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The relevance of European and American conceptions of history

Tom 1

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I think there’s something to be said for not getting bogged down in the history of wherever you live, maybe that is what is part of what makes the US energetic and innovative and the EU more slow and steady. A country that is always looking forward can be more like that I suppose. But there are some problems with that too, there seems to be a need for the sort of review or wider acknowledgment of the legacy of some of the legal inequalities and so on that were part of the picture until not that long ago, and that can’t involve the majority unless there is widespread knowledge of that whole part of US history and how people were influenced by it. Otherwise you just get a string of seemingly pointless gestures like moving monuments and the like as in Chesterton’s post. Nothing is ever simple though, wherever people are concerned.
 
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Radagast

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wider acknowledgment of the legacy of some of the legal inequalities and so on that were part of the picture until not that long ago, and that can’t involve the majority unless there is widespread knowledge of that whole part of US history

That's the one part of US history that the schools cover in depth; everybody knows about it.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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On a certain level, you're right, Tom. Unfortunately, the social and ideological complexities (and complications) that exist here often run deeper than simply those that may involve having only a superficial understanding of the U.S. in relation to its own social history.
 
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coffee4u

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I don't believe we are nearly so Australian centric as Americans are US-centric. from what I have seen, kids in the US are barely taught any world history or geography.
 
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Radagast

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US history is literally the most white-washed curriculum.

Actually, no, it's not. The whole focus of the US history curriculum is "bad things white people did."

Not necessarily in any accurate form, of course.
 
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Radagast

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I don't believe we are nearly so Australian centric as Americans are US-centric. from what I have seen, kids in the US are barely taught any world history or geography.

In one study, 44% of Europeans could locate Syria on a map, but only 28% of Americans.

Also, 39% of Europeans could locate Nigeria on a map, but only 23% of Americans.

And even in terms of locating US states, Americans do surprisingly poorly.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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The British had great success with federating 4 different colonies into Canada in the mid 19th (and later expanded), so they kept on trying it. So they federated Australia (with Fiji and New Zealand declining to join), the West Indies, the Central African Federation, and South Africa.

The West Indies and Central African Federation didn't last, not because they weren't economically successful (the CAF was highly successful in that regard) but on account of political issues.

South Africa is also fairly young, as we were only united in 1910. The Cape Colony was started by the Dutch in 1652, but the other three (Natal, Transvaal and the Orange River Sovereignty) only came into existence post 1830.

These were very different areas. The Cape for instance, had a non-racial franchise which the Apartheid government gradually stripped away, finally stripping coloured men of voting rights only in 1970. Natal however, was highly racist, called the bad boy of the dominions by Churchill, for their brutal suppression and burning of Zulu villages in 1906 over a minor dispute (which disgusted Gandhi). The other two were the former Boer republics, with recent animosity, and their former agrarian character burned by Scorched Earth tactics in the war, and clannish Afrikaans populations that feared the English Uitlanders.

The other 3 infected the Cape with racial issues it simply did not have, and the grievances and myths of the Boer were exported to the Cape Dutch, welding a new identity as Afrikaners, with a prickly attitude to the British. The Cape would have been better off if it had never federated I think, and there is actually a small group of Cape separatists. Churchill actually helped negotiate South Africa into existence as a compromise, to maintain a balance of English and Afrikaners, as Milner had originally intended to federate Southern Rhodesia and Bechuanaland into it, to secure British supremacy in the new Dominion. It was hoped the Cape would mollify the excesses of the others, but the opposite largely happened.

My Australian history isn't very good, but I assume the colonies federated there were broadly similar, and certainly not as varied as here.

So in South Africa, we also don't have a strong sense of history, but it is overlaid with powerful myths. In most of the country a house from 1918 would be considered old too, except in the Western Cape where most wine estates go back to the 1700s. There are deeper forces at play here. I remember reading how Australian politicians thought a Japanese invasion might help mould a better Australian identity through blood spilt. We must keep in mind that these are created identities and humans are naturally tribal, as any trip to a sporting event makes plain.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I read his appreciation of the King James Bible, and found him a bit pompous and not at all very objective. I agree though that some writing is simply 'better' in some sense, but I would rather look for it in the division between Imagination and Fancy made by Coleridge. The former creates meaning, the latter merely regurgitates; in a facile simplification.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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Wow. Puts a whole new meanimg to Remember the Alamo. This is the sort of thing that happens elsewhere too, where we are supposed to have a 'broader view' but it is merely substituting one myth for another, or inventing one from whole cloth.

