The Rapture?

DiscipleOfIAm said:

He returns like a thief in the night, no one knows when.

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Really?


1 Thess 5:4

But YOU,

brethren,

are NOT in darkness,

that THE DAY would overtake

YOU like a thief;

ronmathison said:

Really?


1 Thess 5:4

But YOU,

brethren,

are NOT in darkness,

that THE DAY would overtake

YOU like a thief;

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Be sure you are reading the entire context of the passage. You can't take one verse and say that sums it up. Be sure and read the before and after that verse to get the whole context.

1Thes 4:14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also that are fallen asleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 4:15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we that are alive, that are left unto the coming of the Lord, shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep. 4:16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven, with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first; 4:17then we that are alive, that are left, shall together with them be caught up in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 4:18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.
5:1But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that aught be written unto you. 5:2For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 5:3When they are saying, Peace and safety, then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall in no wise escape. 5:4But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

We know because we have been given clues and we know because we are not in darkness. Not because it is a post-trib knowledge.

Peace be with you my friend.

God Bless!

What do you mean by pre mid and post??

There was not "there will be no rapture" option so I didn't vote............there will be no rapture (it was invented in the early 1800's by John Darby) Jesus will return the dead in Christ will be ressurected and we will dwell on a restored pre-Genesis 3 earth with Him for eternity.

knownbeforetime said:

This is how God has worked since Noah's time. Enoch was taken. Noah was preserved through. The unbelievers killed.

Lot was told to get the heck out of Dodge so the angels could do their work. It was clear that the angels couldn't do their work unless righteous Lot was taken out.

Daniel was mysteriously missing during the Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego business.

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Notice in all those examples you cite who "leaves" the planet (think Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds) those who are God's covenant people remain on God's creation, and the evil ones are destroyed. No where are they removed from creation.

knownbeforetime said:

I also believe that the Church will be taken before He pours out His wrath on the planet.]

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The idea that this planet (God's creation) will rot while those that are His are taken away has it's root's in Gnosticism.......material=bad, spiritual=good........God is restoring His creation (all of it) through the Messiah, not destroying it.

Andyman_1970 said:

Notice in all those examples you cite who "leaves" the planet (think Jesus' parable of the wheat and the weeds) those who are God's covenant people remain on God's creation, and the evil ones are destroyed. No where are they removed from creation.

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If by 'God's covenant people' you mean Israel, then you'd be correct. Israel doesn't leave the planet. However, the church (a totally different entity) is removed.

The idea that this planet (God's creation) will rot while those that are His are taken away has it's root's in Gnosticism.......material=bad, spiritual=good........God is restoring His creation (all of it) through the Messiah, not destroying it.

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I have never studied Gnosticism but I can see what the problem is: If material is bad, then God created something bad and that would make God bad. However, I don't think 'material' is inherently bad. It was through the actions of Satan and Man that made it bad and now God has to scrap it. Have you heard of Entropy? It means that if God doesn't intervene, the universe will break down of its own accord. The only way to save it would be to rescue as many as possible and then start over again.

knownbeforetime said:

If by 'God's covenant people' you mean Israel, then you'd be correct. Israel doesn't leave the planet. However, the church (a totally different entity) is removed.

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So those who are in the Messiah are not God's covenenant people?

knownbeforetime said:

Have you heard of Entropy? It means that if God doesn't intervene, the universe will break down of its own accord. The only way to save it would be to rescue as many as possible and then start over again.

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So God is going to throw away His creation, that His word tells us is His and everything in it, and declares His glory?

The idea that Christians get to leave earth while it goes to Hell is a recent idea and has no basis in the tradition that either Jesus or Paul or any of the authors of the Scriptures (they were Jewish) came from.

Read The Jewish Wars by Josephus along with the book of Revelation and you'll see that the tribulation has already taken place in the late 60's and early 70's of the 1st century.............all that's left is for the Messiah to return and to restore His creation that He's holding together back to it's pre Genesis 3 state.

knownbeforetime said:

If by 'God's covenant people' you mean Israel, then you'd be correct. Israel doesn't leave the planet. However, the church (a totally different entity) is removed.

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How is the church a totally different entity? Scripture please.

Amazing how many people out there don't understand that The Bride of Christ is that very same "Daughter of Zion" spoken of as God's Betrothed. God is not unfaithful to His Chosen ones.

Do not mistake Judah for Israel.
Judah's capital is Jerusalem, and Israels capital is Samaria.
The Northern and Southern tribes divided in Solomon's time and Israel was scattered, while Judah, Levi, and Benjamin returned to rebuild the Temple after the Babylonian Captivity.

And because it was fond of Idolitry, and intermarriage with local pagan tribes, Israel was called a Gentile Nation in contrast to Faithful Judea.

Jesus sent his disciples out to gather those that were lost.
Israel.......His Bride.....

Proof?

