This is where we differ greatly because I don't believe that the HS is God at all.
Matthew 3:16-Matthew 4:1 said:At that moment heaven was opened and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. And a voice from heaven said, "This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased." Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert to be tempted by the devil.
Isaiah 11:2 said:The Spirit of the Lord will rest on him -- the Spirit of wisdom and of understanding, the Spirit of counsel and of power, the Spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the Lord -- and he will delight in the fear of the Lord.
Isaiah 61:1 said:The Spirit of the Sovereign Lord is on me, because the Lord has annointed me to preach good news to the poor.
Gensis 1:2 said:Now the Earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
Isaiah 48:16 said:And now the Sovereign Lord has sent me, with his Spirit.
Matthew 28:19 said:Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit
2 Corinthians 13:14 said:May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Philippians 2:1-2 said:If you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any fellowship with the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion, then make my joy complete by being like minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and purpose.
Acts 5:3-4 said:Then Peter said, Ananias, how is it that Satan has so filled your heart that you have lied to the Holy Spirit and have kept for yourself some of the money you received for the land? Didn't it belong to you before it was sold? And after it was sold, wasn't the money at your disposal? What made you think of doing such a thing? You have not lied to men but to God.
John 14:16-17 said:And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever-- the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be in you.
John 14:26 said:But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.
Psalm 104:30 said:When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth.
Colossians 1:16 said:For by his him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him.
Matthew 1:18 said:This is how the birth of Jesus Christ came about: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be with child through the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 3:17-18 said:Now the Lord is the Spirit and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we, who with unvield faces reflect the Lord's glory, are being transformed into is likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.
1 Corinthians 6:19 said:Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit?
1Corinthians 3:16 said:Don't you know that you yourselves are God's temple and God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 1:13 said:Is Christ divided? Was Paul crucified for you? Were you baptized into the name of Paul?
Thank you TanteBelle for posting your option. I have to admit I have kind of a problem with quotesSorry for the disconfort.
Anyway after reading your post, I guess we just have to agree to disagree. It is nice to hear your option, but we clearly have very different option about it, but hey that is okay. We will see in time who of us is right.
Wow. There are some opinions in here that just blow my mind. I don't know how much you've gone in depth to research everything you've been saying TanteBelle, but I will definitely have to say I disagree with you heavily on what you say. I know that I will probably not be able to convince you with what I am about to say, but I will share it anyways.
The first thing I want to comment on is your claim that Christians call the Torah a curse. There is not a single christian I have ever met that would even dream of calling it a curse. That is a very false claim. We declare the it the word of God. Saying that we believe we are not under the old covenant established between Abraham and his descendants is nowhere near the same as saying that the Torah is a curse. We believe that God in the gift of his son established with us a new covenant because much of the old covenant no longer needed to be applied to us. It was full filled with the perfect sacrifice of Christ. Also, it would be a great sin to say that the Torah was a curse. How could we as Christians claim we believe the word of God is Holy and that he is a good and just God if we then declare half of our Holy Book to be a curse. I don't know where you got your information that Christians consider it a curse, but I can assure that at least among the vast majority of Christians, none of us would ever dream of calling it a curse.
Secondly I want to address the comments you made about Muslims. Being a follower of the laws of the Torah, I am sure that you are well aware that God gave many examples of when to punish breaking his law with death. Many of those same examples are the exact same things honor killings are performed for. If anything in that, they are much closer to following Old Testament law than we are. Have you actually studied Islam and their Holy Books? I have. I have a copy of the Koran on my bookshelf along with a few Bibles, books on Buddahism, Hinduism, and several other religious books. I think you should study other religious books before you pass judgement on a whole religion based on the actions of the extreme factions of a religion. I'm not saying that everything you mention is extreme, but there are parts of it that definitely is practiced only by extremists.
I am curious, can you show these scriptures that show the Holy Spirit is not God? I'll be happy to show what I have found in the Bible that shows the Holy Spirit as God.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator, the I Am who spoke to Moses and the Prophets? Do you believe that He has all authority in heaven and on earth? Why do I ask, because you don't believe in the triune God so there are problems with who you actually think Jesus is then.The sacrifices obviously because we know that Yeshua is the perfect Lamb.
Follow that to Romans 8:2 "For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death." The righteousness of the law was fulfilled by Christ for us.'For we know that the torah is spiritual, but I am carnal sold under sin!'
"Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, says the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."Jer. 31:31-33God said, 'My covenants will I not break nor alter the thing that goes out of My lips!'
We are justified by faith not by works of the Law. Paul is speaking of the law of love which Jesus gave: "Love God with all your heart ... Love your neighbor ..." All commandments fall under these.Paul says elsewhere, 'For not the hearers of the torah are just before God but the DOERS OF THE TORAH SHALL BE JUSTIFIED.' Paul describes torah as the 'perfect law of liberty'.
Just by reading your posts, I can tell you love God ... you are after His heart.I wanted to be called a woman after God's heart as David was a man after His heart!
