The puzzling silence of Paul

Robin Mauro · Nov 7, 2019

AvisG said:
The puzzle of Paul that I set forth above has been acknowledged and discussed by Christians since the early days. It is not an invention of the Jesus Myth movement. I just put a very simple search into Google (Paul + Jesus + silence). Here, from the first two pages of results, are FAITH-BASED sites that discuss this issue. If you or anyone else wishes to live in Perpetual Vacation Bible School, this is certainly your choice.
paul's failure to teach us about jesus
Eschaton Now: How to Explain Paul's Silence on Jesus?
Did Paul Write About Jesus as a Historical Person?
Jesus Tradition in Paul’s Letters
http://www.barriewilson.com/pdf/If-We-Only-Had-Paul.pdf
http://www.faithfutures.org/Jesus/Jesus_Paul.pdf

I have set forth the evolution of my beliefs in great detail immediately above. You obviously did not read my post. I am not answerable to you. Questioning whether I am a believer is contrary to the terms of service of this site as I understand them, and I'm going to let the Site Administrators review your post.

No, I did not. As I pointed out to you the first time you said this, what I said was that the Gospels astoundingly never mention the appearance to 500 witnesses at one time that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians. Deliberately mischaracterizing what I have stated, even after your mischaracterization has been pointed out once, is contrary to the terms of service of this site as I understand them, and I am going to let the Site Administrators review your post.

This is what I said - I believe rather clearly, as is my wont - in my first post: "On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus."

In the interests of strict accuracy, I should admit that this photo is almost two months old. I now favor a propeller beanie. I'm one of them there child prodigies.

On the other hand, to NOT be the "creator and leader" of one's own religion, at least in the sense that I describe in my very lengthy post above, inevitably places one in the position of pretending to believe and/or choosing to ignore things that are contrary to one's own experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition. This is simply impossible for me. "Bibliolatry" is to me one of the truly great puzzles. I see no reason to start with the unalterable axiom that the Bible is the infallible, inerrant Word of God in its entirety and then try to interpret all of my experiences, observations, studies, reflection and intuition on the basis of this axiom. For me, this is nothing but trying to pound a "round Reality" into a "square Bible" and a sure path to cognitive dissonance.

You have provided what you believe to be a satisfactory explanation for the "Paul puzzle." The fact that you have 'told" me your explanation does not mean that I am obligated to accept it or that the puzzle has been solved. The puzzle continues to puzzle sincere Christians, and various explanations have been offered (as you can quickly see from the links I posted above). I started this thread because the puzzle was only recently highlighted for me (in the HISTORICAL JESUS text I cite above) and I find interesting and worthy of discussion. Ditto for the non-reference in the Gospels to the Resurrection appearance to the 500 that Paul describes; rather a screaming and virtually inexplicable omission, it seems to me. If those whose Christianity stands on such a shaky foundation that they find discussions such as this disturbing, it seems to me that it's their obligation, not mine, to avoid such discussions.

I would like for it to affect your thinking in whatever way it affects your thinking. Why would I care how it affects anyone's thinking? I simply raised it as a point of discussion. Your second question simply makes no sense to me. How you would move from anything I have said here to the suggestion that "all we need to do is have the same knowledge and attitude of Paul to be saved" is an utter mystery to me. I would assume that anyone with the same knowledge and attitude of Paul would be a pretty enthusiastic Christian and possibly even the leader of his very own mega-church. What does this have to do with the simple and undeniable fact that Paul's epistles are virtually silent regarding the historical Jesus.

