The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

Thekla · Sep 24, 2011

heymikey80 said:
My same response here. Just because someone thinks their view of a Church Father (or, put to extremes, Jesus, or an Apostle) is right, that doesn't make it right. Attributing to someone a viewpoint they don't have -- well, Christians are notorious for doing this, and there are numerous examples even in "interpreting" contemporary scholars.

Of all the places where fallibility is obvious, this is one that is most clear to me. I've no reason to take the viewpoint of another fallible Christian "on faith".

Let God be true, and every man a liar. "In God we trust -- all others pay cash."

Have you read much of these two authors ?

For example, the argument of many RCs is that - based on selective quotation - John the Chrysostom agreed with the supremacy of the bishop of Rome. However, if one reads beyond these selected quotations (both in text and in other writings), one finds that the apparently conclusive nature of these quotes is undermined . If one further considers his life, the support falls away altogether.

This fact is harder to understand if one's faith is entirely text-based.

heymikey80 · Sep 24, 2011

Thekla said:
Christianity is not a collection of texts, it is a way of life - "the Way".

In order to understand more fully the texts, one must consider also what is done.

Note that the Gospels include not only teachings, but also actions - which in fact interpret the teachings.

And they are all words.

Words describe the territory. Words are not the territory, but they do indeed describe the territory.

So in seeking out an explanation of the territory, the words of the Church Fathers -- renowned for their teaching abilities -- would be the most obvious source. Not allusions to "what is done", but words, the more reliable the better, about what the Church Father did, preferably based on what he wrote, thereby explaining his own practice.

Thekla · Sep 24, 2011

heymikey80 said:
And they are all words.

Words describe the territory. Words are not the territory, but they do indeed describe the territory.

So in seeking out an explanation of the territory, the words of the Church Fathers -- renowned for their teaching abilities -- would be the most obvious source. Not allusions to "what is done", but words, the more reliable the better, about what the Church Father did, preferably based on what he wrote, thereby explaining his own practice.

"... not in word but in power (dynamis) [1 Cor] ... " says St. Paul, the "... power energized (energia) in us [Eph]..."

heymikey80 · Sep 24, 2011

Thekla said:
Have you read much of these two authors ?

I think the question would be more to the point -- have you? If so, is there something specific that you can quote, or are you simply implying your view onto theirs?

If the latter, then how is what you're doing different from the argument of "so many RC's"?

To learn from the fathers, we must first allow them to be themselves, and not our impression of them.

Thekla said:
This fact is harder to understand if one's faith is entirely text-based.

That's not the case. Accounting for practice is a relatively straightforward Biblical-Historical interpretive method.

I believe I've asked a number of times for the counterargument about Cyril and Gregory. If there's nothing that stands against it, the quotes stand, being what they said.

heymikey80 · Sep 24, 2011

Thekla said:
"... not in word but in power (dynamis) [1 Cor] ... " says St. Paul, the "... power energized (energia) in us [Eph]..."

What'd Paul use to say that?

Words.

Once again, words describe the territory. QED.

Communicate something to me without words. I'll communicate something to you by my words.

The Apostles knew how to communicate the doctrine of Christ. They did so. Scripture represents it.

"And we impart this in words not taught by human wisdom but taught by the Spirit, interpreting spiritual truths to those who are spiritual." [1 Cor]

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

Philothei said:
Why call it Sola Scripturat then if in reality it is not completely accurate though Just saying here.

Because scripture is the sole authority by which all else is measured against. It is the bar. All else is compared to the bar.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2011

Hentenza said:
Because scripture is the sole authority by which all else is measured against. It is the bar. All else is compared to the bar.

I think I will have to agree with you here Henry

http://www.christianforums.com/t7246132/
Scripture as my measure

Blue Letter Bible - Search Results for KJV
"measure"
occurs 69 times in 62 verses in the KJV

Blue Letter Bible - Lexicon
Strong's Number G3354 matches the Greek μετρέω (metreō), which occurs 10 times in 9 verses in the Greek concordance

Reve 21:15 And he who is speaking with me had a golden reed, that he may measure the city, and its gates, and its wall;
16 and the city lieth square, and the length of it is as great as the breadth; and he did measure the city with the reed--furlongs twelve thousand; the length, and the breadth, and the height, of it are equal;
17 and he measured its wall, an hundred forty-four cubits, the measure of man, that is, of the messenger;

Ephesian 3:17 To dwell the Christ thru the Faith in the hearts of ye in Love, having been rooted and having been founded,
18 That ye should be being strong to be grasping/apprehending together to all the Saints what the breadth and length and height and depth ,
19 To know the transcending of the knowledge love of the Christ , that ye may be being filled into all filling of the God [Reve 21:15]

Fotina · Sep 24, 2011

Hentenza said:
Because scripture is the sole authority by which all else is measured against. It is the bar. All else is compared to the bar.

