The "Rite" Question?

[jukesk9]

In the Catholic Church, there are different rites, ie the Latin (Western) Rite, the Eastern Rite (which uses the Divine Liturgy), Coptic Rite, Chaldean Rite, etc.  Does the Orthodox Church have different rites?  Like what is the difference between the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, etc.?  Also, can a Greek Orthodox recieve Communion in say a Coptic Orthodox?

 

[Gideon4God]

Today at 05:39 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #1

In the Catholic Church, there are different rites, ie the Latin (Western) Rite, the Eastern Rite (which uses the Divine Liturgy), Coptic Rite, Chaldean Rite, etc.  Does the Orthodox Church have different rites?  Like what is the difference between the Greek Orthodox Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, etc.?  Also, can a Greek Orthodox recieve Communion in say a Coptic Orthodox?

Good question. 

To my limited understanding of the Faith their is only one liturgy that is widely used amoung Eastern Orthodox, the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos. 

The Coptic Church uses the Divine Liturgy of St. James. 

Latins had, before the council of Trent a couple of different liturgy it was only after the council one became standard.  I assume the same could be said about the Eastern Orthodox as well, but I have only seen the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostomos.  If I'm not mistaken the Byzantine Rite of the Latin Church uses a more Latin verison of it.  Their are no "rites."   

 

 

Also, can a Greek Orthodox recieve Communion in say a Coptic Orthodox?

 

No.  But a Greek may recieve Holy Communion from a Russian Orthodox or any other Orthodox in Communion with their Bishop.  The Coptic Church has been on it's own since 451 ad.  CopticOrthodox help me out here....

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Actually the Coptic Churches uses the Liturgy of St. Basil normally, traditionally the Liturgy of St. Cyril (a modification of the Liturgy of St. Mark, our first Pope) during Lent, and the Liturgy of St. Gregory for the Major Feasts (Nativity, Epiphany, Ressurection). The British Orthodox Church which is under the Coptic Patriarchate uses the Liturgy of St. James.

There are two Orthodox Communions, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. Greeks and Russians are examples of the Eastern Orthodox, and can receive Communion at each other's Churches. At my Church Copts, Armenians, Ethiopians, and Eritirans all worship and receive the Sacraments together (These are all Oriental Orthodox Churches).

Each Church uses a specific Liturgy or Liturgies with their own tunes for historical reasons. Some of the Liturgies are unique to one Church, and some are shared by several.

This is the way Christianity was at the start, each local Church making their own ritual dicisions, but sharing the faith, and Communion, with the rest of the Church. The idea of one worldwide Church with their own set of rituals applied universally, and one language applied accross the whole world was foreign to the early Church.

When popular Catholic theology taught that only those who bow to the Pope or Rome will be saved (this is still an infallible doctrine), they sent out missionaries to convert the Orthodox. They allowed the converts to keep their Liturgies, so they Catholic Church came to have more than one rite. Today they have 7, the Latin or Western rite, and 6 Eastern rites including the Byzantium rite and the Coptic rite among others. However, they're trying to get away from this image of swallowing up the Orthodox in to themselves to help relations with the Orthodox Church, focusing now on dialog rather than going after individual converts, so they're moving away from the idea of different rites, to the idea of different independent Churches in Communion. So officially the Catholic Church is today made up of 22 independed Churches, with each Church using one of the 7 rites.

 

[isshinwhat]

When popular Catholic theology taught that only those who bow to the Pope or Rome will be saved (this is still an infallible doctrine)

This is not the place to talk about this, but I suggest you PM Wols to discuss this, as it is not a Catholic belief, nor has it ever been officially promulgated.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[dignitized]

what's fun is that there are Latin Rite Orthodox its a two way street - people cross both ways. There is also Anglican Rite Orthodox as well.

 

[dignitized]

QUESTION: do you mean Rite as in Liturgy forms or RITE as in Traditions?

 

[isshinwhat]

The various Liturgical Traditions amaze me, as the theologies of each group are so tied into them... beautiful... It's like going to Thanksgiving at your brother's home after he has started his family. Some things are different, others are the same, but it's still Thanksgiving.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[Gideon4God]

Today at 07:23 PM Br. Max said this in Post #5

what's fun is that there are Latin Rite Orthodox its a two way street - people cross both ways. There is also Anglican Rite Orthodox as well.

As for "Latin Rite Orthodox"   or any other rite they are only ritually like the Orthodox Church they left.  They are Latin catholics and should be seen as such for the head of their church is the Pope in Rome. 

PS:  I love the little smilies.