Paul is not silent on the "historical Jesus" ( that term being imvented by man). It is all the same Jesus. He believed in the same Jesus the apostles did. The four gospels are about Jesus' life, death, and resurrection - Paul took it from there. James didn't repeat these so-called historical matters either, nor did Jude, and so on. What of it? You are inventing a problem that does not exist.
I have never met a believer who would hesitate, even for a second to say they believe in Jesus, the lamb of God, the only savior of the world.
If you have read the entire Bible, you would understand there are many ommissions; a lot is packed into a tiny space, and what God considered important for us to know is in there.
The fact that Paul mentions 500 witnesses means very little. To me, it seems apparent that there were many witnesses, and needs not be spelled out.
I was in a Bible study once where the Pastor was kind of trying to let the pharisees ( sp?) off the hook (not the first pastor I've heard do this), saying they were learned, faithful, etc. about those who murdered our Lord Christ ( not that we all didn't. We all did because of our sin). I pointed out the scripture about others being raised when Christ was, to add to the vast evidence that they were without excuse; they not only knew Jesus was risen, they knew others were risen too.
No one in the Bible study had ever read these verses.
God leaves things ls out to challenge our faith, to prompt us to study, to entice us to search the scriptures; but most importantly, to read the Word for ourselves, so we don't miss these hidden jewels.
What you consider to be astounding ( the 500 witnesses Paul mentions) I find to be obvious, and barely worth noting.
And many things that we find difficult, are, in fact, very simply answered. Most difficulties arise from our own misinterpretations, such as ' no one has ascended to heaven but he who came down from heaven.' Many believe this proves no one is in heaven, yet. But what if our souls are eternal? What if many came to earth in bodily form from heaven? There are many things we do not know, that when we meet the Father face to face will be answered in less than a heart beat. If this is true, it would also explain Jesus calling some people sons of their father the devil. Maybe some people aren't really people, but demons in human form. We cannnot know for sure from here. We are not meant to know, yet, but one day we will. For now, we are called to believe, and to love our brothers and sisters as ourselves. Some scriptures say he will reconcile the whole world to himself. Does that include demons? I don't know. Can demons change, and be saved? I don't know. All I know for sure, for now, is Christ crucified, and Christ risen, for our sins. And I know, that is what matters. Paul knew that too, as well as all of the apostles.
I've noticed on this site there are many trolls; those who do not believe (even though they claimed they do in order to take part in these discussions), but are actually on here, to try to stir up trouble and harm people's faith. And when I thought about it, it became obvious; it made perfect sense. Of course there are. Would Satan leave a Christian Forum alone? Of course he wouldn't.
I am not saying that about you. I do not know you.
But I am also not surprised, in the least, that you refuse to say that Jesus is Lord, the lamb of God, the one and only savior of the world.
And, as for your threat, if I were kicked off this site, it would be nothing short of a blessing. "Let us go outside the camp..." because to tell you the truth, all the unbelievers on here, and those who just want to argue, stress me out, so I only come on this site in spurts anyway. Life is short, and the joy of the Lord is my strength. It is a beautiful California day, the sun is shining, the birds are singing, the whole earth speaks of God's glory. There are much better places to be than here.

packermann · Nov 7, 2019

timewerx said:
Have you read the chapter of 1 Corinthians 8 and 2 Corinthians 12:1-10?

I don't see those verses support your contention that we should seek an unutterable knowledge.

1 Cor 8 says "Knowledge (gnosis) puffeth up, but love edifieth." is what is wrong with Gnosticism. It is seeking this mystical knowledge as an end in itself. And what it does is lead to be puffed up with pride. The one who is "enlightened" feels he is superior to the mere initiates.

In Christianity, knowledge (gnosis) is never an end in itself, it is only a means to an end. The end is love.

If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.
I Corinthians 13:2

Friend, you can have all the inner, mystical knowledge (gnosis) there is, and if you do not have love you are nothing!

On judgement day, when our Lord separates the sheep from the goats, He is not going to say to anyone "Well done, my good and faithful servant. You received my special unutterable knowledge from my Holy Spirit. Enter into My Father's house." No, Christianityis more down to earth than that esoteric Gnosticism.

