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Are you wanting a verse to say "God's grace varies" like a verse that says "God is a trinity?"
And, I see (again) no answers to my questions posed in Ephesians.
I'm beginning to think you're just being a troll bro.
Cool, I'll leave, but remember you've failed to prove your false "reprobate doctrine" either via the Bible, or logic, or debate and conversation, or even just common decency. Have a great time in your echo chamber. Cheers mate.Yes a verse would be useful to support your claim.
Don't start making those kind of accusations. You already left the conversation once,do it again if you feel dissatisfied.
So, an elite class were allowed in heaven before the cross?
Everyone has been atoned for. The difference is whether you have received it or not.
1 John 2:2
He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
So, you are claiming an emotional component to our salvation contract?
Every tongue will confess Jesus Christ as Lord. Even C.S. Lewis says he was dragged into the kingdom against his will. (kicking and screaming)
I don't think the emotional aspect has anything to do with it.
The same applies for forgiveness. It is a simple contractual decision. Remorse or emotion is not required.
Why is that clear to you?If you want to claim Enoch and Moses and Elijah are "an elite class of people"; you're entitled to call them what ever you want. It is clear though that they were in heaven before the cross.
The first paragraph sounds like a lot of doubletalk. I think it is a projection of your belief that only the predestined "elect" will be saved.I've explained this verse already. Someone being the payer for sin doesn't mean they've paid for all sins. It only means that of what ever sin has been paid for; they are the one who paid it.
You believe that everyone is paid for and the difference is whether or not one receives it? Yet if everyone will eventually be reconciled; whether they receive it or not is actually immaterial; which makes the proclamation of the gospel of no consequence. Which I believe more than one person on this thread has pointed that out to you.
Wow. That's an incredible statement from a Damnationist.Ya know; that's a really sadistic view of God.
Maybe you should hear me out before casting judgement.What does "emotional component to our salvation contract" mean? We're not suppose to have them? Having my sin atoned for should not have any impact on how I feel about God? Do you believe there is no relational component to salvation? So if someone in agony proclaims (because they can not deny) Jesus is Lord; that's "just as good" in God's eyes as someone who's joyful?
Ya know; that's a really sadistic view of God.
Once again, that's quite a claim for a Damnationist to make. Sadism? Really?Under your schema; God only seeks to demonstrate power to force obedience and He "gets it how ever He can". That is not a demonstration of love. That's sadism.
Once again, calling me a sociopath before hearing me out is a bit much.So if someone brutally rapes and murders your 10 year old daughter; you simply forgive him (whether he's sorry or not) because "it is a simple contractual decision"? If you really live your life this way, you are a sociopath.
Why is that clear to you?
Do you really believe that someone cannot be summoned from the realm of the dead?
Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. You seems to be saying that God so loved the "elect" that he gave his one and only Son...
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.
Wow. That's an incredible statement from a Damnationist.
You believe that God will cast those who have never even heard of Jesus into the conscious torment of the Lake of Fire for "all eternity" with no hope of escape. And then have the audacity to claim that I have a sadistic view of God? That's rich.
Emotion is fine. But God doesn't need that. He doesn't look to us to satisfy his own well-being. Fortunately.
Hopefully you are claiming that emotion is necessary to be saved. How would we measure such things? Were you emotional enough to be saved? (who knows?) Could you have been more emotional? (of course) Was there enough emotion to be saved? (who knows?)
I agree that a joyful experience or outcome is a good thing. But some don't have that. Are they NOT saved? (based on a lack of emotion)
Once again, that's quite a claim for a Damnationist to make. Sadism? Really?
Just so you know, I don't believe the fire is like what we find here on earth. The pain is more emotional than physical. There's the emotion you were hoping for. - lol (weeping and gnashing of teeth)
Once again, calling me a sociopath before hearing me out is a bit much.
Yes, the contractual aspect of forgiveness REQUIRES no emotion. In fact, in the example you give, that may be the only way to do it. How could you muster up enough emotion to do what needs to be done to forgive in this situation?
It's clear to me because Moses and Elijah stood on the Mt. of Transfiguration in bodily form. Scripture says that Elijah was taken into heaven in a chariot and that God buried Moses. So yeah, it's apparent to me that they both received resurrected bodies "ahead of the game".
If only their spirits had been summonsed from the dead; the disciples would not have been asking Jesus if they should build shelters for the 3 of them. Very clearly, Moses and Elijah were in tangible form.
Deceased human beings, where the soul and spirit have been severed from the flesh, can not manifest themselves in material form. Non-carbon based entities called angels can appear to humans in material form and pre-incarnation Christ appeared to humans in material form. (theophanies.) No where in the Scripture does it say that deceased saints appear to humans on earth in material form.
Only one place in Revelation do we see a "dis-embodied" saint appear to John in material form; but this was a vision of heaven and if John was actually physically there, there's nothing to say this deceased saint had not already received a resurrected body. This was a post resurrection event. So if John was actually physically in the New Jerusalem, he very well may have encountered people with resurrected bodies.
