest is any less human than we are. I just hate to think of the ones who are good God loving men who just don't deserve this.


We need to keep the children who have been wronged in our prayers as well as the priests who have been wronged.

We need to pray for protection of our church as a whole. We need to pray for the softening of hearts where The Church is concerned. People harbor alot of hate for us right now.

I guess that is all I have for now..


Peace everyone,

Christy

The same thing happened in my diocese with a very popular Charismatic priest who was falsely accused. He went through hell for over a year while it was being investigated. He was found to be completely innocent, but his good name had already been tarnished in the public. He left town a totally broken man. Of course, the accuser was never made public and continues his life without any repercussions.

 

[Veritas]

Forgive me.

I was in no way speaking against priestly celibacy -- I know and respect the reasons behind it.

What I was saying was two things: (1) the mandating of celibacy can attract the unscrupulous as well as the true vocations; and (2) there is a shortage of priests reported -- which to me seems likely to lead to diocesan formation directors feeling a little pressure to approve nearly anyone claiming a call, rather than discerning whether a true vocation is present. And that the shortage could be alleviated by permitting the ministry of men who did have a true vocation (as evidenced by their ordination and service as priests) but not the charism of celibacy (because they felt the call to leave the active priesthood to marry) -- which would cut a little slack for the formation directors to approve only those candidates who do demonstrate a true vocation -- like our Tim.
And I want to be clear that I do not believe that the majority of priests, with true vocations, even think of molestation -- just that bad apples slip through in any case. There would still be pedophiles -- but with the formation directors having a bit more "slack," they would much more rarely be accorded seminary and the priesthood.

I don't think priests with a true vocation and the gift of celibacy, or priests who have felt the call to marry and left the active priesthood, would ever molest -- what I was suggesting was simply that there was a way to help ensure enough priests are available while still weeding out the bad apples to the extent possible.

And I ask the forgiveness of anyone whom the poor way in which I wrote that post offended.

Polycarp,

Your theory doesn't work. The vast majority of child molestors are married men. That's a fact. Marriage does not cure a deviant nor a homosexual from being attracted to young boys. Almost all of the priests found guilty of abuse were homosexual predetors. Keep homosexuals out of the priesthood and the problem will be nearly solved. The "lavender mafia" must go.

 

[Polycarp1]

Polycarp,

Your theory doesn't work. The vast majority of child molestors are married men. That's a fact. Marriage does not cure a deviant nor a homosexual from being attracted to young boys. Almost all of the priests found guilty of abuse were homosexual predetors. Keep homosexuals out of the priesthood and the problem will be nearly solved. The "lavender mafia" must go.

That's because I don't have the theory you're attributing to me.

If I do have a theory here, it's this: the priesthood attracts, along with the fine young men who do have a valid vocation, men with less-than-honorable reasons why they are not interested in marriage. Because there has been a shortage of priests for the past X years, formation directors may not be as thorough as they ought to be in discerning a valid vocation. They need to tighten up that discernment process.

But that leaves the church with an even greater shortage of priests. That could be alleviated by men who did feel a valid call to the priesthood but were not granted the charism of celibacy, and hence left the active priesthood by the laicization process in order to marry.

Minor point: the "out" homosexuals as a group are very firm in stating that they have no interest in and are opposed to sex with boys. Homosexuals in that sense and pedophiles are two distinct groups of people.

I do feel that I am offending Catholics in this series of posts, by offering comments I thought might be helpful. Accordingly, if a Mod. would be willing to delete my posts in this thread and edit out what from others was a direct response to them, I'd be grateful. I have no wish to offend here.

 

[artnalex]

May I call on all my fellow non-Catholics to pray for:

• the children who were abused
• the healing of the emotional and spiritual scars this has left on the adults who were abused as children
• true repentance by the priests who perpetrated this abuse
• healing and closure for the Catholic Church

Thanks for that prayer request, I hope it really takes affect soon.

Let's also not forget to pray for those priests who are being falsely accused.

Without being critical of a body that I am not a part of, I cannot help but think that the requirement of priestly celibacy (which I understand the reasoning behind and am not condemning) leads to apparent vocations among those who are not interested in a married life -- and that, besides those with true vocations and the charism of celibacy, that tends to include, given our fallen nature, those whose orientation is towards children?

Accordingly, and in view of the declining number of vocations to the Catholic priesthood, I'd like to see the national council of bishops, perhaps with prodding from that national lay oversight organization, seek a dispensation from the Curia to "unlaicize" those priests who gave up their faculties in order to respond to the call to marry. As a law of the church for the Latin Rite, and not a doctrinal requirement, this dispensation would in no way harm the faith of the church, and would fill a severely felt need.

You are wrong here, IMO. Can you provide evidence that celibacy in the priesthood has caused this, and could you also provide evidence that married clergy would remedy the situation?

 

[Photini]

Polycarp,
I see what you are saying, and sounds like a good solution. But there is also a shortage of priests in the Orthodox Church, and our priests are allowed to be married. I am not sure if this is a situation primarily in the US though. There is also a lack of holy Elders. One of the Optina Elders when asked why there are no more Elders of the Church said, "because there are no more good students."