What I mean with popular heroes of expansion is not just people like Lewis and Clark, or Custer; but people like Wyatt Earp, the romantic popular idea of the Cowboy, the Homesteader, the Lawman of the West, etc. Don't US towns hold like Founder's Day parades and the like?
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I don't believe we are nearly so Australian centric as Americans are US-centric. from what I have seen, kids in the US are barely taught any world history or geography.
No, I don't think they are Australian-centric, but the general history knowledge is not as high as Europeans (in my experience). I like history and get frequent foreign doctors visiting us here, and try and talk about it with them.

We had a couple of Australians and the one had a jacket blazoned with the Eureka stockade flag. So I asked him if he was a Republican on account of it, to a blank stare. He said no, he just likes how it looks, after it was explained to him. His companion then said "that is such an Aussie thing to say". I know this is just anecdotal, but I have never gotten a deep sense of investment in history.
 
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Radagast

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On the political left in the US, there's a feeling that people are either totally evil or totally good; white people from the past are pretty much all in the former category.

From time to time, people get shifted from the "totally good" category to the "totally evil" one. That's been especially happening with feminists lately.

On the political right, of course, there tends to be an identification with "pioneers" and "founders."
 
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agapelove

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Actually, no, it's not. The whole focus of the US history curriculum is "bad things white people did."

Not necessarily in any accurate form, of course.
That's because US history is only made up of bad things white people did. If the government cannot even own up to it how can our textbooks? There are schools that still teach Christopher Columbus was a hero. The lack of context knowledge about social issues we deal with today is largely because of the distorted half truths in our curriculum. We leave out huge gaps of information when it comes to colonization, wars, slavery... just for the sake of preserving patriotism.
 
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Radagast

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We had a couple of Australians and the one had a jacket blazoned with the Eureka stockade flag.

It's complicated. In modern times, the Eureka stockade flag is largely a symbol of the militant Electrical Trades' Union (ETU) and the Construction, Forestry, Mining and Energy Union (CFMEU). It usually flies on construction sites.

For reasons similar to those in US politics, the CFMEU is drifting slowly to the right. That makes both the left and the right of politics distrustful of them, and results in the whole Eureka stockade episode being left out of the curriculum.

Even more embarrassing is the fact that several Eureka stockaders joined the US Confederacy when the CSS Shenandoah visited Victoria (they identified with rebels fighting a central government).

We Aussies tend to brush stuff like that under the carpet.
 
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Tom 1

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I think that proves Radagast’s point, Columbus was a man of his time, not some cackling Bond villain rubbing his hands over the death of millions. The Western world is a lot softer and smoother than it used to be, and we have a much broader perspective of the past now that people, obviously, of the time we now look back on didn’t have. Columbus was a great man in the sense that his actions had a tremendous impact on human events, not that he was a ‘nice guy’ who cared about people. He was ambitious, an adventurer, and hardly as well-placed as we are to understand what the eventual impact of his actions on native peoples he was encountering for the first time might be. He thought he was headed for the sub-continent for one thing. If he had known he certainly wouldn’t have thought about it the way a person in the 21st C might. By the logic of retrospective judgement everyone from the first sentient primate to pick up a stick and bash someone with it to the inventors of nuclear fission must be irredeemably evil.
 
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agapelove

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My point was not that history books should begin portraying Columbus as a genocidal maniac, but that if they're going to talk about him, they need to tell the full truth. We love to talk about his accomplishments and Thanksgiving but we place little emphasis on the devastating movements he lead against Native Americans, which is why the struggles of Indigenous people are still not fully recognized or acknowledged today. This is the same with slavery. I don't think textbooks should begin portraying past presidents as evil white supremacists who owned slaves, because likewise they were also just "men of their time". But why are we so afraid to talk about it? I think a large part of society's blindness to white privilege is due to the monopoly of strictly Anglo-American, mono-cultural viewpoints in education. If we're not aware of how history actually played out, it will just continue to replay itself.
 
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Tom 1

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It’s an interesting question. I don’t think you can disrupt a culture’s narrative like that however without it leading to some other extreme. That’s where, I think, the nihilistic mentality of the most extreme version of an Antifa type worldview comes from, that kind of blind rage leading to some incoherent vision that it’s all bad and so should just be torn down and - then what? Mandela’s truth and reconciliation was perhaps the most deeply considered approach to a problem of this sort, but that only appears to have lasted for as long as there was someone of his character around to oversee it.
 
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Radagast

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I think a large part of society's blindness to white privilege

There's no such thing. There is a constellation of forms of privilege in the US, of which the greatest is simply $$$.

the monopoly of strictly Anglo-American, mono-cultural viewpoints in education

It's more accurate to say that there's a monopoly of anti-Anglo-American viewpoints, it seems to me.

And that's partly because everybody has to be portrayed as immaculate angels or as the devil incarnate; nobody wants to portray figures of the past as they were: flawed human beings.
 
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