The Reason Why Job Suffered?

Achilles6129 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
It doesn't say what you claim. God never reached out his hand against Job. Satan wanted that but God didn't do it.

Job 2:3 directly says that God did reach out his hand against Job. Even if that passage weren't there, you'd still have to deal with the total sovereignty of God, meaning that no matter what God is ultimately responsible for Job's suffering.

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

W2L said:
His patience were greater than ours I'm assuming. I would rather think with sober judgment here. Not only did Job lose everything, then get ill, but his own wife forsook him and failed to lend support, and then his own friends did the same. I'm not sure I would have handled it as well as Job did.

Like I said, he handled things well at first but then he handled everything poorly which resulted in God literally chewing Job out for a few chapters, putting him in his place then Job realized how awful and wrong he had been and repented. That's what the book speaks about. And the lesson is is we can fail but through repentance we can be saved.

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
Job 2:3 directly says that God did reach out his hand against Job. Even if that passage weren't there, you'd still have to deal with the total sovereignty of God, meaning that no matter what God is ultimately responsible for Job's suffering.

Its that Satan wanted God to move against Job, it doesn't say that God did however.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
It appears a great many have not since they claim it contains things that it does not.

Ok ewq,

Let's cut to the chase
Should any curse and lay a charge to GOD now that we know the "behind the scenes" has been revealed in the book of JOB

Please refer also to James' accurate understanding of GOD

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

Achilles6129 said:
Job 2:3 directly says that God did reach out his hand against Job.

It doesn't say that. It says Satan moved/incited God to do it but God did not fall for this tactic. I have already shown that instead of moving against Job himself, God choose to let Satan do it.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Like I said, he handled things well at first but then he handled everything poorly which resulted in God literally chewing Job out for a few chapters, putting him in his place then Job realized how awful and wrong he had been and repented. That's what the book speaks about. And the lesson is is we can fail but through repentance we can be saved.

So did Moses until outside interference caused a distraction

With Moses it was the grumblings of the people
With Job it was the foolish advice of "his friends"

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
Ok ewq,

Let's cut to the chase
Should any curse and lay a charge to GOD now that we know the "behind the scenes" has been revealed in the book of JOB

What?

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Like I said, he handled things well at first but then he handled everything poorly which resulted in God literally chewing Job out for a few chapters, putting him in his place then Job realized how awful and wrong he had been and repented. That's what the book speaks about. And the lesson is is we can fail but through repentance we can be saved.

You seem to see job as a self righteous hypocrite, but I se something else. I see Job as a humble man, although imperfect, he quickly humbled himself after God talked to him, and he spoke much wisdom. That's what I see in Job. His words at the end our very edifying and lovely. His example is one that really sinks into my heart. His friends were also rebuked by God. That's another key point I keep taking away from this story.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
What?

Are you attributing whst Job went through to GOD? Have we all learned a lesson from the story of Job and what God wants us to see and know which HE has revealed to us in the story of Job?

And if not isn't James' words regarding the "father of light" sufficient

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
So did Moses until outside interference caused a distraction

With Moses it was the grumblings of the people
With Job it was the foolish advice of "his friends"

Nope. They didn't speak at first yet Job was already complaining.

Job 2:13 So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

It was downhill from this point for Job and we can't blame his friends though they didn't help.

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

Jobs example in patience was that even in the end, when God rebuked Him, he quickly humbled himself and spoke truth. That's the example of patience I see.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

W2L said:
You seem to see job as a self righteous hypocrite, but I se something else. I see Job as a humble man, although imperfect, he quickly humbled himself after God talked to him, and he spoke much wisdom. That's what I see in Job. His words at the end our very edifying and lovely. His example is one that really sinks into my heart. His friends were also rebuked by God. That's another key point I keep taking away from this story.

And Job had to pray for his friends who had spoken wrongly about GOD

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
So did Moses until outside interference caused a distraction

With Moses it was the grumblings of the people
With Job it was the foolish advice of "his friends"

Even Moses complained to God, Moses was tired of bearing the foolishness of the Hebrews. Perhaps Job was tired of bearing his wife and friends too.

mark kennedy · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
I don't know if they said it but Job was sure thought it.

They said it, the fourth through the twenty-third chapters is actually Job fielding their accusations. Most commentaries manage to point this out conclusively:

puts the blame for Job’s suffering squarely on Job himself. “Think now,” he says, “who that was innocent ever perished? Or where were the upright cut off? As I have seen, those who plow iniquity and sow trouble reap the same” (Job 4:7-8). Job’s second friend, Bildad, says much the same. “See, God will not reject a blameless person nor take the hand of evildoers” (Job 8:20). The third friend, Zophar, repeats the refrain. “If iniquity is in your hand, put it far away, do not let wickedness reside in your tents. Surely then you will lift up your face without blemish; you will be secure, and will not fear.…Your life will be brighter than the noonday” (Job 11:14-15, 17). Job’s Friends Accuse Him of Doing Evil (Job 4-23)

