The Purpose of Going to Church

[ClementofRome]

This thread is to discuss what started over in the "My church is going liberal..." thread between CoffeeSwirls and Knight and myself. Please join in. It started with this:


Originally Posted by: CoffeeSwirls
The primary reason to go to church is to receive, not to give.


Originally Posted by: Knight
While I normally agree with you on most everything I believe you are wrong on this statement. At least in the absolute sense. We should serve each other in the church.


Originally posted by ClementofRome:
I must humbly disagree with both of you. The primary reason to go to church is to worship...that means that whatever we receive ...or serve ...or are served must take a back seat to worshipping our great God. These other things are results of true and proper worship.


This was followed by CoffeeSwirls comment:
It has been a while since I studied this topic, and many of my ideas were shaped in a John Piper mold, as "Desiring God" was the first meaty book that I ever read. In fact, that book convinced me that calvinism is correct and the most loving doctrine out there.

In the worship chapter, Piper discusses several points, most notably for this topic is the matter of Jesus in Mary and Martha's home. (Luke 10:38-42) If you recall, Martha was working in the kitchen, making sure that everything was "just so" while Mary was sitting at Jesus' feet, receiving his teaching. One was trying to be the benefactor of Jesus, the other was the beneficiary. One was there to receive and the other to give.

Again, I haven't read that book in a while, but I do recall Piper pointing out that even as we serve each other we receive the blessings of our God, who delights to reward those who are faithful to Him. So whether you are listening to a sermon or are delivering it, you receive the blessings of God. God is always the benefactor.
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CoffeeSwirls,
You bring up an interesting point with respect to Piper...I am sure that Piper would say that the purpose of our worship is to bring pleasure to ourselves, thus bringing glory to God.

I am a huge fan of Piper's militant Calvinism, but I an not a fan of his "Christian Hedonism." I think that he twists the answer to Question #1 of the Shorter Catechism which says that man's chief end is "to glorify God and enjoy him forever." I think that Piper puts a questionable emphasis on "enjoying" and not enough emphasis on "glorifying."

So with respect to the purpose of going to church, I would say that glorifying through worship is the purpose of going to church and that our edification and enjoyment of God are blessings that proceed forth from the worship and glorifiying.

I don't think that I am splitting hairs with this, but maybe I am.

 

[Knight]

Please see my correction on the previous thread.

I agree that worship is what the weekly service is primarily for. Though there are other reasons, this is paramount.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Nehemiah 8:10
Then he said to them, “Go your way. Eat the fat and drink sweet wine and send portions to anyone who has nothing ready, for this day is holy to our Lord. And do not be grieved, for the joy of the Lord is your strength.”

The catechism says that the chief end of man is to glorify God and to enjoy him forever. If we can agree that we will both enjoy him and also glorify him throughout eternity, why do the two verbs need to be separated? What is so contrary to enjoying him BY glorifying him forever?

If God is the fount of joy, ought we not drink from it as deeply as we are able? If he has provided every good thing for us, don't we glorify him in our appreciation of these things with him as the benefactor? If pleasures forevermore can describe our true home, are we right to deny ourselves any joy in this life that pleases God? Even Christ endured the cross for the joy set before him.

I realize that any definition of worship that includes the enjoyment of man as a foundational statement will raise a few hairs on the back of your neck. It raised mine as well. But then I realized that God doesn't desire worship that doesn't engage the heart of man. If we were to learn all that we can about him and just take our notes and recite what he has done for us without a deep sense of gratitude and joy, what kind of worship is that? Why would God even bother to change the hearts of those he has chosen?

To paraphrase Piper, it's like a man who asks his wife if he must kiss her and she replies, "Yes you must, but not that kind of must." If we do not enjoy our time of worship, I can only conclude we do not glorify God. These two things are intertwined such that I am convinced that it would be correct to state the first answer of the catechism as Piper puts it. No, I haven't read Calvin's Institutes, but from what I have seen, I find it hard to believe that he would object to a belief that our joy is to be found in God and that we should express it back to him.

I do want to clarify that a group gathering for worship should be conducted in an orderly manner. (1 Corinthians 14:33) Orderly should not be the same thing as stuffy and unresonating, though. Let our joy be found in God alone and not in the way we worship Him, lest we fall into idolatry. Let our passion be single and our praise be reserved for God and let us cry out to him in song and prayer and the joyous teaching of his word for the sake of his name.

