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The real Real Presence

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Abba

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How many protestants beleive in the real presence of the Eucharist (communion) at Mass/prayer service? I dont think that there are too many.

Anyways, I was flipping through the bible yesterday when I saw some verses that gave absolute proof without doubt that the Eucharist is the real body and blood, not a symbol. Here goes:

"For I recieved from the Lord the teaching that I passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed,took a piece of bread, gave thanks to God, broke it, and said, "this is my body, which is for you. Do this in memory of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup and said, "this cup is God's new covenant, sealed with my blood. Whenever you drink it, do so in memory of me."
This means that every time you eat this bread and drink from this cup you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. It follows that if any one of you eats the Lord's bread or drink from his cup in a way that dishonors him, you are guilty of sin against the Lord's body and blood. So then, you should examine yourself first, before you eat the bread and drink from the cup."
-1 Corinthians 11.23-28.

An examination of conscience, described here, is necessary for a Catholic to recieve communion. You have to be in the right state to recieve Christ.

Note how if we recieve His body and blood unworthily, we are guilty of sin against him. This is where Catholicism gets the principple that we cannot receive the Eucharist in a state of grave sin.

I'd like to hear from someone who doesnt beleive in the real presence and his thoughts on those verses.
 

aanjt

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I know you consider Episcopalians/Anglicans protestants, so I will answer. Yes, we do believe in the Real Presence. We believe that the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ. When we bow before the altar, it is not to the altar, it is not to the priest or the cross, it is to Christ, in the Mass, in the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle. This is why we geneflect before entering a pew and upon leaving it.

Yours in Christ,
Jen
 
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theseed

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theseed said:
The question would be, "What is an unworthy manner". What were the Corinthians doing wrong?
1 Cor. 11 said:
33 So then, my brethren, when you come together to eat, wait for one another.
34 If anyone is (37) hungry, let him eat (38) at home, so that you will not come together for judgment.
They were indulging themselves with the Lord's Supper! Which proclaims the Lord's death! :eek:
 
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christian-only

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Abba said:
How many protestants beleive in the real presence of the Eucharist

Does "real presence" have to mean "literal physical presence" to you or can it be spiritual?

"For I recieved from the Lord the teaching that I passed on to you: that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed,took a piece of bread, gave thanks to God, broke it, and said, "this is my body, which is for you. Do this in memory of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup and said, "this cup is God's new covenant, sealed with my blood. Whenever you drink it, do so in memory of me."

If you will read the above passage that you posted again, you will see that Jesus not only says of the bread "this IS my body," but also of the cup "this IS the New Covenant." Now if the word "IS" means "literally physically becomes" or some such thing, then not only does the bread literally become His body, but the cup literally becomes the New Covenant! The fact that you, and indeed no Catholic (and no Anglican or Lutheran), will allow that the cup literally becomes the New Covenant disproves transubstantiation (and consubstantiation) and shows that it (they) is (are) based on a biased and INCONSISTANT interpretation of this passage. The bread is Jesus' body, and the wine is Jesus' blood in the EXACT SAME sense that the cup is the New Covenant. If, therefore, the cup neither transubstantiates nor consubstantiates into the New Covenant, neither do the bread and wine.
 
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Christy4Christ

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aanjt said:
I know you consider Episcopalians/Anglicans protestants, so I will answer. Yes, we do believe in the Real Presence. We believe that the bread and wine is the body and blood of Christ. When we bow before the altar, it is not to the altar, it is not to the priest or the cross, it is to Christ, in the Mass, in the Reserved Sacrament in the Tabernacle. This is why we geneflect before entering a pew and upon leaving it.

Yours in Christ,
Jen


I believe that Lutherans believe this as well. It is my understanding that Lutherans and Episcopalians remained the closest to Catholicism. I'm not sure if this is correct but it is what I have heard.
 
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Christy4Christ

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christian-only said:
Does "real presence" have to mean "literal physical presence" to you or can it be spiritual?



If you will read the above passage that you posted again, you will see that Jesus not only says of the bread "this IS my body," but also of the cup "this IS the New Covenant." Now if the word "IS" means "literally physically becomes" or some such thing, then not only does the bread literally become His body, but the cup literally becomes the New Covenant! The fact that you, and indeed no Catholic (and no Anglican or Lutheran), will allow that the cup literally becomes the New Covenant disproves transubstantiation (and consubstantiation) and shows that it (they) is (are) based on a biased and INCONSISTANT interpretation of this passage. The bread is Jesus' body, and the wine is Jesus' blood in the EXACT SAME sense that the cup is the New Covenant. If, therefore, the cup neither transubstantiates nor consubstantiates into the New Covenant, neither do the bread and wine.


