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I don't understand this.Precisely. . .any moral choice man is unable to make means his will is not free in that regard.
If he cannot choose to give up his alcohol, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.
If he can give it up, his will is free in that regard.
If man cannot choose to be sinless, his will is not free in that regard, and he does not have complete free will.
No fallen man has complete free will. . .he has only limited free will
That is not true Clare.Freedom is moral power. . .and addicts don't always have the moral power to overcome addiction. . .they are not morally free.
You can understand this scripture correctly, if you want to.Jesus said mankind was a slave to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.
Yes, and he isn't saying what you said.You either believe Jesus, or you don't.
Thank you for taking the time to consider the OP, and respond to it.Please keep in mind that my comments about the "Will" are strictly in the moral/immoral context.
The definition of freewill in Greek that you have given above is an adjective, not a noun. It describes a certain type of action or choice that is uncoerced/voluntary.
Elsewhere, you identify a free will as a free agent. That term is describing a will in a state of equivocation between two masters and therefore is for all intents and purposes depicting an undecided soul in a state of equivocation ---> See doublemindedness, also understand why Jesus would say this ---> "You can't serve two masters".
Neither of these meanings are applicable to any description consistent with Adam being made with a free will. I can't actually comment on the scriptures you provided as 'proof' of a free will since the definitions of free will you provided are inconsistent. For the sake of clarity, you need to specify what the will is free from when you claim a free will.
The only coherent meaning of the term free will as a noun that I can see in scripture is a will qualified as free from sin. That would also be consistent with the free will that God gave Adam when he was created.
Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor.
The Bible is the Breathed Word of The Magnificent Almighty Everlasting Truthful Real Creator of all things.The Bible says Adam was not deceived.Thus Adam acted on his own free will.
Do you disagree?
Curious in a way. Looking at mankind and all the christendom and religions that act stupid and ungodly every day,Did God create his intelligent children with free will?
Though many whether religious or non religious claim not, and argue against this, the answer is clearly yes.
Do slaves of righteousness desire to escape from the government of YHVH's Kingdom/ Jesus ?However, there is Jesus' statement that all men are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34). . .slaves are not free.
Isaiah 53:6Thank you for taking the time to consider the OP, and respond to it.
Can I answer based on what you understand from, first of all...
The Bible says Adam was not deceived.Thus Adam acted on his own free will.
Do you disagree?
No. We actually make plenty of bad choices. If we didn’t then we would never have to confess our sins. I always confess my known sins and ask forgiveness for any sins that I might have committed unknowingly. One reason here why I do not have the free will to not sin.Not suggesting. Just asking... Are you saying that free will means making only right choices?
That's why I asked, Can I answer based on what you understand, because I wanted to see if you understood what you read in the OP. Evidently you don't.Isaiah 53:6
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.
I can't agree or disagree without you first qualifying what you mean by "his own free will". I can say with certainty we each have our own individual will just like Isaiah 53:6 shows above, but what is the will supposedly free from? We really need to qualify what the will is free from when we assert a free will, otherwise it's not a stable term to reason upon.
James 1:14But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire
From conversing with persons on this subject, I find that most do not understand free will, and either philosophize it, confuse it with perfection, or over think it.We need to acknowledge that there is a carnal will that seeks one's own comfort and avoids discomfort. The flesh is hardwired to like pleasure and dislike pain.
We also have to acknowledge that the context of 1 Timothy 2:14 is not about a will. It's about whether the man should have authority over the woman.
It looks to me like Paul is expressing his opinion that the woman should not usurp authority over the man based upon the reasoning that the man was made first (woman was made from a piece of the man) and also that the man was not the one deceived (in the garden).
I don't think this scripture can be used to validate that Adam or Eve in a state of innocence/ignorance were capable of avoiding the events set in motion by the serpent who is markedly described as the craftiest creature. If I am to assume that Eve's actions are more excusable because she at least was beguiled, it would be contradictory for Paul to say that the man who has no such excuse, should be in charge over the woman because he knew exactly what he was doing when he counted God as untrustworthy.
Not only that, we know that God told Adam his mistake was listening to the woman, but since I don't believe God is disparaging the female as unworthy to ever listen to, I think God is saying Adam should have trusted to his own judgment and not been so malleable to the woman.
As for who should be in charge, elsewhere in scripture Paul states that there is no Jew or gentile or male or female, for we are all one in Jesus Christ. With the understanding that the greatest is the one who serves the rest, that sounds to me like it doesn't matter if you're a woman or man.
Finally, the assertion that mankind has a free will is often used to apply blameworthiness, or some measure of culpability for wickedness and sin. This type of freewill theology is based on the either-or question of who is to blame for sin, man or God?
Thank you.No. We actually make plenty of bad choices. If we didn’t then we would never have to confess our sins. I always confess my known sins and ask forgiveness for any sins that I might have committed unknowingly. One reason here why I do not have the free will to not sin.
It's not about God, it's about man.
The word here is "voluntary," not "free will."The scriptures disagree. Leviticus 1:3; 1 Corinthians 9:16-18 Deuteronomy 30:19; 2 Corinthians 9:7; Philemon 1:14
No, complete free will (which is the only true free will) is the power (freedom) to make all moral choices.If one ignores the scriptures Galatians 5:1, 13; Galatians 6:6, 16, 17, they will believe that.
Free will is the ability to act on one's own accord; unforced, of one's own will, voluntary; willing deliberate action (choice).
Can man choose to live sinlessly?You need to mention one particular moral choice men cannot make.
Otherwise, this statement has no meaning.