Jeremiah 16:11-17
Then shalt thou say unto them, Because your fathers have forsaken me, saith the LORD, and have walked after other gods, and have served them, and have worshipped them, and have forsaken me, and have not kept my law; And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me: Therefore will I cast you out of this land into a land that ye know not, neither ye nor your fathers; and there shall ye serve other gods day and night; where I will not shew you favour. Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that it shall no more be said, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel out of the land of Egypt; But, The LORD liveth, that brought up the children of Israel from the land of the north, and from all the lands whither he had driven them: and I will bring them again into their land that I gave unto their fathers. Behold, I will send for many fishers, saith the LORD, and they shall fish them; and after will I send for many hunters, and they shall hunt them from every mountain, and from every hill, and out of the holes of the rocks. For mine eyes are upon all their ways: they are not hid from my face, neither is their iniquity hid from mine eyes.

Matthew 4:18-20
And Jesus, walking by the sea of Galilee, saw two brethren, Simon called Peter, and Andrew his brother, casting a net into the sea: for they were fishers. And he saith unto them, Follow me, and I will make you fishers of men. And they straightway left their nets, and followed him.

Matthew 10: 5 - 7
These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.

Why they were not sent into any city of Samaria or into the Gentile regions? These were areas familiar to Israel, and they were dispersed into a land not known by their fathers.

Clearly as lost sheep, the Church is the Spiritual Israel.

I always thought it was like this:



Acts 1:6-8 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his ownpower.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus sent them first to Judea and then to the rest of the Earth. The point is, they were sent.

Israel and the Church are different things. The entire Church will be rescued but Israel will be left behind. Only a remnant of Israel will be saved. I think Revelation puts it at 144,000.

knownbeforetime said:

I always thought it was like this:

Israel (Mary) --- God the Father
|
Jesus​

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knownbeforetime said:

If Jesus were to marry Israel, it would be incest! ​

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Really…………..the OT says that God is a lovers in search of a bride and uses language to describe His covenant people that way (which in the context of the OT was the Jews). So I don’t see how you go to the conclusion that Jesus “marrying” Israel would be incest……….not to mention the marriage imagery is symbolic, it’s not a literal man and and wife earthly marriage.

knownbeforetime said:

Acts 1:6-8 "When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, "Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?" And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his ownpower.
But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Jesus sent them first to Judea and then to the rest of the Earth. The point is, they were sent.

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I don’t see how this Text supports your position. You realize that when Jesus left He ushered in His kingdom where when through His people the Kingdom of God can be brought to earth here and now?

knownbeforetime said:

Israel and the Church are different things. The entire Church will be rescued but Israel will be left behind. Only a remnant of Israel will be saved. I think Revelation puts it at 144,000.

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If you think 144,000 is a literal number then I’d suggest you do some research into Jewish apocalyptic writing and the symbolism and imagery that is used, there are some parallel texts in the apocrypha that demonstrate this style.

I dont realy understand the rapture. After he flooded the world didnt he promise not to kill everyone again?

MercuryAndy said:

I dont realy understand the rapture. After he flooded the world didnt he promise not to kill everyone again?

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Not quite. He promised he wouldn't kill everyone again by a flood.

aww =(
how do we die in the rapture then?

Please notice the

wrath-of God,

during the great tribulation.

It's fierce.

Why shouldn't His wrath be fierce upon those cities?

After all:

They've just murdered the Christians,

and are worshipping the beast.

However, after

the 3.5 years of his rule,

Christ will return,

and 'gather' his elect.

RMathison said:

Please notice the

wrath-of God,

during the great tribulation.

It's fierce.

Why shouldn't His wrath be fierce upon those cities?

After all:

They've just murdered the Christians,

and are worshipping the beast.

However, after

the 3.5 years of his rule,

Christ will return,

and 'gather' his elect.

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rapture is scary =(

daverain said:

Do you believe:


Pre-trib,

Mid-trib,

or

Post-trib?


(Let the reader understand.)

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I did not vote on this...we are already living in the last days and I do not believe in the rapture because it is a false teaching and cannot be found in the Scriptures. Yes, I know 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 talks about the second coming of Christ, and I believe that for sure. I also believe that when Jesus comes back for us, that's it...world is over and Judgement Day will begin. Each and every one of us will have to give account to the Lord what we have said and what we have done. All I want to ask you all is this: "Are you really ready?"

I personally believe it's pretrib but I have to say that the Left Behind series may have had some effect on me. It just makes the most sense to me.

Israel --- God the Father

I get that from Hosea.

God impregnates Mary (an Israelite) and gives birth to Jesus (This also fulfills Genesis 3:15) who then is given the church as His bride.

Revelation 12 depicts "a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars". She is easily enough identified as Israel because of Genesis 37:9.

'Israel' is giving birth to a son who will "rule all nations with a rod of iron". The son is Christ because of Psalm 2:9 and Revelation 2:27.

What happens to Him? He is caught up to God. We as the Body of Christ will go with Him. Then, it's back to Israel who will flee to a place prepared for her.

Why would God choose to ignore 2,000 (so far) years of Church History? Because the Church is not the focus here, Israel is.

Israel: So God, how are you going to protect us during the tribulation?

God: Well, I'm going take your child to be with me and I'm going to send you to a very protected place.

It's the Noah syndrome all over again. The body is taken (like Enoch), Israel is protected through (like Noah and his family), and the unbelievers are punished.

Revelation 12: One of the many reasons it's not post-trib...