The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

GQ Chris · Mar 27, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Perhaps we trust not in the men themselves, but the men we believe to be working by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is, God. Did the Israelites not have to trust Moses? Does the New Testament not contain information regarding bishops?

Only in so far as what these Holy Spirit led Men are doing in accordance with what Scripture teaches.

ivebeenshown · Mar 27, 2011

GQ Chris said:
Only in so far as what these Holy Spirit led Men are doing in accordance with what Scripture teaches.

Great, because I believe that the doctrine of the Church I am part of is entirely in accordance with the Holy Scriptures.

GQ Chris · Mar 27, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Great, because I believe that the doctrine of the Church I am part of is entirely in accordance with the Holy Scriptures.

I don't believe the Roman Catholic church preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

GQ Chris · Mar 27, 2011

I grew up Roman Catholic.

ivebeenshown · Mar 27, 2011

GQ Chris said:
I don't believe the Roman Catholic church preaches the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Aw. Well, I do.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."

GQ Chris said:
I grew up Roman Catholic.

I grew up Protestant.

GQ Chris · Mar 27, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
I grew up Protestant.

What denomination?

Ortho_Cat · Mar 27, 2011

GQ Chris said:
I'm merely summarizing what you confirm, Scripture is less important than trusting mere men.

Rather, i trust their collective interpretation of scripture more than I trust my own.

Ortho_Cat · Mar 27, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Aw. Well, I do.

"Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you... that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures..."I grew up Protestant.

Same here bro.

ivebeenshown · Mar 27, 2011

GQ Chris said:
What denomination?

Well at one point Baptist, and at another point it was just 'generic elderly small congregation unofficially Baptist', but then at another point it was 'somewhat charismatic yet conservative/traditional'. Oh and then there was the 'rock band Celebration' church, and the Methodist church my grandma goes to.

sunlover1 · Mar 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Perhaps we trust not in the men themselves, but the men we believe to be working by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is, God.

Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

Did the Israelites not have to trust Moses?

But now we have God IN us.
And was moses infallible?
IN fact, he messed up pretty big and caused
some of them to really miss the boat...

Does the New Testament not contain information regarding bishops?

Bishops, kings, priests..
With Jesus as the King OF the kings
and the Lord OF the lords.

Ortho_Cat · Mar 28, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

But now we have God IN us.
And was moses infallible?
IN fact, he messed up pretty big and caused
some of them to really miss the boat...

Bishops, kings, priests..
With Jesus as the King OF the kings
and the Lord OF the lords.

Paul did stress obedience to our spiritual elders though...

ivebeenshown · Mar 28, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

Quick, someone tell Paul.....

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Thekla · Mar 28, 2011

sunlover1 said:
Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

Others of God, in the way God willed, are not middle-men.

There are some whose heart is closer to God than ours at any given point, and those whose heart is perhaps less close - they are both direct gifts to us from God. There are many gifts, and all those bearing the numerous gifts given by God is not surfeit but needed.

God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; to live in God is to live in communion with others.

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
I believe that the doctrine of the Church I am part of is entirely in accordance with the Holy Scriptures.

1. Wonderful! Of course, it's entirely moot from the Catholic perspective - but I'm glad to hear you think that. Did you regard what you were taught as potentially wrong, did you norm those teachings to the rule of Scripture and then personally arbitrate that the 2,875 points of the Catholic Catechism are all "in accordance with" Scripture? Or are you just saying that cuz it seems nice to say?

2. The Mormon would say exactly the same thing (and it's not moot there). The Calvinist would say the same thing (and it's essential there).

3. So, does it matter if it's true or not? Do you care - at all - if what is presented as Christian doctrine is true? Or does the only thing that matters is "quiet, docilic submission" to a denomination that mandates such to self alone?

.

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Perhaps we trust not in the men themselves, but the men we believe to be working by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is, God.

I see....

When a Mormon gives his teachers a "Pass" on accountability and just embraces whatever such presents with "quiet, docilic submission as unto God" (as the RCC would put it), does that rubric to you suggest that ergo the teaching is correct or does it just indicate that it doesn't matter if it's true? Do you believe that that process (giving the teacher a "pass" on the issue of correctness) the best way to determine correctness?