Where are you getting the idea that NO Catholic allows the cup?!?!
 
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christian-only

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Christy4Christ said:
Where are you getting the idea that NO Catholic allows the cup?!?!

I didn't say no Catholics "allow the cup" but rather that no Catholics "will allow that the cup literally becomes the New Covenant." That is, they will not allow transubstantiation to apply to the cup, even though the language is the same, i.e. the word "IS."
 
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Christy4Christ

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christian-only said:
I didn't say no Catholics "allow the cup" but rather that no Catholics "will allow that the cup literally becomes the New Covenant." That is, they will not allow transubstantiation to apply to the cup, even though the language is the same, i.e. the word "IS."


You are misinformed, grossly. That is VERY incorrect and I have no clue where you got this information.
 
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Bulldog

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The Lutheran belief is a little different thatn the Catholic one. Catholics believe transubstination, the belief that the bread and wine become the literal flesh and blood; while Lutherans believe consubstination the belief that the bread and wine becomee Christ's flesh but still remains bread and wine.
 
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Christy4Christ

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Here go ahead and read about the subject and get back to us when you've finished..

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/05573a.htm#3



From the Catechism of the Catholic church

1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
 
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Christy4Christ

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Bulldog said:
The Lutheran belief is a little different thatn the Catholic one. Catholics believe transubstination, the belief that the bread and wine become the literal flesh and blood; while Lutherans believe consubstination the belief that the bread and wine becomee Christ's flesh but still remains bread and wine.


Yes, that I was aware of :)
 
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Christy4Christ

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Lotar said:
Lutherans believe in that Christ's body and blood are truly present. Confession and absolution is before communion, so that we do not partake in an unworthy manner.
This is the same as Catholics. (Even if the transubstantiation doctrine is not quite the same)
 
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christian-only

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So, Christy, you are saying that to Catholics the bread is literally Christ's body, the wine literally His blood, and the cup literally the New Covenant? I've never heard any Catholic affirm that last one, but all reject it. The article you linked does not support your claim, seeing as how the word cup only occurs once: "the faithful partook of the broken particles of the Sacred Host and drank in common from the same cup."
 
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Christy4Christ

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christian-only said:
So, Christy, you are saying that to Catholics the bread is literally Christ's body, the wine literally His blood, and the cup literally the New Covenant? I've never heard any Catholic affirm that last one, but all reject it. The article you linked does not support your claim, seeing as how the word cup only occurs once: "the faithful partook of the broken particles of the Sacred Host and drank in common from the same cup."


I do not wish to call you a liar but I believe you are totally mistaken,I doubt seriously you have even heard a Catholic deny that the cup is the blood.


What other evidence do you need?? Here is the official teaching of the Catholic church:


From the Catechism of the Catholic church


1413 By the consecration the transubstantiation of the bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ is brought about. Under the consecrated species of bread and wine Christ himself, living and glorious, is present in a true, real, and substantial manner: his Body and his Blood, with his soul and his divinity (cf. Council of Trent: DS 1640; 1651).
 
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christian-only

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christy4Christ said:
I do not wish to call you a liar but I believe you are totally mistaken,I doubt seriously you have even heard a Catholic deny that the cup is the blood.

The cup is the New Covenant. (1 Cor 11:25) The contents of the cup is the blood. That's what I'm getting at. Jesus says of the bread, this is my body, and you take it literally. Jesus says of the contents of the cup, this is my blood, and you take it literally. Jesus says of the cup itself, this is the New Covenant, and you take it figuratively. That's not consistent, and that inconsistency disproves transubstantiation. If the word "is" does not refer to transubstantiation between the cup and the NT then neither does it refer to such between the bread and body or contents of the cup and blood.
 
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Christy4Christ

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christian-only said:
The cup is the New Covenant. (1 Cor 11:25) The contents of the cup is the blood. That's what I'm getting at. Jesus says of the bread, this is my body, and you take it literally. Jesus says of the contents of the cup, this is my blood, and you take it literally. Jesus says of the cup itself, this is the New Covenant, and you take it figuratively. That's not consistent, and that inconsistency disproves transubstantiation. If the word "is" does not refer to transubstantiation between the cup and the NT then neither does it refer to such between the bread and body or contents of the cup and blood.
Well He does say take this cup and drink from it. You think that it is the cup itself we should grind up and eat? I am totally missing your point :confused:
 
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When it comes to how I approach and receive the Eucharist, I am somewhere in between common Protestant and Catholic interpretations. I think Donald Spoto summed it up best in his book The Hidden Jesus (pages 190 to 206). I'm sharing this as a matter of interest, not as a matter of debate:

(197)
In discussing the Eucharist, it is crucial to keep in mind that all human language is metaphor – a struggling and striving with crude human words and human concepts to express an experience of the beyond. The words, the formulae of faith, however necessary and refined, are always conditioned and limited by the culture, the time and place in which they are expressed. So much is self-evident.