Jesus will judge us by whether we fed Him when He was hungry, whether we gave Him water when He was thirsty, whether we invited Him into our homes when He was a stranger, whether we took care of Him when He was sick. For whatever we do the least of all we do to Him. (Matthew 25:40-45). Pure and undefiled religion is not seek some mystical knowledge, it is caring for orphans and widows and keep yourself unstained from the world (James 1:27). So forget about experiencing unutterable mysteries of the Kingdom. Let's worry about that when we get there. If we occupy ourselves with this stuff now, and neglect loving God and loving our neighbor for the love of Him, we may find ourselves disqualified from ever entering His kingdom. God rewarded Paul with a glimpse of heaven. He rewarded him because of the love Paul had for Christ and others. He did not seek this mystical knowledge. He even tried to make it sound that someone he knew had this experience and not himself! He only sought to live for Christ. What matters to Paul was finishing the race.

I am too preoccupied about getting to heaven. I don't need any supernatural gifts. In fact, I pray that God will never give them to me. I want no heavenly apparitions. I do not want the gift of prophesy. And I certainly do not want some special mystical knowledge. I could not handle it. It would all go to my head, I would be puffed up with pride - just like it did to Lucifer. Reluctantly, I would have to accept them if it is God's will. But hopefully that will never happen.

timewerx · Nov 7, 2019

packermann said:
In Christianity, knowledge (gnosis) is never an end in itself, it is only a means to an end. The end is love.

But you can't love without Truth.

1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Truth:

225 alḗtheia (from 227 /alēthḗs, "true to fact") – properly, truth (true to fact), reality.

[In ancient Greek culture, 225 (alḗtheia) was synonymous for "reality" as the opposite of illusion, i.e. fact.]

You can't have facts straight with little or insufficient knowledge.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 7, 2019

Gideons300 said:
God has made many mind blowing promises to us. Not for the sweet bye and bye but NOW.

Like having /being brain washed - at least we might know who washes it !
And yes, "the promises of God are all yeah and amen in Christ Jesus" .... and the conditions He States Clearly are STILL IGNORED..... yet the promises claimed (and not received, or worse, received then judgment dealt (I think- this maybe to be looked at later another time) ).... what is to happen then...?

Robin Mauro · Nov 8, 2019

timewerx said:
But you can't love without Truth.

1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Truth:

225 alḗtheia (from 227 /alēthḗs, "true to fact") – properly, truth (true to fact), reality.

[In ancient Greek culture, 225 (alḗtheia) was synonymous for "reality" as the opposite of illusion, i.e. fact.]

You can't have facts straight with little or insufficient knowledge.

What is your point? The Bible is not insuffcient. 'Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
What Packerman said was beautiful and true. Are you arguing just to argue? That is not love or truth.

timewerx · Nov 8, 2019

Robin Mauro said:
What is your point? The Bible is not insuffcient. 'Knowledge puffs up, but love builds up."
What Packerman said was beautiful and true. Are you arguing just to argue? That is not love or truth.

I'm just surprised many seem to dislike the notion of seeking knowledge when the Bible says otherwise:

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

yeshuaslavejeff · Nov 8, 2019

timewerx said:
I'm just surprised many seem to dislike the notion of seeking knowledge when the Bible says otherwise:

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Knowledge increaseth, along with wickedness throughout all the world.

TRUE knowledge, experiential knowledge (personal daily experience) with Yahushua Messiah is rare.

Knowledge of medicine has resulted in more deaths - the highest death rate ever is almost all because of medicine in the usa that is. (per ama and fda official websites/ statistics for the last 8 decades or so).
Truth and True Knowledge of health results in prevention of disease and lower death rate.

Worldly knowledge and practice in society / governments/ etc results in more disease and more death and more strife and more destruction.

Robin Mauro · Nov 8, 2019

timewerx said:
I'm just surprised many seem to dislike the notion of seeking knowledge when the Bible says otherwise:

Hosea 4:6
my people are destroyed from lack of knowledge. "Because you have rejected knowledge, I also reject you as my priests; because you have ignored the law of your God, I also will ignore your children.

Agreed, but in the context of this thread, which is questioning why or why not Paul wrote this or that, knowledge puffs up. Love is what matters... And trusting Him, as a child trusts.

packermann · Nov 8, 2019

timewerx said:
But you can't love without Truth.