.

sunlover1 · Mar 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
Perhaps we trust not in the men themselves, but the men we believe to be working by the power of the Holy Spirit, that is, God.

sunlover1 said:
Why not just skip the middleman? Jesus came and made it so we can
go directly to God now.

But now we have God IN us.
And was moses infallible?
IN fact, he messed up pretty big and caused
some of them to really miss the boat...

Bishops, kings, priests..
With Jesus as the King OF the kings
and the Lord OF the lords.

ivebeenshown said:
Quick, someone tell Paul.....

1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

But paul didn't say that a bishop was to do your interpreting of God's words for you.
In fact, nowhere is such a thing implied. Because that's not how God
operates. Past or present, He'd never leave YOUR salvation in another
man's hands. And there IS Life in the Word of God... and I know that
you already know that.

ortho_cat said:
Paul did stress obedience to our spiritual elders though...

Amen brother ortho.

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 28, 2011

ivebeenshown said:
1 Timothy 3:1
This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

Thank you...

If someone desires the office of president of the USA,he desires a good work, too. Wouldn't you agree? Now, how does seeking a good office make that one infallible, unaccountable, incapable of wrong teaching, whatever self says God says? Do you believe that because President Obama sought (and attained) the Office of President, ergo he is infallible and exempt from accountability?

I volunteered to be the High School Sunday School teacher (the former teacher moved away). I was appointed to the office. Does that make me exempt from accountability for what I teach and do in the class? IF it did, I would not have accepted the position...

But you continue to contribute a very important point. Read the last point in the opening post, "Why Some So Passionately Reject the Rule of Scripture?" You continue to provide confirmation of that point.

.

Rdr Iakovos · Mar 28, 2011

CaliforniaJosiah said:
Your denomination did not determine what is or is not Scripture (except for itself exclusively at the Council of Trent in the 16th century). The Israelites did not need the RCC to tell them that the Ten Commandments are Scripture./snip

But they did require concilliar action of the Rabbis at Yamnia/Yavneh to determine what was and what was not.

CaliforniaJosiah · Mar 28, 2011

Rdr Iakovos said:
But they did require concilliar action of the Rabbis at Yamnia/Yavneh to determine what was and what was not.

1. How did they tell the Hebrews that the Ten Commandments were Scripture?

2. How did the RCC or EO or OO or LDS tell them? What role did any of those have in such (recall: the whole point was Scripture is known as such because of the RCC)?

3. As you well know, what books are or are not regarded as Scripture at that point is not a teaching of Sola Scriptura - and thus not a part of the thread here. Embracing Scripture as the rule was the Rule of Scripture just as much in 1400 BC when Scripture consisted of nothing more than two stone tablets. But since this is 2011 AD and not 1400 BC, that point is not only moot for this discussion but pretty moot for any other thread or topic, too.

4. The issue here is accountability - whether it matters to you (at all) if what is presented as Christian doctrine is true or not. IF you think it does, you have embraced accountability for Christian doctrines, you have embraced norming (the process of evaluating correctness/validity/truth) and you need to join with others in this process in embracing a sound rule/norma normans for this. IF you have an alternative rule that is MORE inspired by God, MORE inerrant, MORE reliable, MORE objectively knowable by all and alterable by none, MORE ecumenically (say by 50,000 denominations) and MORE historically (say to 1400 BC) embraced than is Scripture - please present it.

Thank you!

Pax

- Josiah

.

Philothei · Mar 28, 2011

sunlover1 said:
But paul didn't say that a bishop was to do your interpreting of God's words for you.
In fact, nowhere is such a thing implied. Because that's not how God
operates. Past or present, He'd never leave YOUR salvation in another
man's hands. And there IS Life in the Word of God... and I know that
you already know that.

Amen brother ortho.

Paul said to go to the Elders We already said that Sun

and if we have conflict (that in many cases we do ) we need to go to the elders it is not "anti-scripture" to do so

The Rule of Scripture ("Sola Scriptura" as Luther and Calvin called it)

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