Please name one particular moral choice men cannot make. Just one.
We don't need a list.
All unregenerate mankind are slaves to sin (Jn 8:34) until they are born again.Do slaves of righteousness desire to escape from the government of YHVH's Kingdom/ Jesus ?
Do you know of anyone who can choose to practice absolutely no sin, can choose to live completely sinless?I don't understand this.
Are you saying a person who gives into weakness - thus making a choice to be immoral, makes all men the same, and therefore no man can choose not to practice sin?
We need to qualify what the will is free from, when we assert a free will. Who can understand what it means if it's not qualified?That's why I asked, Can I answer based on what you understand, because I wanted to see if you understood what you read in the OP. Evidently you don't.
I am wondering how I can make it any clearer. I realize it cannot be made any simpler, so, I'll have to point out what you need to pay attention to.
Starting with John 8:44, with God's heavenly children - the spirit creation, called angels, the Bible says of the one called Devil and Satan... When he lies, he speaks out of his own character. That is... pertaining to self, or of his own
How can that be simplified? Of his own... Out of his own self....
This we can agree on --> the children born of the devil have the same character as their father --> evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, slanders.Perhaps if you link what Jesus said to that. Matthew 15:19 For out of the heart come forth evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, sexual immorality, thefts, false testimonies, slanders.
The heart pertains to the inner self... what a person is on the inside.
The tares like obscurity and darkness because they don't want to be found.The angel that sinned... unlike Jesus, and the faithful angels, rebelled, even though he did not have sin... was not born in sin, but acted on his own - self - what is in him - his heart.
The disciple James uses this term in this way...
James 1:14
Jesus thus makes clear that the angel that became Satan the Devil, acts according to his own will, or desire.
What else can be meant by his own will, other than acting freely?
The Greek term, which you said is an adjective, and not a noun, is hekousios - meaning free will - the neuter of a derivative from hekon; voluntariness -- willingly, which is (an adjective, a primitive term) – properly, willing; "unforced, of one's own will, voluntary" (J. Thayer), i.e. acting on one's own accord. The root (hek-) emphasizes intentional, deliberate action (choice), i.e. "of free-will" (J. Thayer).
This is not talking about someone's will, in the sense of my will, your will - the noun, but as it says willing; unforced; deliberate action; voluntary; acting on one's own accord. Which seals the point that free will refers to something done freely.. without anyone or anything forcing it.
People who are blinded by lies do not represent intelligence nor an ability to act freely of their own.All intelligent beings have this ability to act freely of their own.
So, going back to angels and men... how can this be made simpler? Having the freedom to act on one's own accord, in harmony with one's own desires.
This scripture is referring to a voluntary offering. It is an adverb, not a noun as in a man's will.I referred to the scriptures which refer to man's free will, repeatedly.
Leviticus 1:3;
I see Paul conveying that he does NOT volunteer to preach the Gospel.
This is a choice/option to either do these commandments or die. It is the exact opposite of unforced.
This is exhorting us to be liberal concerning our being charitable. Charity is a fruit of the Holy Spirit of Truth, it is not self-willed.
This scripture is simply saying Paul doesn't want Philemon to feel forced about receiving Onesimus.
This is why we need to qualify what the will is free from when we assert free will. Here you're now saying it means we have two options to choose from Life or death which now means it's NOT voluntary --> Do these commandments or be cursed and die.Deuteronomy 30:19, 20, is a key scripture which very simply makes clear that man has freedom of choice. That is what free will is...
I don't know why you would think Adam desired to disobey God. The scriptures actually show that Adam didn't volunteer to eat, he was persuaded by the woman who was deceived --> And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;The freedom to choose to act on one's own accord... voluntarily; willingly; unforced; deliberate... which is what Adam did, in accord with his desires.
Can this be made any simpler?
No, this above is incorrect. God is Spirit. The True worship of God is drawn out by the object of worship, it's not a choice/decision. When we become fully convinced that God's Spirit is the Light of the soul and the only goodness in our soul that keeps us from becoming abominations, then we will worship Him in Truth.Despite sin, which Adam did not have before making a free choice, man still has this ability, which is why God requires man worship him willingly; unforced; voluntarily; acting on one's own accord.
In this post I'm responding to you've identified 4 different meanings of "free" will:From conversing with persons on this subject, I find that most do not understand free will, and either philosophize it, confuse it with perfection, or over think it.
It's not complicated at all.
i.e. tares like rules that protect their dark and wrong motives ? Yet want to be heard/ 'found'/ 'popular'/ 'accepted'/ 'listened to' / 'attention' ........ a real mix of mostly or all shellfish motives/intents/purposes easy to hide online ......The tares like obscurity and darkness because they don't want to be found.
The wheat like clarity and Light because they want to be found.
Therefore, it's wrong to use unqualified terms that obscure rather than clarify.
Perhaps. I believe one's motives are going to be predetermined by one's image of God/god living in their heart.i.e. tares like rules that protect their dark and wrong motives ?
I don't have an answer other than God is sifting, refining.Yet want to be heard/ 'found'/ 'popular'/ 'accepted'/ 'listened to' / 'attention' ........ a real mix of mostly or all shellfish motives/intents/purposes easy to hide online ......
When tares are in power, in control, what becomes of the average 'normal' person who doesn't know this ?
God , or more often, a god.... like the prince of evil.....Perhaps. I believe one's motives are going to be predetermined by one's image of God/god living in their heart.
So how exactly do you perceive the term Elohim <--plural?God , or more often, a god.... like the prince of evil.....
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