The Scripture does say that many bodies of the saints arose after Christ's resurrection and walked around in the holy city. That was most likely the New Jerusalem because the earthy Jerusalem (where the Messiah was crucified) was no longer "set apart".
"For God so loved the cosmos, that He gave His only begotten son..." The Greek word is "cosmos", which is what we'd translate as "universe". The creation is part of the redemption plan. It will be delivered from the curse brought upon it by mans' sin and will be recreated incorruptible. And this is why I believe John wrote "cosmos" in that verse.
Now, there's also a verse: "A decree went out from Augustus Caesar that all the world be taxed." Did Caesar tax the American Indians, or the Chinese? When does "all the world" really not mean "all the world"? The Greek word for "world" in that passage is "inhabitants of the earth".
Now under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost; John could have written: "For God so loved the inhabitants of the earth, that He gave...." But that's not what he wrote. He wrote: "For God so loved the cosmos..."
John 3:16 does not teach universal atonement.
I'm sorry, but I can not picture an incorruptible earth that contains people (alleged by you to now have been cleansed by their experience in the lake of fire) who are silenced and void of praise on account of being forced to "bow the knee".
How does forced obedience produce love? That's why I said that idea poses a sadistic view of God.
Yet apparently you don't see that; because you claim that God requiring someone to atone for their own sin is "sadistic".
Matter of fact though; the Scripture declares that the disobedient mouths are halted because they are guilty before God. Romans 3:19
This also flies in the face of what you said before about they're not being in the lake of fire because of sin, but because of unbelief. Well, is not unbelief a sin? Scripture commands men to believe; yet if one disobeys the law, that is sin. So therefore; disobeying the command to believe is sin.
So, if Christ has atoned for them; there is no grounds to send them to the lake of fire in the first place. Contrary to what a lot of people claim; unbelief is not blaspheming the Spirit of God. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the only sin that is unforgivable and that sin is very specific to time and place of witnessing Christ perform miracles in the flesh, knowing He's the Messiah and saying He does this by the power of Satan. That is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. That is the only definition of blaspheming the Holy Ghost. We can be assured that unbelief is not blaspheming the Holy Ghost, because everyone at some point or another is in a state of unbelief.
No, I do not believe this. Matter of fact; I said that one can come to redemption by the witness of creation, outside of the written revelation of Scripture and you made fun of me for saying that.
The statements I made about emotion were not in reference to any "emotional need" of God's. So, stop taking what I say out of context.
Positive emotional response toward God (i.e. love and gratitude) is a consequence of redemption. Now the degree wherewith an individual may publicly express that will vary. What you see on the outside though, does not necessarily convey to you the extent of what they feel in their heart.
Hopefully I'm saying emotion is necessary to be saved? LOL
Positive emotional response to God is like faith and obedience. It is a consequence of redemption, not a prerequisite to.
And why don't they have it?
If they believe no one is eternally lost; why would they be joyful? Salvation becomes as inevitable as death and taxes. What's there to be happy about that? LOL
What would you call one who forces obedience from another so they can delude themselves into believing they are loved? Psychology calls that sadism.
And why throw someone into the lake of fire to accomplish that? Isn't the emotional turmoil experienced on earth as a consequence of sin and living in a fallen world enough?
Go back and read more carefully what I actually wrote.
How would your belief square with passages that talk of God's wrath? If "the contractual aspect of forgiveness REQUIRES no emotion"; why does the Scripture speak of the wrath of God? According to what you're saying; in order for God to forgive, He'd have to "muster up enough emotion to do what needs to be done to forgive this situation".
The Scripture does not portray God that way though. God is described in the Scripture as anything but emotionless. Look at Jesus in Gethsemane. Do you have any idea what His agony would have looked like if you were to stand there and watch it? Have you ever seen someone have a nervous breakdown? A PTSD shell shocked panic attack? If you look closely at the Greek; you'd come to the conclusion that Jesus's experience would have looked something like the footage in this clip.
Jeremiah tells us that the wrath of God causes men to go insane.
The canon of NT scripture was not a singular writing that stopped with the book of Revelation in 95 AD. The New Testament canon was a collection of books in an approved form (27 books) that was not finalized until the Council of Carthage AD 397. Late in the fourth century.
Therefore, the NT canon could not have closed in 95 AD, as it did not exist in any form until 170 AD. Which at that time did not include Hebrews, James, 1 and 2 Peter, and 3 John.
As I said earlier, there are three doctrinal positions in reference to the final judgment. Universalism is not a new concept. It was the prevailing view in the early church, as I understand it.
Being purged is not the payment for sin, it is a consequence for not receiving the atonement. The atonement was for everyone.
