The Sabbath is the 'Lords Day', not Sunday.

Presbyterian Charismatic said:

If you want to know about how Jesus has become our Sabbath rest, why not actually read the Book of Hebrews in the Bible? Not some selected verses, but the whole book. Let the Holy Spirit instruct you through the written Word.

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I have studied Hebrews 3 and 4 which are connected very closely and there is not one verse that says Jesus became the creation i.e. Sabbath day, Sabbath rest or a commandment. Jesus is the Creator of all things, not the creation. If this teaching was true, one could easily point to the verse instead of saying read Hebrews, its there some.... where....

But we do have God's clear Word that can't be altered, which Hebrews 4:4, 9,10 points to.

Exo 20:10 but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God

If one truly believed the blood of Christ ratified His covenant, that could not be changed after His death- It Is Finished one would not be teaching this false narrative that Jesus is our Sabbath and our time on the seventh day is ours and no longer God's holy time. Its certainly not what the apostles taught they kept every Sabbath and taught to keep the commandments long after the Cross as they were commissioned by Jesus to observe everything He commanded. Mat 28:18-20

God's law can't be edited Psa 89:34 Deut 4:2 Mat 5:18 and its seems very prideful to believe we can alter something God wrote with His own finger. Heaven and Earth would pass before that happened, heaven and earth are still here, therefore so is God's Authoritative Law, the way He wrote it.

Presbyterian Charismatic said:

If you want to know about how Jesus has become our Sabbath rest, why not actually read the Book of Hebrews in the Bible? Not some selected verses, but the whole book. Let the Holy Spirit instruct you through the written Word.

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I m familiar with Hebrews and I find nothing in Hebrews that says Jesus is our Sabbath. How does a human being replace a day He said to keep holy.

Presbyterian Charismatic said:

What's that got to do with the LXX referring to mother of the Messiah being a virgin rather than just a young woman as some interpret the Hebrew?

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I'll bite. What does it have to do with it?

Reasonably Sane said:

I'll bite. What does it have to do with it?

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I can't remember exactly why I included the reference to the LXX. That's the challenge of old age.

reddogs said:

Can you give us the text were God says the Sabbath and the worship are 'meaningless and without profit'.

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Google where it says that people observe days, months, etc.

reddogs said:

Can you give us the text were God says the Sabbath and the worship are 'meaningless and without profit'.

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The Sabbath command given at Sinai was for the Israelites to remember and dwell on their release from Egypt by God and to remember creation and who it was that created. It was not a day to assemble and worship.

Bob S said:

The Sabbath command given at Sinai was for the Israelites to remember and dwell on their release from Egypt by God and to remember creation and who it was that created. It was not a day to assemble and worship.

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Jesus said this to His disciples

Mat 28: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Which is why the apostles kept every Sabbath -from the example of Jesus and what He commanded- after the Cross-that's a lot of Sabbaths 30 years later- obviously not just for the Israelites.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of [c]exhortation for the people, say on.”

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

The disciples observed every Sabbath until the end of their life decades after the Cross- certainly not what man teaches- but we were warned Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

God kept the Sabbath, Jesus kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, His faithful followers kept the Sabbath- If God's Word is how He speaks to us and going outside of it we are warned is danger Isa 8:20 the choice is obvious if one wants to follow God's Word as we are made in His image to follow Him, not to do our own thing.

reddogs said:

It was important to God, so should it be important to us..
Genesis 2:2
And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.

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Are you able to explain why SDAs believe Adam Eve also participated with God as He rested? Are you also able to explain why you believe God rested every succeeding seventh-day and so did everyone else?

Why would it be important to "us" when He only gave the Sabbath command to one nation? Most of the remainder of the World's population had no knowledge of Israel's Sabbath law.

If the Sabbath command is written on the heart, why is it that all mankind are not ceasing daily activities to remember creation and remember the Israelites flight out of Egypt? The United States celebrates the fourth of July as the day we became an independent Nation. Why would any other nation feel the need to celebrate the fourth with us?

Bob S said:

The Sabbath command given at Sinai was for the Israelites to remember and dwell on their release from Egypt by God and to remember creation and who it was that created. It was not a day to assemble and worship.

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For the Israelites. as a group, to remember their deliverance from Egypt, which is symbolic of deliverance from sin, and to remember their Creator is not an act of worship?

You have some very odd ideas of what it means to worship God.

Bob S said:

Why would it be important to "us" when He only gave the Sabbath command to one nation? Most of the remainder of the World's population had no knowledge of Israel's Sabbath law.