 

[Knight]

There is an important line to be drawn here that I am sure Piper would agree with. We are to glorify God in worship. And there is nothing wrong with enjoying this. However, the principal aim must be for His glory and not our pleasure. Meaning, we do not glorify God in order to get pleasure. We glorify Him because He is.

This is not to say that recieving pleasure from worship is wrong.

I have not read Piper's book. (It's on the shelf but I haven't gotten to it yet.)

 

[AndOne]

I have not read Piper's book. (It's on the shelf but I haven't gotten to it yet.)

Just jumping in here real quick - as I have been reading these posts with some interest.

I highly recommend the book being discussed: Desiring God. I have had my ups and downs with Piper since discovering him - but after much research and study I must admit that he is one of the most solid Reformed Preachers/Teachers of our time. I don't agree with everything he teaches - but man, one thing no one can deny is that this guy knows his stuff!

Desiring God is very solid and sound thelogically. It's one of the few books that I have on my "re-read list." It goes hand-in-hand with what you all are talking about here. One thing I like about Piper is that he is very meticulous about backing up what he says with scripture.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Knight,
You will want to spend some time in DG to fully appreciate it. It's no coffee table book! The first chapter, "The Happiness of God" if I'm not mistaken, sets the groundwork for the entire book. A saying from the book is that God is most glorified in me when I am most satisfied in Him. I am a fan of the Green Bay Packers, have been for years even before they were any good. When they won the Superbowl against the Patriots a few years ago... ok, several years ago... my joy in thier victory would have been incomplete if I hadn't been cheering them on. Were they any greater because of my cheers at a television set? Not at all.

The same carries over to God. I delight in all that He does and all that He is. If I were to tabulate the data of what has been revealed to us and note that Christ has taken the penalty for my sins with a half-hearted sigh, would that glorify God? Worship should prompt one to learn more theology, which should inspire deeper worship. We should continually be hungry for more and more joy from the fount of joy. If God is infinately greater than a football game, shouldn't my delight in Him be greater to that same degree?

And if the doxology is correct, "Praise God from whom all blessings flow," is it correct not to long for God, the source (benefactor) of all blessings, including joy? If you take the emotion out of worship, you are selling God short. Again, I am not implying that the person who makes the largest spectacle of themself is the most fervant worshiper, I'm just saying that the person who best understands the T in the TULIP is the one who acknowledges the most their need for a redeemer and delights the greatest when their greatest desire is fulfilled. The person has come to receive, not to give, and the Father is the one who gives the greatest blessing to us in the broken body of His son.

Also, when we acknowledge that only unclean things can come of our depraved nature, we rely on the grace of God to supply the good works laid before us. We act as a conduit of grace to the world not unlike the covenant given to Abram. (Genesis 22:18) Even as we receive the (common) grace of God we are to distribute this inexhaustable store to all around us with the faith that this store will not empty. This is done that the world may take note and glorify the Father. (Matthew 5:16) If we worshiped that we may serve God, that would imply that our Father needed our worship that his name be exalted.

Yes, DG is one book that quite literally turned my world upside down. I went through some uncomfortable times understanding what Piper was getting at, and I ended up reading that first chapter a few times to maintain my point of reference. God seeks His own glory, first and formost. The very fact that he predestined us to be recipiants in his eternal plan is a pride-shattering truth for which I am forever grateful. If you want more info on this, Piper's resources are available at http://www.desiringgod.org You may also appreciate Sam Storms at http://enjoyinggodministries.com

 

[ClementofRome]

That was a great post CoffeeSwirls. What I know of Piper is from the Internet and second hand. I will get that book and read it as soon as possible. Thanks.

 

[Knight]

Coffee,

I am not saying you are wrong. All I am saying is that our own pleasure should not be our primary purpose in the worship of God. (Which is what has been implied.) We should and can delight in all His works and glory but this pleasure is secondary.

This may well be a good book and I will get around to it when I can. I am a fan of Piper's work.
Besides, I thought this thread was to discuss our views and opinions. The fact that I have not read this book should make no difference.

 

[ClementofRome]

Besides, I thought this thread was to discuss our views and opinions. The fact that I have not read this book should make no difference.

