The reprobates and the Spirit

[pro_odeh]

Can someone who is not one of the elect be filled with the Holy Spirit?

As I've understood it, it's only the elect that can be renewed by the Spirit, and none of the elect will perish. Jesus himself says:
"All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. 40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." (Joh 6,37-40)

But in some places in scripture it's implied that a person can have the Spirit, but then not be saved...

1)
"For as touching those who were once enlightened and tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the age to come, 6 and [then] fell away, it is impossible to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame." (Hebrews 6,4-6)

Here it's said that there are some made partakers of the Holy Spirit, that fall away. And that they can not renew them again unto repentance, meaning that they will perish...

2)
Solomon was a great man of God, but at the end of his life he turned away from God:

"And the LORD was angry with Solomon, because his heart was turned from the LORD God of Israel, which had appeared unto him twice, 10 And had commanded him concerning this thing, that he should not go after other gods: but he kept not that which the LORD commanded." (1 Kings 11,9-10)

And later on he dies without any mention of repentance (1 Kings 11:40-43). And as far as I know, the common opinion is that Solomon was not saved, meaning that he was not one of the elect.

But then you have a problem. Because Solomon was a man after Gods heart. And He even wrote parts of the Bible. And Paul tells us that "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim 3,16). So the writers of the Scripture had to be inspired by the Holy Spirit, meaning that Solomon was that too. So how does this fit together?


I'm sure there are other examples that could be brought out, but you get my point...
How does the reprobates, the Holy Spirit and the renewing of the mind fit together, when there are examples of people being renewed, but still perishing?

Thanks for any reply!

God bless!!

 

[bulldogs10]

I would think not

 

[James1979]

2Sa 12:24 And David comforted Bathsheba his wife, and went in unto her, and lay with her: and she bare a son, and he called his name Solomon: and the LORD loved him.

I believed that Solomon was a child of God. I'm not sure why God allowed Solomon to go after other gods but he did. There are scriptures in the bible where it shows that Solomon loved the Lord walking in the statues of his father David (1Kings 3:3)

 

[Imblessed]

I dont' think the Hebrew 6:4-6 verse is saying that they were indwelled with the Holy Spirit. By partaking of it, I think it means they were "on the inside" so to speak, close to christians, acting christian-like and being right there to actually "see" the affects of christianity, and reaping the benefits of being in a christian invironment. Because they were "that close" and still didn't "get it", they are actually worse off than a person who was never around it. Does that make sense?

It's my understanding that God can punish a person unto death without them losing their salvation. Maybe that's what happened in Solomon's case. I would think that maybe Solomon was still saved....but I can't say for sure. I know common belief goes both ways....

 

[heymikey80]

Can someone who is not one of the elect be filled with the Holy Spirit?
* * *
How does the reprobates, the Holy Spirit and the renewing of the mind fit together, when there are examples of people being renewed, but still perishing?

Thanks for any reply!

God bless!!

Yes, someone can be filled with the Holy Spirit in particular ways and yet be reprobate.

Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied. When Jesus gave the disciples the ability to work miracles and cast out unclean spirits by the Holy Spirit, that didn't conspicuously exclude Judas Iscariot.

And Baalam's donkey -- I don't think I'll meet the donkey in heaven -- although, who knows? Baalam would be another reasonable example.

So how could this be? Well, it has to do with the kind of relationship the Spirit initiates with the person. The Spirit can indeed form a relationship with people that doesn't save them. He's not limited in this way.

Being filled with the Spirit in these sorts of ways is not the same as rebirth or renewal by the Spirit (cf. Jn 3). One involves the Spirit doing things through a person; the other is a thorough re-creation (2 Cor 5:17).

Scripture does say the Spirit is given to those who believe. But it doesn't say the contrary, that the Spirit is withheld from all those who disbelieve.

 

[Dolly]

I get confused (more-so disappointed) about this sort of thing. The prospect that one of the most beloved Bible characters went to hell. Perhaps God used Solomon early in his life for God's glory and later on Solomon fell away - well obviously. But God knows all things, past, present & future. Whether or not Solomon was saved, it's God's call.