It reminds me of the man born blind:

His disciples asked him, "Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?" (John 9:2)

Why was the man born blind? The Lord answers:

“Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him. As long as it is day, we must do the works of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” (John 9:3-5)

The rich man and Lazarus comes to mind, the Lord's enemies mock him at the cross saying he saved others, lets see if he can save himself. God knows, literally first hand, what it means to be held up to public shame and ridicule. We don't really know if the poor and disabled suffer because God has some great hidden purpose. We do know this:

In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it. (John 1:4,5)

The meaning of suffering can elude us, the misery and shame of malefactors we think of as justice can sometimes be relative. Pardon the length of this quote, I think it's important to see the context:

The soldiers also came up and mocked him. They offered him wine vinegar and said, “If you are the king of the Jews, save yourself.” There was a written notice above him, which read: this is the king of the jews. One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: “Aren’t you the Messiah? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him. “Don’t you fear God,” he said, “since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.”Jesus answered him, “Truly I tell you, today you will be with me in paradise.” (Luke 23:36-43)

Two condemned men on each side of the Lord, as the prophet says, "we considered him punished by God, stricken by him, and afflicted." (Isaiah 53:4). They didn't know but one of them repents, the other one doesn't. I struggled with this one for years, I still have trouble with it from time to time. If this is easy for you your really not thinking this through.

But he knows the way that I take; when he has tested me, I will come forth as gold. (Job 23:10)

This book has genuine insight if you can let it sink in. All I can tell you is that early in my Christian walk when I struggled to understand the principles involved Job was an invaluable help.

Grace and peace,
Mark

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Nope. They didn't speak at first yet Job was already complaining.

Job 2:13 So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

It was downhill from this point for Job and we can't blame his friends though they didn't help.

Yes, after listening to his own wife cast more darkness onto him. Then instead of speaking the truth about God, his friends spoke wrongly about God.

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
And Job had to pray for his friends who had spoken wrongly about GOD

Yes.

ewq1938 · Aug 23, 2016

W2L said:
You seem to see job as a self righteous hypocrite, but I se something else.

If you read the book you will see that Job did consider himself too righteous to have to suffer as he was and blamed God for being unfair.

Job 6:5 Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
Job 6:6 Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
Job 6:7 The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:11 What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?
Job 6:12 Is my strength the strength of stones? or is my flesh of brass?
Job 6:13 Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?
Job 6:14 To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.
Job 6:15 My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
Job 6:16 Which are blackish by reason of the ice, and wherein the snow is hid:
Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
Job 6:18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
Job 6:19 The troops of Tema looked, the companies of Sheba waited for them.
Job 6:20 They were confounded because they had hoped; they came thither, and were ashamed.
Job 6:21 For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down, and are afraid.
Job 6:22 Did I say, Bring unto me? or, Give a reward for me of your substance?
Job 6:23 Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Little does Job know that he shall eventually be scolded and taught by God himself, and he would come to understand the errors of his tongue. This takes place near the end of the book for several chapters but is awhile yet in the future. Job continues:

Job 6:25 How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
Job 6:26 Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
Job 6:27 Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
Job 6:28 Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
Job 6:29 Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
Job 6:30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Pride is deceptive. It assures you that you are right, even when you are not. Job cannot yet see how his tongue is full of iniquity and untruth about God but he will be shown the truth.

Job speaks:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job is not going to be quiet about the injustice he feels God is forcing upon him! He will speak out openly and loudly!

Job 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

“When I go to bed I should be allowed a safe and pleasant time but, no, God is there to torture me in my sleep!”

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

“I’d rather be strangled to death than live like this!”

Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

"What makes you so concerned about us humans? Why do you test us from sunrise to sunset? Won't you look away just long enough for me to swallow? Why do you watch us so closely?"

Job later says:

Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Job 9:14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

“If God came into court when I called him, he would not hear my case in fact he would strike me with a storm and increase my injuries for no reason at all!”

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

“Even if I were innocent, God would prove me wrong. I am not guilty, but I no longer care what happens to me.”

W2L · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
If you read the book you will see that Job did consider himself too righteous to have to suffer as he was and blamed God for being unfair.