It wasn't only the translation that was messed with. The vocabulary and lexicon definitions were meddled with as well. In some cases looking up the meaning of the Greek leads to a biased definition. Augustine made sure of this, as I understand it.
It's actually good news.
From a humorous perspective, we'll all get tired of sitting on clouds strumming harps. We'll be ready for something new. More ages will follow. Rather than one continuous endless age. As I understand it.
Sorry. As inspiring as the Springtime is, there is no gospel message in it. At least not to those who have never heard the gospel. To what would they respond? A flower, a bird, warm sunshine? To do what?
So you agree that those without the law in Rom.2:14-15 are saved? Progress.
What about the basis for salvation in Matt.25 ???
Those under the earth that confess Jesus as Lord are believers when they do. And not before.
I have been in the Universalist camp for only a few months. It was only a matter of weeks before I could see MAJOR problems with Damnationism. Especially what it claims about our loving Father.
I would rather be a Universalist and be wrong than a Damnationist and be wrong.
Do we disagree on the basic points of the faith? (I don't think so)
Now this is an interesting discussion. Thanks for the detailed response. We differ on several points.It's clear to me because Moses and Elijah stood on the Mt. of Transfiguration in bodily form. Scripture says that Elijah was taken into heaven in a chariot and that God buried Moses. So yeah, it's apparent to me that they both received resurrected bodies "ahead of the game".
If only their spirits had been summonsed from the dead; the disciples would not have been asking Jesus if they should build shelters for the 3 of them. Very clearly, Moses and Elijah were in tangible form.
Deceased human beings, where the soul and spirit have been severed from the flesh, can not manifest themselves in material form. Non-carbon based entities called angels can appear to humans in material form and pre-incarnation Christ appeared to humans in material form. (theophanies.) No where in the Scripture does it say that deceased saints appear to humans on earth in material form.
Only one place in Revelation do we see a "dis-embodied" saint appear to John in material form; but this was a vision of heaven and if John was actually physically there, there's nothing to say this deceased saint had not already received a resurrected body. This was a post resurrection event. So if John was actually physically in the New Jerusalem, he very well may have encountered people with resurrected bodies.
The Scripture does say that many bodies of the saints arose after Christ's resurrection and walked around in the holy city. That was most likely the New Jerusalem because the earthy Jerusalem (where the Messiah was crucified) was no longer "set apart".
I think what you have present is indeed a Universalist apologetic. Jesus dying to redeem the entire Universe. It doesn't get much more universal than that. Wow. I'm stunned."For God so loved the cosmos, that He gave His only begotten son..." The Greek word is "cosmos", which is what we'd translate as "universe". The creation is part of the redemption plan. It will be delivered from the curse brought upon it by mans' sin and will be recreated incorruptible. And this is why I believe John wrote "cosmos" in that verse.
Now, there's also a verse: "A decree went out from Augustus Caesar that all the world be taxed." Did Caesar tax the American Indians, or the Chinese? When does "all the world" really not mean "all the world"? The Greek word for "world" in that passage is "inhabitants of the earth".
Now under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost; John could have written: "For God so loved the inhabitants of the earth, that He gave...." But that's not what he wrote. He wrote: "For God so loved the cosmos..."
John 3:16 does not teach universal atonement.
It seems that we are in agreement on the point that a person cannot atone for their own sin. To this you conclude that they will burn forever with no hope of escape in the vain attempt to pay for their own sins. But it sure seems that they are paying for their own sin. Paying dearly.I'm sorry, but I can not picture an incorruptible earth that contains people (alleged by you to now have been cleansed by their experience in the lake of fire) who are silenced and void of praise on account of being forced to "bow the knee".
How does forced obedience produce love? That's why I said that idea poses a sadistic view of God.
Yet apparently you don't see that; because you claim that God requiring someone to atone for their own sin is "sadistic".
Matter of fact though; the Scripture declares that the disobedient mouths are halted because they are guilty before God. Romans 3:19
This also flies in the face of what you said before about they're not being in the lake of fire because of sin, but because of unbelief. Well, is not unbelief a sin? Scripture commands men to believe; yet if one disobeys the law, that is sin. So therefore; disobeying the command to believe is sin.
So, if Christ has atoned for them; there is no grounds to send them to the lake of fire in the first place. Contrary to what a lot of people claim; unbelief is not blaspheming the Spirit of God. Blasphemy against the Spirit is the only sin that is unforgivable and that sin is very specific to time and place of witnessing Christ perform miracles in the flesh, knowing He's the Messiah and saying He does this by the power of Satan. That is blaspheming the Holy Ghost. That is the only definition of blaspheming the Holy Ghost. We can be assured that unbelief is not blaspheming the Holy Ghost, because everyone at some point or another is in a state of unbelief.
Give me an example of that ever happening.No, I do not believe this. Matter of fact; I said that one can come to redemption by the witness of creation, outside of the written revelation of Scripture and you made fun of me for saying that.
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