Just simply love eachother. By doing this is loving God.How do you follow the rules of an unseen God whom you can't have a one on one conversation with? You can't touch Him? You can't see Him? How do you do that? God had an answer; torah.
Do you believe that Jesus is the Creator, the I Am who spoke to Moses and the Prophets? Do you believe that He has all authority in heaven and on earth? Why do I ask, because you don't believe in the triune God so there are problems with who you actually think Jesus is then.
Follow that to Romans 8:2 "For the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of sin and death." The righteousness of the law was fulfilled by Christ for us.
Behold, the days come, says the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband to them, says the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, says the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people."Jer. 31:31-33
It is no longer a law written on tablets, it is written in our hearts.
We are justified by faith not by works of the Law. Paul is speaking of the law of love which Jesus gave: "Love God with all your heart ... Love your neighbor ..." All commandments fall under these.
Bondage? Trying to keep 613 laws I'd say was bondage.
Just by reading your posts, I can tell you love God ... you are after His heart.
Just simply love eachother. By doing this is loving God.
You could actually keep the commandments: don't commit adultery, don't murder, don't lie, don't steal, don't covet, by ignoring and not communicating with all your neighbors. Would that be loving your neighbor or even helping them in any way? Christ criticized the Pharisees for not obeying the weightier laws of forgiveness and mercy and loving your neighbor. Keeping 256 Sabbath laws would prevent you from helping anyone on the Sabbath, since it was considered work. Jesus healed a man on the Sabbath and said He was the LORD of the Sabbath!
Very simply, the purpose of the Law was to show us what sin is. Without the Law there is no sin. By Grace, the Law of sin and death is abolished with the death of Christ.(Eph.2:15) By Grace we are saved, not by works of the law!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
i dont keep either, i am a rebel muahaha
Verses that present the triune God:Matt.3;16, 17; 1Pet. 1:2, 3:18; 1 John 5:6, 7; Eph. 2:18Absolutely, I believe all that! But that still doesn't account for the trinity doctrine.
Verses validating the distinct person of the Holy Spirit as being fully God: John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; Acts 1:8; Rom. 5:5; Gal. 5:22; Rom. 26, 27; Acts 1:16; 2Peter 1:21; Eph 4:30; Mark 3:29; 1Cor. 2:13; John 16:14, 15.
These verses confirm that we are the temple of "the Holy Spirit who teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us." (from Hell ... If I Know", pg.47) It's clear that the Father sent us another helper. So there you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 persons = one God.
The Law is spiritual. But it is not the law of the spirit. It is the law of the flesh and so we have a dual nature, the flesh waring against the spirit. Where you get confused is that this law has a spiritual effect on the flesh. Messianic Jews tend to hold onto the Law and therefore are sometimes legalistic in there understanding.The torah is spiritual, remember? So, the torah is the law of the spirit of life!
[In the book of Acts, some of the Pharisees who weren't quite on board with the Gospel program insisted on circumcision of Gentile converts, one of their laws. Peter said, "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?... since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law' - to whom we gave no such commandment" Acts 15:10, 24] (Hell ... If I Know, pg.77)
The Apostles taught Christ crucified and grace through faith. The Pharisees accused them of teaching contrary to the Mosaic Law -- because they did! Paul did not spread legalism to the Gentiles. They just used the Law and the Prophets as a witness to validate who Jesus was - the Messiah.
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."Rom. 3:20 And of course the wages of sin is death, hence the law of sin and death.The law of sin and death, what is that?
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." 2Cor.3:14, 1528 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
So, read and follow the Law and the veil is over your heart. Look to Christ and walk by the Spirit and the veil is lifted.
All believers in Christ. First the Jew then the Gentile.Okay, first off, who was the NC made to?
In the OT, God dwelt in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies. Now the Spirit of God dwells in us and we have personal access to God. The Spirit guides us and counsels us, not the Torah. You seem to be locked into stating the TORAH is your guide. Words ... rules ... that you can't keep. If you try to keep them you will be judged by them. As Jesus said, all commandments fall under the two He gave us.Okay, what is new about putting the torah on our hearts?
James says, 'Faith without works is dead!'
True, but the Holy Spirit is the one preparing and doing the works through you. Don't mistake the works in this passage as meaning "keeping the Law." The fruit of the Spirit is ove, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
'Except YOUR RIGHTEOUSNESS exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharasees, you shall in NO WISE ENTER THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN!' Yeshua said that! Our righteousness? What's that?
He made this statement when He was still under the Old Covenant Law. He hadn't finished the task of fulfilling the Law of bringing in the NC yet. He was making a point that no one could by their own righteousness enter into the kingdom. In other words, no one can keep the law and enter. Righteousness, later realized, could only be imputed through faith in Christ. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ONLY THAT ALLOWS US ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM. Btw, Jesus said the Pharisees were going to Gehenna!