 

[CopticOrthodox]

It's an acknowledged historical fact that the popular belief of the Catholic Church at the time was that only those that bow to the Pope of Rome could be saved, and that's what motivated the missionary work to convert the Orthodox.  This is not disputed by Catholic scholars, it's not controversial.

 

Today at 02:22 PM isshinwhat said this in Post #4



This is not the place to talk about this, but I suggest you PM Wols to discuss this, as it is not a Catholic belief, nor has it ever been officially promulgated.

God Bless,

Neal

 

[brewmama]

I don't know about Latin Rite Orthodox, but we do have a western rite. It is the liturgy of St. Tikhon, and is approved in the Antiochian Archdiocese. There is also an approved Gregorian liturgy. I realize that there are some out in the Orthodox world that disapprove of the rite but we are in a canonical Church. I love it, it's based on the old anglican-celtic rites, but if it was not allowed I would have no problem with the Eastern Rites. I read in one of the links here that the Antiochian Patriarchate is considered very "modern or liberal", perhaps due to their use of the Western Rite. This was from some Old Calendarists. Oh well, whatever.

 

[jukesk9]

Today at 01:24 PM Br. Max said this in Post #6

QUESTION: do you mean Rite as in Liturgy forms or RITE as in Traditions?

Well I thought the two went hand in hand.  For example, in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, priests can marry. 

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Just to make sure this is clear, Eastern priests (Catholic or Orthodox) cannot marry.  Married men can be priests, but a priest can never become a married men.

Today at 05:49 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #11




Well I thought the two went hand in hand.  For example, in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, priests can marry. 

 

[nyj]

Today at 04:49 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #11

Well I thought the two went hand in hand.  For example, in the Eastern Rite Catholic churches, priests can marry. 

A man who is to become a priest must marry first before being ordained. If he is ordained first, he must accept a vow of celibacy. Likewise, if his wife dies, he cannot remarry.

Second, men in the Eastern Rite Catholic Church within the United States, who are awaiting ordination, must accept the vow of celibacy like their Latin Rite counterparts. They may not marry ( trust me, I looked into it ). If they come from outside of the United States (ie: typically of Eastern European descent) they may be married prior to their ordination, as per the local custom.

 

[Gideon4God]

Today at 09:54 PM brewmama said this in Post #10

I don't know about Latin Rite Orthodox, but we do have a western rite. It is the liturgy of St. Tikhon, and is approved in the Antiochian Archdiocese. There is also an approved Gregorian liturgy. I realize that there are some out in the Orthodox world that disapprove of the rite but we are in a canonical Church. I love it, it's based on the old anglican-celtic rites, but if it was not allowed I would have no problem with the Eastern Rites. I read in one of the links here that the Antiochian Patriarchate is considered very "modern or liberal", perhaps due to their use of the Western Rite. This was from some Old Calendarists. Oh well, whatever.

I like the Sarum Liturgy (at least what I have read) but the Liturgy of St. Tikhon is based on the Book of Common Prayer which has it's roots in the Sarum Mass.  As for the Western Rite it will only be a rite until a Westerner is made Bishop over that rite then it becomes Western Orthodox.    

 

[jukesk9]

So what's keeping the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches separated?

 

[Gideon4God]

Today at 02:50 PM jukesk9 said this in Post #15

So what's keeping the Oriental Orthodox Churches and the Eastern Orthodox Churches separated?

The Oriental Churches do not accept any Conculs after 451.     I think they do believe in them they just haven't accept them formally...yet. 

 

[CopticOrthodox]

We hold the same faith now, if there was ever a time when we did not. We don't see any need to accept the other 4 councils, which mostly dealt with local matters. For example, why do we need to consider a council which we did not attend eccumenical, which ruled against the iconoclast heracy when we never had any problem with that heracy to be in need of a council to put it down? We have the same faith, so why do we need to worry about councils that happened a long time ago? No new aspects of the faith were understood for the first time there, the faith of the Church doesn't change. The 1st council was called when the emperor was upset about the fighting between the Orthodox and the Arians. So the matter was discussed, and the herecy was put down. We received the creed from that council, which is very beneficial, but the faith wasn't changed at that council, it was only defended. So why do we need to worry about councils that happened a long time ago in another part of the world over issues that never affected us?

Pope Shenouda offered to lift the anathamas between us, if the Greek Orthodox Patriarch would do the same. This would not achieve unity or Communion, but it would be an important first step in the right direction. Unfortunatly, the Greek Patriarch was forced to regretfully decline, as his people would have rebelled against him. They've been raised to consder us heterodox. The Church has been telling them for a long time that we are not Orthodox, and for them to turn around and say something different would cause chaos. When the anathamas were lifted between the Greeks and the Catholics, there was schism and thier primary monastary left Communion with their Patriarch (or something like that, I don't know the details). We and the EO are much closer than the Catholics, and yet for some reson there seems to be much more hate towards us. This is just a cultural thing, and not a matter of faith, but it is a main hurdle preventing us now.