1 John 3:18
Dear children, let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth.

Truth:

225 alḗtheia (from 227 /alēthḗs, "true to fact") – properly, truth (true to fact), reality.

[In ancient Greek culture, 225 (alḗtheia) was synonymous for "reality" as the opposite of illusion, i.e. fact.]

You can't have facts straight with little or insufficient knowledge.

But the knowledge that you are talking about is a non-utterable, non-propositional, mystical knowledge. That is not really no knowledge about truth, but a feeling about truth.

I agree that we must be lovers of truth, but a peasant who knows a few spiritual truths and applies it in his everyday life is more pleasing to God that one who fully knows the Bible but does not apply it to his life. That is why Isaiah 66:2 says that God is pleased with one who is humble and trembles at His Word. His Word is a two-edged word. It can heal but it can also bring about our condemnation. The more we read the Bible and do not apply it our lives, the more we are without excuse. That is why we should not know too much, unless we are prepared to obey. To him much is given, much is required. (Luke 12:48). The more truth God gives us, the God required to act upon the truth. God's Word should never be treated as a mere curiosity.

Our hearts also become more hardened the more we know and not act upon it. We become desensitized. The best posture in reading the Bible is on our knees (unfortunately, I am not able to do this physically). And this is what the Holy Spirit reveals to us, through our prayers, not some mystical knowledge apart from God's revelation, but instead, He takes it the revelation and makes it part of us. We internalize the Word. We are transformed by the renewing of our minds. But if His Word does not change us then by this Word we will be condemned.

And one of great truths is that truth is not an end in itself. It leads us to God. It leads us to loving God and others. If the truth of His Word does not bear this fruit in us then we are nothing.

ewq1938 · Nov 8, 2019

AvisG said:
I plainly said that the appearance to the 500 that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians isn't mentioned in any of the Gospels

I am merely highlighting Paul's silence and a couple of other undeniable realities as "puzzles" that I find interesting and worth thinking about.

Do you reject that Paul was a true Apostle of Christ? Do you think the appearance to the 500 that Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians was made up by Paul?

nikolai_42 · Nov 10, 2019

Hi,

I hope I can make a couple of passing comments - I only have a short time to respond but hope to be able to come back to this later. Your post is interesting.

AvisG said:
The way the NT is organized, it's quite easy to be lulled into thinking that Paul was writing his epistles against the backdrop of the four Gospels. This is, of course, wildly incorrect. Paul wrote long before the Gospels were written and indeed died long before they were written (i.e., he is believed to have died in 62 AD vs. sometime after 70 AD as an early date for Mark, while some of the epistles are much earlier).

Yet Paul scarcely even mentions the historical Jesus. There is no mention of the Virgin Birth, Mary, the teachings and parables, the miracles or anything else that is central to the Gospels. (Paul does, of course, emphasize the Resurrection, but he doesn't mention the empty tomb.) On the other hand, the Resurrection appearance to more than 500, which Paul mentions in 1 Corinthians, is never mentioned in the Gospels - an extremely odd omission that I find as puzzling as Paul's omission of the historical Jesus.

It's believed that the Gospels arose out of eyewitness accounts, a carefully preserved oral tradition, and one or more "sayings" documents such as Q. Hence, the Gospel material was certainly available when Paul was writing, but he never mentions it.

It can be argued that Paul had other concerns, but this isn't really true. He repeatedly addresses hot-button issues in the churches and gives direction on Christian living to which Jesus' parables and teachings would have been directly relevant, yet he never mentions those teachings.

I recently did a study of just how tiny Judea was in Jesus' time. To give an idea, the entire territory of modern Israel, including the disputed territories, is approximately the same size as the Phoenix (Arizona) Metropolitan Area or the state of New Hampshire. The population of Jerusalem in Jesus' time is estimated at 60,000 to 80,000 with Judea estimated at 200,000 to 300,000 (these figures are scholarly estimates and there are estimates that are fantastically higher, but these are mainstream estimates). In any event, Jesus operated in quite a small area with quite a small population.