Verses that present the triune God:Matt.3;16, 17; 1Pet. 1:2, 3:18; 1 John 5:6, 7; Eph. 2:18
Verses validating the distinct person of the Holy Spirit as being fully God: John 14:16, 17, 26; 15:26; Acts 1:8; Rom. 5:5; Gal. 5:22; Rom. 26, 27; Acts 1:16; 2Peter 1:21; Eph 4:30; Mark 3:29; 1Cor. 2:13; John 16:14, 15.
These verses confirm that we are the temple of "the Holy Spirit who teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us." (from Hell ... If I Know", pg.47) It's clear that the Father sent us another helper. So there you have Father, Son and Holy Spirit, 3 persons = one God.
The Law is spiritual. But it is not the law of the spirit. It is the law of the flesh and so we have a dual nature, the flesh waring against the spirit. Where you get confused is that this law has a spiritual effect on the flesh. Messianic Jews tend to hold onto the Law and therefore are sometimes legalistic in there understanding.
[In the book of Acts, some of the Pharisees who weren't quite on board with the Gospel program insisted on circumcision of Gentile converts, one of their laws. Peter said, "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?... since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, saying, 'You must be circumcised and keep the law' - to whom we gave no such commandment" Acts 15:10, 24] (Hell ... If I Know, pg.77)
So, in essense, what you are saying is that Moses was anti-Messiah!? Yeshua Himself said that Moses wrote of Him! So, to say that Messiah was against torah is to say that Moses was anti-Messiah, which is false. Paul most certainly did preach legalism to the Gentiles because he was preaching that which was legal!The Apostles taught Christ crucified and grace through faith. The Pharisees accused them of teaching contrary to the Mosaic Law -- because they did! Paul did not spread legalism to the Gentiles. They just used the Law and the Prophets as a witness to validate who Jesus was - the Messiah.
"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."Rom. 3:20 And of course the wages of sin is death, hence the law of sin and death.
"But their minds were blinded: for until this day remains the same veil untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament; which veil is done away in Christ. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their heart." 2Cor.3:14, 15
So, read and follow the Law and the veil is over your heart. Look to Christ and walk by the Spirit and the veil is lifted.
All believers in Christ. First the Jew then the Gentile.
In the OT, God dwelt in the Temple, in the Holy of Holies. Now the Spirit of God dwells in us and we have personal access to God. The Spirit guides us and counsels us, not the Torah. You seem to be locked into stating the TORAH is your guide. Words ... rules ... that you can't keep. If you try to keep them you will be judged by them. As Jesus said, all commandments fall under the two He gave us.
True, but the Holy Spirit is the one preparing and doing the works through you. Don't mistake the works in this passage as meaning "keeping the Law." The fruit of the Spirit is ove, joy, peace, patience, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, temperance.
He made this statement when He was still under the Old Covenant Law. He hadn't finished the task of fulfilling the Law of bringing in the NC yet. He was making a point that no one could by their own righteousness enter into the kingdom. In other words, no one can keep the law and enter. Righteousness, later realized, could only be imputed through faith in Christ. It is HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS ONLY THAT ALLOWS US ENTRANCE INTO THE KINGDOM. Btw, Jesus said the Pharisees were going to Gehenna!
I have to ask...does this thread take a break on the Sabbath?
TanteBelle,
You want so very badly to hold onto the TORAH. You are very defensive about it and I'm not inclined to take it away from you. I think I've said all I can without committing myself to writing a book for you. God Bless you sister.
I would love to someday scuba dive in the Great Barrier Reef. It must be nice. That movie Australia is one of my favorites too.
I'll leave you with one more scripture: "Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under the schoolmaster." Gal. 3:24, 25 Schoolmaster can be translated as pedagogue or babysitter. Time to graduate sister.
Those passages merely mention the HS; they don't say that the HS is God and nowhere in all of scripture does it say that the HS is God.
The Holy Spirit is not a force. He is a person Whom the Father sends to live in the believer of Christ. If He has all the abilities of God: omniscience, omnipresence and omnipotence and has all the qualities of God, then He is God. If He is not, then who do you think is living in this temple, some angel? Angels do not have these abilities or qualities. Again "He teaches, guides, counsels, leads, gives all truth, hears, speaks, is all powerful, searches all truth which means He has all knowledge, is omnipresent since billions are comforted by Him, bears witness to Christ and glorifies Him, is all wise, gives gifts, baptizes us, makes promises, loves us, fellowships with us, sanctifies us , justifies us, convicts us of sin and edifies us."
God lives in the temple (of the Christian) which btw is a spiritual design of the OT Temple.
Have you been baptised by the Holy Spirit? If you do not ask for the HS and don't believe that He is God, then He may not take residence in you and that would explain much. Blaspheming the Holy Spirit is considered the unforgivable sin. I'm not saying you are doing this but saying that He is not God and not acknowledging Him is getting close. The Jehovah Witnesses think He is a force and therefore are in the dark. When they preach, they completely misrepresent Christ and misinterpret scriptures on a regular basis.
As one gets filled with the Holy Spirit, he is able to walk in the Spirit of God. He is the Spirit of the Father and the Spirit of Christ.
"For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word (Jesus), and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one." 1 John 5:7
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