There's a lot more openness and breaking away from old mindsets today, so maybe in a generation or two this hate that is separating us will have died away, and we'll finally be able to lift the anathamas.

One EO Church asked Pope Shenouda for full Communion between us, but Pope Shenouda had to decline, since that would only lead to more alienation between us and the Greek Church, which is in some sense in charg of the others (I'm not sure exactly how, but I know the Greek Patriarch is the first among equals somehow).

Currently, if an EO comes to communion at our Churches, and they are properly disposed, the priest will usually communicate them, with silent approval from the bishops. This is hypocrasy, there are anathamas between us, but there aren't many options until it becomes possible for the anathamas to be lifted. If one day the anathamas are lifted, it would make stuff like this more legitimate, and allow closer cooperation and less scandal, but there would still be some issues that could be a hinderance to full Communion.

For example, The Eastern Orthodox allow marriage to any Christian group, while the Oriental Orthodox only allow marriage within Orthodoxy. At present, if a Copt and a Greek wish to marry, there are provisions for this between the two Churches. But if a Copt wishes to marry a Protestant, they cannot go to a Greek Church to get this done. If we were to have full Commuion, they would be able to do this, and there would be nothing we could do about it. So until the rules about marriage can be agreed upon between the two Churches, full Communion would be difficult at best.

Right now the thing to work towards is putting an end to the unchristian hatred between us, improving relations, and hopefully eventually lifting the anathamas. The next step to take after that is something we don't need to worry about until we get there, there are enough worries for today.

 

[jukesk9]

Today at 03:59 PM CopticOrthodox said this in Post #17

For example, The Eastern Orthodox allow marriage to any Christian group, while the Oriental Orthodox only allow marriage within Orthodoxy. At present, if a Copt and a Greek wish to marry, there are provisions for this between the two Churches. But if a Copt wishes to marry a Protestant, they cannot go to a Greek Church to get this done. If we were to have full Commuion, they would be able to do this, and there would be nothing we could do about it. So until the rules about marriage can be agreed upon between the two Churches, full Communion would be difficult at best. 

That's similar to the Catholic position in regards to a Catholic marrying a Protestant.  I married my wife at her Methodist Church and therefore I wasn't allowed to partake of Holy Communion until our marriage was blessed by the Catholic Church, which it later was (and she converted to Catholicism). 



 

 

[CopticOrthodox]

Actually by the current rules of the Catholic Church you could have gotten permission from your bishop and the Catholic Church would have recognized your wedding without needing to get it blessed afterwards. But depending on how long ago it was that may not have been the case.

Oriental Orthodoxy allows marriage within Orthodoxy
Eastern Orthodoxy allows marriage within Christianity
Catholicism allows marriage to anyone.

 

[mtown]

I found this topic a bit confusing and by the end completely off of what the initial post was about. But I wanted to reply because I found somethings need clarification.

When referring to the "rite" used in the Orthodox Church, it is based on Tradition. There are two "Rites" of Divine Liturgy recognized in the Orthodox Church. (When I refer to Orthodox Church, I am referring to those Orthodox Churches that have accepted the 7 Ecumenical Councils)

The first "rite" it is not an referred to as a "Eastern Rite", but called "Byzantine Rite". This is the services developed, including the Divine Liturgy and the other Sacraments were developed within the Byzantine Empire. These services are used by almost all Orthodox Churches, Greek, Russian, Antiochian, OCA...etc.

The second rite, is a more recently development, sometimes referred to a "Western Rite" or "Latin Rite." This is services that were used by Western Churches when the Churches of Constantinople and Rome were still in communion. The Church of Constantinople recognized fully the Liturgy used by the Latin Churches. But recently thanks to the works of St. Tihkon of Moscow and St. Raphael of Brooklyn, the Latin Rite liturgy is now celebrated in it's orginal form by Churches that refer to themselves as "Western Orthodox Churches" For more information about this you can visit and read up about it on www.oca.org


The second point I wanted to make is the last comment by CopticOrthodox. The Orthodox Church does not allow you to marry any Christian. For the Sacrament to take place, both members must be members of the Orthodox Church. Final! If initially one member came from a Church outside the Orthodox Church, they must first be welcomed into the Church through Chrismation and maybe even Baptism. No Orthodox priest will marry some in their parish if they are not both Orthodox Christians.