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It would be important to those joining Yisrael. Your argument holds no water because even the first great commandment is spoken and written to Yisrael, the very first words being, "Hear, O Yisrael", Dt 6:4, which is quoted by Meshiah in Mrk 12:29. Moreover even the new-renewed covenant is only said to be made with the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah, Jer 31:31, which is quoted in Heb 8:8. Moreover Paul even teaches the grafting in of the Gentiles into the olive tree of the all Yisrael of the Father in Rom 11, and that whole passage refers right back to its origin in Jer 11:16-17, where the passage tells us that the same olive tree concerns the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah. Moreover Paul teaches these things also in Eph 2:11-13

Bob S said:

If the Sabbath command is written on the heart, why is it that all mankind are not ceasing daily activities to remember creation and remember the Israelites flight out of Egypt?

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Just goes to show that the common misperception of those words is just that: a common misperception. We do not get the credit for doing what we are admonished or commanded to do in the scripture, rather, Elohim gets the credit because if He had not told us what was good for us we would be lost. Therefore we study out of love to know our Creator and His will, and His Word is written on our hearts as we do this, but no study means no Word of Elohim written on the heart, for we did not love and therefore do not deserve anything, (and even though we do love, we still do not deserve anything). Who is the real legalist here? You pick apart the scripture like a true lawyer in order to excuse yourself from anything you wish not to do or partake in: where is the love for Elohim in that?

Bob S said:

The United States celebrates the fourth of July as the day we became an independent Nation. Why would any other nation feel the need to celebrate the fourth with us?

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Those who immigrate (legally) into the United States have decided to join our great country, and they are generally proud to join the nation and become part of our nation, and they should be, and generally are, proud to celebrate the day of our national independence with us.

Thus, again, your argument holds no water: see Eph 2:11-13, where Paul surely intends that the Gentiles are joining the all Yisrael of the Father through His Meshiah whom He sent, and who purchased us all with his own blood, bringing the Gentiles into the one fold of Yisrael, and the commonwealth of the whole nation in Meshiah. I hope you are not one of those who looks at that like some sort of replacement theology: the olive tree belongs to the Father, the Planter, and the Root is Meshiah who supports the whole tree, and therefore the Father may add, (graft in), as many branches to His tree as He so desires, even until His mighty olive tree fills the whole world.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said this to His disciples

Mat 28: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Which is why the apostles kept every Sabbath -from the example of Jesus and what He commanded- after the Cross-that's a lot of Sabbaths 30 years later- obviously not just for the Israelites.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of [c]exhortation for the people, say on.”

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

The disciples observed every Sabbath until the end of their life decades after the Cross- certainly not what man teaches- but we were warned Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

God kept the Sabbath, Jesus kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, His faithful followers kept the Sabbath- If God's Word is how He speaks to us and going outside of it we are warned is danger Isa 8:20 the choice is obvious if one wants to follow God's Word as we are made in His image to follow Him, not to do our own thing.

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Paul instructed that the observances of special days, new moons, etc., were weak observances and no longer applicable to Christian believers. Seeing that Paul wrote according to how God commanded, his instructions are the commands of Christ, so therefore Christ has commanded Christian believers not to observe special days, including the Jewish Sabbath, but to worship God in spirit and in truth.

Presbyterian Charismatic said:

Paul instructed that the observances of special days, new moons, etc., were weak observances and no longer applicable to Christian believers. Seeing that Paul wrote according to how God commanded, his instructions are the commands of Christ, so therefore Christ has commanded Christian believers not to observe special days, including the Jewish Sabbath, but to worship God in spirit and in truth.

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And yet the apostles were keeping every Sabbath decades after the Cross, so obviously that verse from Paul that we are told he is hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16 wasn't referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment, since they were commended to observe everything, Jesus commanded- and they observed every Sabbath.

Which is why in Galatians does not mention the Sabbath commandment. Adding what is not there and making a doctrine out of it, is never wise, imho.

SabbathBlessings said:

And yet the apostles were keeping every Sabbath decades after the Cross, so obviously that verse from Paul that we are told he is hard to understand 2 Peter 3:16 wasn't referring to the weekly Sabbath commandment, since they were commended to observe everything, Jesus commanded- and they observed every Sabbath.

Which is why in Galatians does not mention the Sabbath commandment. Adding what is not there and making a doctrine out of it, is never wise, imho.

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The record shows that Paul was the only one who went into the synagogue in each city of the Sabbath. He went there to preach the Gospel of Christ to them, not to engage in Jewish worship along with them. The believers in Jerusalem went to the Temple for the same reason, and the only day they could do that was on the one non-working day of the week which was Saturday. When they met together for fellowship and worship, they met on the first day of the week, which was Sunday. It is important to read what Luke actually said in Acts, rather than what you would like him to have said.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said this to His disciples

Mat 28: 18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. 19 Go [c]therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” [d]Amen.