Job 6:5 Doth the wild ass bray when he hath grass? or loweth the ox over his fodder?
Job 6:6 Can that which is unsavoury be eaten without salt? or is there any taste in the white of an egg?
Job 6:7 The things that my soul refused to touch are as my sorrowful meat.
Job 6:8 Oh that I might have my request; and that God would grant me the thing that I long for!
Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!
Job 6:10 Then should I yet have comfort; yea, I would harden myself in sorrow: let him not spare; for I have not concealed the words of the Holy One.
Job 6:11 What is my strength, that I should hope? and what is mine end, that I should prolong my life?
Job 6:12 Is my strength the strength of stones? or is my flesh of brass?
Job 6:13 Is not my help in me? and is wisdom driven quite from me?
Job 6:14 To him that is afflicted pity should be shewed from his friend; but he forsaketh the fear of the Almighty.
Job 6:15 My brethren have dealt deceitfully as a brook, and as the stream of brooks they pass away;
Job 6:16 Which are blackish by reason of the ice, and wherein the snow is hid:
Job 6:17 What time they wax warm, they vanish: when it is hot, they are consumed out of their place.
Job 6:18 The paths of their way are turned aside; they go to nothing, and perish.
Job 6:19 The troops of Tema looked, the companies of Sheba waited for them.
Job 6:20 They were confounded because they had hoped; they came thither, and were ashamed.
Job 6:21 For now ye are nothing; ye see my casting down, and are afraid.
Job 6:22 Did I say, Bring unto me? or, Give a reward for me of your substance?
Job 6:23 Or, Deliver me from the enemy's hand? or, Redeem me from the hand of the mighty?
Job 6:24 Teach me, and I will hold my tongue: and cause me to understand wherein I have erred.

Little does Job know that he shall eventually be scolded and taught by God himself, and he would come to understand the errors of his tongue. This takes place near the end of the book for several chapters but is awhile yet in the future. Job continues:

Job 6:25 How forcible are right words! but what doth your arguing reprove?
Job 6:26 Do ye imagine to reprove words, and the speeches of one that is desperate, which are as wind?
Job 6:27 Yea, ye overwhelm the fatherless, and ye dig a pit for your friend.
Job 6:28 Now therefore be content, look upon me; for it is evident unto you if I lie.
Job 6:29 Return, I pray you, let it not be iniquity; yea, return again, my righteousness is in it.
Job 6:30 Is there iniquity in my tongue? cannot my taste discern perverse things?

Pride is deceptive. It assures you that you are right, even when you are not. Job cannot yet see how his tongue is full of iniquity and untruth about God but he will be shown the truth.

Job speaks:

Job 7:11 Therefore I will not refrain my mouth; I will speak in the anguish of my spirit; I will complain in the bitterness of my soul.

Job is not going to be quiet about the injustice he feels God is forcing upon him! He will speak out openly and loudly!

Job 7:12 Am I a sea, or a whale, that thou settest a watch over me?
Job 7:13 When I say, My bed shall comfort me, my couch shall ease my complaint;
Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

“When I go to bed I should be allowed a safe and pleasant time but, no, God is there to torture me in my sleep!”

Job 7:15 So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

“I’d rather be strangled to death than live like this!”

Job 7:16 I loathe it; I would not live alway: let me alone; for my days are vanity.
Job 7:17 What is man, that thou shouldest magnify him? and that thou shouldest set thine heart upon him?
Job 7:18 And that thou shouldest visit him every morning, and try him every moment?
Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
Job 7:20 I have sinned; what shall I do unto thee, O thou preserver of men? why hast thou set me as a mark against thee, so that I am a burden to myself?

"What makes you so concerned about us humans? Why do you test us from sunrise to sunset? Won't you look away just long enough for me to swallow? Why do you watch us so closely?"

Job later says:

Job 9:13 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him.
Job 9:14 How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him?
Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.
Job 9:16 If I had called, and he had answered me; yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.
Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

“If God came into court when I called him, he would not hear my case in fact he would strike me with a storm and increase my injuries for no reason at all!”

Job 9:18 He will not suffer me to take my breath, but filleth me with bitterness.
Job 9:19 If I speak of strength, lo, he is strong: and if of judgment, who shall set me a time to plead?
Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.
Job 9:21 Though I were perfect, yet would I not know my soul: I would despise my life.

“Even if I were innocent, God would prove me wrong. I am not guilty, but I no longer care what happens to me.”

Job was innocent, but he lacked understanding about Gods ways not being our ways. He probably knew it, but his suffering was too great and his mind tried to comprehend it. Job was not self righteous, he was just enduring a great hardship, and he was just a man who needed to learn more about God. That's true of everyone. Our flesh is a burdensome thing, we all struggle in it. James says Job was an example to consider, Jobs patience is noted. I believe that and I see how we all struggle, especially myself. Job was not a self righteous hypocrite. He quickly humbled himself at Gods rebuke, and that's something the Pharisees could never do. They were self righteous.

miknik5 · Aug 23, 2016

ewq1938 said:
Nope. They didn't speak at first yet Job was already complaining.

Job 2:13 So they sat down with him upon the ground seven days and seven nights, and none spake a word unto him: for they saw that his grief was very great.
Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

It was downhill from this point for Job and we can't blame his friends though they didn't help.

If they had kept their mouths shut they wouldn't have ADDED to Jobs sufferings

What did they know that he didn't know?

He knew GOD and he thought they too knew GOD but by what they said JOB (and Elihu as well) saw that really they didn't know as well as was initially thought

mark kennedy · Aug 23, 2016

miknik5 said:
And Job had to pray for his friends who had spoken wrongly about GOD

So did Jesus:

Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they are doing.” (Luke 23:34)

The Reason Why Job Suffered?

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