Does it seem plausible that, in an area of this size, an individual doing the things Jesus is described in the Gospels as having done would not have achieved FAR greater notice during His lifetime? Does it seem plausible that the Gospels would be almost entirely silent regarding the 30 or so years of His existence before He burst on the scene? Does it seem plausible that the Roman and Jewish historical records would barely even take notice of Him?

I will respond with something with something you no doubt are already well aware of. In the Middle East of 2000 years ago, people did NOT get around much relative to us today. I don't have numbers but I know for certain that people were more or less fixed in where they lived and where they circulated. So not only was there no daily news, radio report or internet, but people just didn't get far away from home much. So when I read this, it underscores to me that one of the things you are suggesting (that news should have travelled faster) is not necessarily entirely accurate :

And there were certain Greeks among them that came up to worship at the feast:
The same came therefore to Philip, which was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and desired him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus.
Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: and again Andrew and Philip tell Jesus.
And Jesus answered them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified.
John 12:20-23

I read Jesus here realizing that His message had gotten out beyond the borders of where Judah was (by enlarge) dwelling at the time. And since He had said He came only to the lost sheep of the House of Israel (Matthew 15:24), He knew that the sign that Greeks were coming to Him indicated that the message had spread (I know I'm only speaking naturally here - I'm sure He had some greater understanding of what was going on as the Incarnation). Because, you will remember, Jesus told people repeatedly not to tell anyone when they were healed, I take it that He was doing whatever He could to buy as much time as possible (again, that's a natural perspective - supernaturally, I don't know that things could have been other than they were). Maybe the message even did make it out of Jerusalem and Judea earlier - but would it have been believed? The Pharisees wouldn't have done anything to spread the news. And with people being told by both Jesus and the leaders to not say anything, I think it is very reasonable that the news of Christ was slow to spread. At least while He was on earth.

AvisG said:
I see no plausible way to explain these things except to conclude that Jesus' ministry was most likely far more localized and obscure than the Gospels suggest and that it was the Resurrection that caused a certain degree of "mythologizing" to develop around the historical figure He actually had been. This is why I always take the position that Christianity stands or falls with the Resurrection and pretty much NOTHING else.

For the reasons I gave, I think things didn't travel as fast as we might assume. And while the church would have grown quickly after His ascension, those Paul was addressing wouldn't have had the message of Christ as a backdrop like the Jews would have. Paul no doubt told the Gentiles of Christ, but as an apostle he was developing teaching for the Gentile church rather than the Jews. He wasn't trying to lay on another's foundation (and even Peter alludes to him in his letter talking about things hard to be understood). He was talking to a different audience with a different background in an age that - as you point out - had only our Old Testament for the scriptures. But Paul could expertly reason from them (Romans being a standout example).

AvisG said:
I don't believe that honestly addressing puzzles such as this is in any way heretical or blasphemous or even something God would discourage. Even the question as to whether Jesus existed at all is a perfectly legitimate one; the vast, vast majority of scholars, including secular scholars, believe that He did. On the other hand, I don't believe there is anything particularly pious, faithful or pleasing to God about pretending these puzzles don't exist or trying to explain them away with glib and facile "explanations" that really don't fit the facts.

Would love to add more but have to run...

Joy · Nov 14, 2019

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Challenging Paul's position as an Apostle of Jesus Christ who (although not one of the original twelve) was sent forth by Christ after his conversion [Acts 9:15-16], or arguing against the inclusion of Paul's writings in the New Testament canon, is not allowed in any "Christians Only" forums (including the Controversial Christian Theology forum). You may disagree on the interpretation and application of his writings, but not their place as canon or Paul as an inspired author of Scripture.

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The puzzling silence of Paul

Robin Mauro

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packermann

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timewerx

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yeshuaslavejeff

simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua

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Robin Mauro

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timewerx

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yeshuaslavejeff

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Robin Mauro

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nikolai_42

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Joy

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