Which is why the apostles kept every Sabbath -from the example of Jesus and what He commanded- after the Cross-that's a lot of Sabbaths 30 years later- obviously not just for the Israelites.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Acts 13:14 But when they departed from Perga, they came to Antioch in Pisidia, and went into the synagogue on the Sabbath day and sat down. 15 And after the reading of the Law and the Prophets, the rulers of the synagogue sent to them, saying, “Men and brethren, if you have any word of [c]exhortation for the people, say on.”

Acts 13:42 So when the Jews went out of the synagogue, the Gentiles begged that these words might be preached to them the next Sabbath.

Acts 13:44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God.

Acts 15:21 For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.”

Acts 16:13And on the Sabbath day we went out of the city to the riverside, where prayer was customarily made; and we sat down and spoke to the women who met there.

Acts 17:2 Then Paul, as his custom was, went in to them, and for three Sabbaths reasoned with them from the Scriptures,

Acts 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and persuaded both Jews and Greeks.

The disciples observed every Sabbath until the end of their life decades after the Cross- certainly not what man teaches- but we were warned Acts 20:29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

God kept the Sabbath, Jesus kept the Sabbath, the apostles kept the Sabbath, His faithful followers kept the Sabbath- If God's Word is how He speaks to us and going outside of it we are warned is danger Isa 8:20 the choice is obvious if one wants to follow God's Word as we are made in His image to follow Him, not to do our own thing.

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Hi SB, All of your scripture has not proven my statement wrong. the commands given in Deuteronomy 5 tell the Israelite nation to rest and remember. We are not privy as to how the change came about, but it surely did. If you remember in Ex 16:29 all were to rest in their place on the Sabbath. There is no account of God changing this rule, but after a while they were up and wandering about. God didn't chastise them and Jesus didn't remain in His place on the Holy day, so at some point God must have changed the rule and allowed them to move about. Scripture is mute on the change.

Presbyterian Charismatic said:

The record shows that Paul was the only one who went into the synagogue in each city of the Sabbath. He went there to preach the Gospel of Christ to them, not to engage in Jewish worship along with them. The believers in Jerusalem went to the Temple for the same reason, and the only day they could do that was on the one non-working day of the week which was Saturday. When they met together for fellowship and worship, they met on the first day of the week, which was Sunday. It is important to read what Luke actually said in Acts, rather than what you would like him to have said.

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Right. Paul's work here was evangelism and not sabbath keeping. Paul was preaching the gospel to Jews and Greeks (proselytes). They believed in the Jewish system, but the Bible says in Acts 14:1, that they BECAME believers proving Paul's work there was evangelism and not sabbath worship.

The Greeks were Jewish converts to Judaism known as proselytes. They practiced the law of Moses and kept the sabbath. The only Greeks that were in the synagogue would be these proselytes. These Greeks needed to convert to Christianity. Acts 13:43 "Now when the meeting of the synagogue had broken up, many of the Jews and of the God-fearing proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, were urging them to continue in the grace of God."

Acts 13:43 - Now when the congregation had broken up, many of the Jews and devout proselytes followed Paul and Barnabas, who, speaking to them, persuaded them to continue in the grace of God. 44 On the next Sabbath almost the whole city came together to hear the word of God. 45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy; and contradicting and blaspheming, they opposed the things spoken by Paul. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas grew bold and said, "It was necessary that the word of God should be spoken to you first; but since you reject it, and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, behold, we turn to the Gentiles.

Acts 14:1 - "In Iconium they entered the synagogue of the Jews together, and spoke in such a manner that a large number of people believed, both of Jews and of Greeks."

Acts 17:4 - "And some of them were persuaded and joined Paul and Silas, along with a large number of the God-fearing Greeks and a number of the leading women.

Acts 18:4 - "And he was reasoning in the synagogue every Sabbath and trying to persuade Jews and Greeks."

Bob S said:

Hi SB, All of your scripture has not proven my statement wrong. the commands given in Deuteronomy 5 tell the Israelite nation to rest and remember. We are not privy as to how the change came about, but it surely did. If you remember in Ex 16:29 all were to rest in their place on the Sabbath. There is no account of God changing this rule, but after a while they were up and wandering about. God didn't chastise them and Jesus didn't remain in His place on the Holy day, so at some point God must have changed the rule and allowed them to move about. Scripture is mute on the change.