 

[Harlan Norris]

It seems to me that a persons salvation should be uppermost in their heart.So, that they will not jebordise it with spates of non belief,that come from pride.Solomon was proud,and had begun to believe that he was actually wise on his own,without God.When we find our faith and accept Christ as our savior,we say we will live according to the gospel.But if we forget that this life is just a short trial,we will leave the straight and narrow path and worship false gods.We will place our trust in things that cannot save us.The parable of the sower is a good example.Jesus gave four examples of believers.Out of those, only one type kept the faith.I would have to assume that only they were saved.

 

[rnmomof7]

Take some time to read the OT.

What you will find is that the Holy Spirit was ON people not IN them. (there is one exception in that the artisan that designed the tabernacle was in dwelt for his work)

That is a huge distinction.

The Holy Spirit did not indwell men until Pentecost . Look who He in dwelt. It was the apostles, the disciples and Mary all elect believers.

Jesus asked this question.

Does one put new wine in old wineskins? I believe that was directed at the indwelling Holy Spirit

Mar 2:19 And Jesus said unto them, Can the children of the bridechamber fast, while the bridegroom is with them? as long as they have the bridegroom with them, they cannot fast.


Mar 2:20 But the days will come, when the bridegroom shall be taken away from them, and then shall they fast in those days.


Mar 2:21 No man also seweth a piece of new cloth on an old garment: else the new piece that filled it up taketh away from the old, and the rent is made worse.


Mar 2:22 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles: else the new wine doth burst the bottles, and the wine is spilled, and the bottles will be marred: but new wine must be put into new bottles.

 

[rnmomof7]

Yes, someone can be filled with the Holy Spirit in particular ways and yet be reprobate.

Saul was filled with the Holy Spirit and prophesied.

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand

Notice it was an EVIL spirit sent from God that was ON him not IN him

Also note that the Spirit of God was only ON David not In him


1Sa 16:13 Then Samuel took the horn of oil, and anointed him in the midst of his brethren: and the Spirit of the LORD came upon David from that day forward. So Samuel rose up, and went to Ramah.

When Jesus gave the disciples the ability to work miracles and cast out unclean spirits by the Holy Spirit, that didn't conspicuously exclude Judas Iscariot.

No doubt that Judas also preformed miracles in the name of Christ, there is no notation in scripture that ever says he was indwelt with the holy Spirit or that it was even ON him. The miracles were in the NAME of Christ and under HIS authority and power

And Baalam's donkey -- I don't think I'll meet the donkey in heaven -- although, who knows? Baalam would be another reasonable example.

So how could this be? Well, it has to do with the kind of relationship the Spirit initiates with the person. The Spirit can indeed form a relationship with people that doesn't save them. He's not limited in this way.

God will send the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit On someone to preform a task, but the Holy Spirit does not indwell a reprobate or a donkey

Being filled with the Spirit in these sorts of ways is not the same as rebirth or renewal by the Spirit (cf. Jn 3). One involves the Spirit doing things through a person; the other is a thorough re-creation (2 Cor 5:17).

Scripture does say the Spirit is given to those who believe. But it doesn't say the contrary, that the Spirit is withheld from all those who disbelieve.

We can not build doctrines on silence of the scripture. That said I would argue that Scripture points to the fact that the Holy Spirits work is to convict men of sins and lead them to truth, that does not happen to reprobates EVER

 

[heymikey80]

1Sa 18:10 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the evil spirit from God came upon Saul, and he prophesied in the midst of the house: and David played with his hand, as at other times: and [there was] a javelin in Saul's hand

Notice it was an EVIL spirit sent from God that was ON him not IN him

Also note that the Spirit of God was only ON David not In him

Well, I meant:

When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” 1 Sam 10:10-11
​

No doubt that Judas also preformed miracles in the name of Christ, there is no notation in scripture that ever says he was indwelt with the holy Spirit or that it was even ON him. The miracles were in the NAME of Christ and under HIS authority and power
God will send the Holy Spirit or an evil spirit On someone to preform a task, but the Holy Spirit does not indwell a reprobate or a donkey