Jesus Christ is the measure of all things not the text about Him. SS confuses the two.

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

All churches are composed of men. All men are errant, therefore, men can err and have erred.

Scripture is God's special revelation inspired by the Holy Spirit which is the third Godhead. God is inerrant and infallible, therefore, the scriptures are inerrant and infallible and can not err.

Since scripture is the only special revelation from an infallible God then it follows that it is the only infallible authority.

Anyone here care to posit how the product of men can have equal authority to the product of God?

And, yes, all believers with saving faith are indwelled by the Holy Spirit.

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
Jesus Christ is the measure of all things not the text about it. SS confuses the two.

Actually it is the churches that confuse the two, hence, the different variations of interpretation and practice. There is no error in scripture but there is much error in the churches including yours and mine.

heymikey80 · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
Jesus Christ is the measure of all things not the text about it. SS confuses the two.

"Jesus Christ alone" sounds good to me. It just doesn't sound like something the Apostolic Successionist church would agree with. Rather, it sounds like another of the Five Solas.

"This is My Beloved Son. Listen to Him."

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2011

heymikey80 said:
"Jesus Christ alone" sounds good to me. It just doesn't sound like something the Apostolic Successionist church would agree with. Rather, it sounds like another of the Five Solas.

"This is My Beloved Son. Listen to Him."

Like the old EF Hutton commercials

Scripture4All - Greek/Hebrew interlinear Bible software

Matthew 17:5 Still of-Him speaking, behold! a luminous cloud over-shadows them.
And behold! a Voice out of the cloud saying "this is the Son of Me, the beloved, in whom I delight, be ye hearing Him!".
[Deut 18/Acts 3:22/Revelation 2:18]

Revelation 2:18 And to the messenger of the Outcalled in Thyatira write! Now this is saying the Son of the God, the One having the eyes of Him as flame of fire, and the feet of Him as to burnished-brass.

80's EF Hutton Commercial - YouTube

Fotina · Sep 24, 2011

Hentenza said:
Anyone here care to posit how the product of men can have equal authority to the product of God?

Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, gives us the Church, the mystical "Body of Christ," the Head of which is Christ Himself (see Eph. 1:22-23 and Col. 1:18, 24 et seq.)

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
Jesus Christ, God Incarnate, gives us the Church, the mystical "Body of Christ," the Head of which is Christ Himself (see Eph. 1:22-23 and Col. 1:18, 24 et seq.)

Which church did He give us? Yours? RC? OO? Baptist? Methodist? Presbyterian? Anglican? Other?

Do they not all claim to have Jesus as its Head?

Fotina · Sep 24, 2011

heymikey80 said:
"Jesus Christ alone" sounds good to me. It just doesn't sound like something the Apostolic Successionist church would agree with. Rather, it sounds like another of the Five Solas.

"This is My Beloved Son. Listen to Him."

No, EO do not have Five Solas. We have ONE Head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
No, EO do not have Five Solas. We have ONE Head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

lol That IS one of the solas (Solus Christus). Do you believe that we are saved only by the grace of God?

Fotina · Sep 24, 2011

Hentenza said:
Which church did He give us? Yours? RC? OO? Baptist? Methodist? Presbyterian? Anglican? Other?

Ask Christ.

LittleLambofJesus · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
No, EO do not have Five Solas. We have ONE Head of the Church, Jesus Christ.

Sounds like my kind of Church

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

Fotina said:
Ask Christ.

Wait. You are making a positive statement in your previous posts which means that you are stating a premise. Are you now saying that all that do not belong to your church have not asked Christ but all that belong to your church have asked Christ?

Hentenza · Sep 24, 2011

LittleLambofJesus said:
Sounds like my kind of Church

And mine.

The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

Thekla

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Thekla

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Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Quidquid Latine dictum sit, altum viditur

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Regular Member

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Regular Member

I will fear no evil for You are with me

Regular Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

I will fear no evil for You are with me

I will fear no evil for You are with me

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