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True no account that the Sabbath rest changed- kept after the Cross according to the commandment by God’s faithful Luke 23:56 which is why the apostles kept every Sabbath as scriptures reveals teaching both Jews and Gentiles God’s Word on the Sabbath. God’s people keep God’s commandments, His version, not what was changed by man.

daq said:

It would be important to those joining Yisrael. Your argument holds no water because even the first great commandment is spoken and written to Yisrael, the very first words being, "Hear, O Yisrael", Dt 6:4, which is quoted by Meshiah in Mrk 12:29. Moreover even the new-renewed covenant is only said to be made with the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah, Jer 31:31, which is quoted in Heb 8:8. Moreover Paul even teaches the grafting in of the Gentiles into the olive tree of the all Yisrael of the Father in Rom 11, and that whole passage refers right back to its origin in Jer 11:16-17, where the passage tells us that the same olive tree concerns the house of Yisrael and the house of Yhudah. Moreover Paul teaches these things also in Eph 2:11-13

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All you have done is beat around the bush. I assume it is your assumption that Gentiles are grafted into Israel. Israel was never a life giver. Only God gives life. When we accept Jesus as our Savior we are grafted into Him, the giver and sustainer of life. Jesus is the author of the new and better covenant. The old way was done away.

The question still remains. If the Sabbath was so important why didn't God reveal it to all mankind when it was given to Israel?

daq said:

Just goes to show that the common misperception of those words is just that: a common misperception. We do not get the credit for doing what we are admonished or commanded to do in the scripture, rather, Elohim gets the credit because if He had not told us what was good for us we would be lost. Therefore we study out of love to know our Creator and His will, and His Word is written on our hearts as we do this, but no study means no Word of Elohim written on the heart, for we did not love and therefore do not deserve anything, (and even though we do love, we still do not deserve anything). Who is the real legalist here? You pick apart the scripture like a true lawyer in order to excuse yourself from anything you wish not to do or partake in: where is the love for Elohim in that?

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Oy! Has anyone including myself indicated that you are a legalist? Accusing me of being one because I disagree with your premises that somehow we are under the dictates of "some" of the old covenant laws is very poor judgment and a poor debating tactic. All I have done is to prove no one is subject to the laws given only to Israel at Sinai. I believe scripture is telling us those laws ended at Calvary and that we are under the laws of the new and better covenant.

Galatians 3:10
For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law.”

1 Corinthians 9:20
To the Jews I became like a Jew, to win the Jews. To those under the law I became like one under the law (though I myself am not under the law), so as to win those under the law.

Acts 13:39
Through him everyone who believes is set free from every sin, a justification you were not able to obtain under the law of Moses.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.

Romans 6:15
What then? Shall we sin because we are not under the law but under grace? By no means!

daq said:

Those who immigrate (legally) into the United States have decided to join our great country, and they are generally proud to join the nation and become part of our nation, and they should be, and generally are, proud to celebrate the day of our national independence with us.

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I agree, but that was not the point I was trying to get across to you. Why would any other nation feel the need to celebrate the fourth with us? Why should I feel the need to celebrate a day to remember Israel's flight out of Egypt? The same for all the feast days.

daq said:

Thus, again, your argument holds no water: see Eph 2:11-13, where Paul surely intends that the Gentiles are joining the all Yisrael of the Father through His Meshiah whom He sent, and who purchased us all with his own blood, bringing the Gentiles into the one fold of Yisrael, and the commonwealth of the whole nation in Meshiah. I hope you are not one of those who looks at that like some sort of replacement theology: the olive tree belongs to the Father, the Planter, and the Root is Meshiah who supports the whole tree, and therefore the Father may add, (graft in), as many branches to His tree as He so desires, even until His mighty olive tree fills the whole world.

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I do not believe Paul was indicating Gentiles should become Jews. Why did you stop at verse 13 when the next two verses make it very clear that Jesus ended the Law with its commandments in order to make the two groups one. Why would anyone choose to become like a group of people who deny that Jesus is the Son of God?

SabbathBlessings said:

True no account that the Sabbath rest changed- kept after the Cross according to the commandment by God’s faithful Luke 23:56 which is why the apostles kept every Sabbath as scriptures reveals teaching both Jews and Gentiles God’s Word on the Sabbath. God’s people keep God’s commandments, His version, not what was changed by man.

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Wrong SB, Read Col 2 without your Ellen glasses on and you will find in that chapter that indeed Paul stated that the Sabbath was a shadow and Jesus is our reality. In Gal 3:19 Paul tells us that the Law ended. 19 Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come.