You can accept that if you wish (and if Saul is saved), but there're plenty of cases where people do miraculous things through the Spirit of God, and yet they're not saved people.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Mt 7:22-23
​

We can not build doctrines on silence of the scripture. That said I would argue that Scripture points to the fact that the Holy Spirits work is to convict men of sins and lead them to truth, that does not happen to reprobates EVER

But there are specific questions here that Scripture does make statements about:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
​

There is a special sense in which the Spirit is sealed to a believer (Ep 1:13). But if we try to extend that to a conclusion about who the Spirit might partner with or allow to partake from Him, that conclusion gets very tough. I think the Spirit of God is free to move and work in whoever He wishes, however He wishes. And I think the Scripture bears that out enough to show the Spirit of God doing whatever and however He pleases.

 

[rnmomof7]

Well, I meant:

When they came there to the hill, there was a group of prophets to meet him; then the Spirit of God came upon him, and he prophesied among them. And it happened, when all who knew him formerly saw that he indeed prophesied among the prophets, that the people said to one another, “What is this that has come upon the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?” 1 Sam 10:10-11
​

You can accept that if you wish (and if Saul is saved), but there're plenty of cases where people do miraculous things through the Spirit of God, and yet they're not saved people.

Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ Mt 7:22-23
​

Can you understand the difference between ON AND IN ?

But there are specific questions here that Scripture does make statements about:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame. Heb 6:4-6
​

There is a special sense in which the Spirit is sealed to a believer (Ep 1:13). But if we try to extend that to a conclusion about who the Spirit might partner with or allow to partake from Him, that conclusion gets very tough. I think the Spirit of God is free to move and work in whoever He wishes, however He wishes. And I think the Scripture bears that out enough to show the Spirit of God doing whatever and however He pleases.

[/quote]

Please show me ANY SCRIPTURE other than the one exception that says the Holy Spirit was IN a reprobate or a yet unsaved man .

 

[pro_odeh]

Thanks for your answers guys! I'm sorry, I've been away for some while, and haven't been able to partake as much as I'd like to.

Please show me ANY SCRIPTURE other than the one exception that says the Holy Spirit was IN a reprobate or a yet unsaved man .

I don't know of any other scripture, but at least there is one. And I don't know of any that says the contrary... If you know of any, please share! that would make things more clear (hopefully).

Is it your belif then that The Holy Spirit can work on reprobates, but not in them?


God bless!!

 

[bradfordl]

Is it your belif then that The Holy Spirit can work on reprobates, but not in them?

I don't know about on, in, under, or around, but obviously He's doing something to them by restraining the evil they are capable of committing.

 

[Rick Otto]

Momof7 is right, but more of an explanation might help ya.
I grabbed this out of a commentary by John Gill:

"...it is better therefore to retain the word "enlightened", in its proper sense, and to understand it of persons enlightened with Gospel knowledge; there are some who are savingly enlightened by the Spirit of God, to see the impurity of their hearts and actions, and their impotency to perform that which is good, the imperfection of their own righteousness to justify them, their lost state and condition by nature, and to see Christ and salvation by him, and their interest in it; and these being "once" enlightened, never become darkness, or ever so fall as to perish; for if God had a mind to destroy them, he would never have shown them these things, and therefore cannot be the persons designed here;..."

I'm often 'enlightened' when I 'partake' of his verse-by-verse work on the NT. Matthew Henry's OT & NT commentaries are available too.
You can find them online at an excellent resource site called "crosswalk"

http://bible.crosswalk.com/Commentaries/GillsExpositionoftheBible/gil.cgi?book=heb&chapter=006&verse=004&next=005&prev=003


That's the page for that verse.
Do enjoy.

 

[heymikey80]

Is it your belief then that The Holy Spirit can work on reprobates, but not in them?

Clearly the Holy Spirit can "come upon" reprobates by examples in the Old Testament, working through them to show miraculous signs of God at work.