This is as it should be, for it is not the formulae, however essential, but the act of giving oneself over to God in trusting faith: this is what matters when we speak the words we have invented to express our experience of the transcendent. With specific reference to the Eucharist, what counts is not that we twist and turn philosophical language (words like "substance" and "accidents," which would have made no sense to Jesus or his friends), requiring them to serve once and for all time an experience of God's gift of Himself to us – can any words ever do that justice?

(198)
No, what matters is that one accepts that along the journey of faith, receiving this bread and sharing this cup with our fellow pilgrims places us in the presence of him who is our salvation. But there is a danger here: since the Risen Jesus is no longer limited by time and place, and cannot be said to be here (in the bread and wine, for example) but not there (a few feet away, on an altar table or in a pew), we have to be very careful about a magical interpretation of a sacred reality. Still more careful ought we to be: not to think wrongly that the presence of the Risen Jesus in our midst is due to the "power" of a cultic priest, who "makes" him present on command, by virtue of uttering a few words. That, too, is magic, not the divinely free activity by which God manifests Himself as He wills in the person of Jesus.

Clearly, when we speak of the presence of God we cannot speak in any way of a spatial or physical presence. We cannot attribute to God the kind of body that we have – the body that is defined and limited by our place in space and time. Rather, he fills all matter – but not in a spatial or physical way. When we say that God is everywhere, we don't mean that he occupies space but that the world and everything in it could not exist without his inherent, indwelling presence. (198)
After elaborating a bit on apprehending the numinous, he continues:

(200)
What does all this mean for belief that Jesus is present in the Eucharist?

It means first of all that Jesus the Christ is of course always fully present outside the Eucharist liturgy, or the Mass. He is really present wherever we are – in a presence that is réelle parce que réalisante, as the French theologian Henri de Lubac said: real because it realizes, actualizes, is effective. The elements of bread and wine and the enactment of a formal liturgy are not negligible, nor can we forever do without them. In this regard, there is something significant about the tradition – and, alas, tradition is neither a word nor an idea that carries much currency in our time.

From very soon after the death of Jesus right down to our present times, those who believe in him have gathered to break bread and share the cup. Over twenty centuries, the ritual has changed, become more elaborate at some times, simpler at others. But whether it occurs in a great cathedral, with a thousand-voice choir and the richest panoply that can be arranged, or in a mud hut where a few barefoot poor folk gather in hope, the reality proclaimed by Christian faith is the same. Like the infant imaginatively described as laid "in a manger," Jesus comes to be the food of his people – his presence nourishes and sustains. If we dare to cast aside or even to diminish that tradition, so central to admitting both our need of God and His power to give Himself to us – we are of all generations the most to be pitied.

A long list of rights and prayers, of devotions and cults, have come and gone over two thousand years. But just as Judaism would effectively abandon the core of its faith-witness were it to abolish the Passover meal, so it is with the Eucharist. In a sense, it lifts the restrictions on Christians in ever generation – they are freed from the limitations of their own particularity, their own narrow ways of doing things. This, the sacred meal witnesses, links us to the faith of the apostles. This gives us a frame of reference outside ourselves. The sheer simplicity of the gestures, of the prayers, of listening to the Scriptures, of breaking bread and sharing the cup – all this overarches every culture and epoch.

(201)
So much of this is linked to our need to adore. To kneel, to bow, to join the hands, to keep silence in the presence of the Holy One – these seem stranger to contemporary people than perhaps to any previous age of the world. But the simple, quiet gestures, the humbling of the body, listening to the ancient words, withdrawing from everything that constitutes our busy world and our many cares – is not all this the condition of our knowing the presence of God and allowing Him to enter our lives and claim us for His own?

Through the liturgy, the Risen Jesus is not summoned from another world in any spatial way, nor is there a physical or chemical change in the bread and wine. What happens is a change of signs, of what things mean. Bread and wine become signs actualizing the deepest self-giving of Christ to us. The Lord gives himself to us as food, and that is the reality of which these powerful signs speak. It is entirely inappropriate, therefore, to call the bread and wine "merely" or "only" symbols, for in the mystery of God's presence in and among us, the symbols given to us are the closest we can come to the reality. In the realm of faith, symbols are never "just symbols." They are the carrier of the reality.
Spoto, Donald. "The Supper: Jesus and the Eucharist." The Hidden Jesus: A New Life. New York, NY: St. Martin’s Press, 1998.
 
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