Ah, and it is. I am in agreement with you Knight in that my satisfaction cannot possibly be primary. I am also in agreement that our own satisfaction will result from proper worship.

My problem with self-satisfaction/pleasure/enjoyment thing is that often-times I am not of a mind to seek this in worship. I am seeking to humble myself before the throne of grace and am in fact prostrating myself before God (not literally, cause if I did, folks would really get nervous). The way that I "feel" seems to me to be irrelevant to the issue of my proper worship. On the other hand, if I do receive pleasure or satisfaction from God because of my worship....then so be it.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

I too am in agreement that you don't have to have read DG to follow along in this thread. As you look through the commands in the Bible (I believe there are no suggestions, only the will of God) note how often we are shown an incentive to do what God bids us to do. Christian Hedonism (it is a controversial term, I agree) demands that we never stop seeking every one of these incentives by showing humble obedience to God.

Psalm 145:18-20
The Lord is near to all who call on him,
to all who call on him in truth.
He fulfills the desire of those who fear him;
he also hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord preserves all who love him,
but all the wicked he will destroy.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

We are to make the Lord our delight. I mentioned earlier that I don't see any suggestions in the Bible. Thus, man is required to delight in God. Not in his works or what we can get out of the deal. We are required to delight ourselves in Him. In doing so, our will is no longer seeking the things of the world, but a better promise. A promise that will last. Does this make us mercenary? Not at all. A mercenary cares not for the cause in which he fights. We are called to proclaim the gospel and to be a soldier, fighting for the cause of He who enlists us. We set our sights on God as we do our good works, performing service not for the person we are helping, but for our Father who will reward us in Heaven.

I may not convince you of any of this, and that won't change the respect I have for both of you. I'd like you to read the book, not to prove me right, but so you may perhaps be blessed by it.

When missionaries leave all the comforts of home, squander in a mud hut for their prime years of life and return, saying they never missed a thing, you can be assured that they sought a joy the entire time. It is the joy of obedient worship of God through their lives. It is the depriving oneself of a worldly comfort for the promise of a godly reward. It is a concept that has really driven my own Bible study and helped conform my life to the one God has laid out in his word more closely. As I turn my back on another sin, I know that I am turning toward the greatest joy, a treasure that neither moth nor rust will destroy.

There is always an incentive to obey God. It may be the avoidance of discipline or the promise of reward. If seeking the reward were not important, the concept wouldn't be found throughout the Bible. If there were no incentive, we would be drones or mercenaries, not children of God who longs to lavish us with every good thing.

 

[Knight]

Ah, and it is. I am in agreement with you Knight in that my satisfaction cannot possibly be primary. I am also in agreement that our own satisfaction will result from proper worship.

My problem with self-satisfaction/pleasure/enjoyment thing is that often-times I am not of a mind to seek this in worship. I am seeking to humble myself before the throne of grace and am in fact prostrating myself before God (not literally, cause if I did, folks would really get nervous). The way that I "feel" seems to me to be irrelevant to the issue of my proper worship. On the other hand, if I do receive pleasure or satisfaction from God because of my worship....then so be it.

It appears we are in agrement....

 

[Knight]

"What we have here is a failure to communicate..."

I too am in agreement that you don't have to have read DG to follow along in this thread. As you look through the commands in the Bible (I believe there are no suggestions, only the will of God) note how often we are shown an incentive to do what God bids us to do. Christian Hedonism (it is a controversial term, I agree) demands that we never stop seeking every one of these incentives by showing humble obedience to God.


Psalm 145:18-20
The Lord is near to all who call on him,
to all who call on him in truth.
He fulfills the desire of those who fear him;
he also hears their cry and saves them.
The Lord preserves all who love him,
but all the wicked he will destroy.

Psalm 37:4
Delight yourself in the Lord, and he will give you the desires of your heart.

Delighting in God and considering that delight as the purpose for worship are two very different things. I do not believe that you are espousing the idea that our pleasure is in and of itself the purpose of worship. However, the idea has been implied. This is what I want to clarify.

We are to make the Lord our delight. I mentioned earlier that I don't see any suggestions in the Bible. Thus, man is required to delight in God. Not in his works or what we can get out of the deal. We are required to delight ourselves in Him. In doing so, our will is no longer seeking the things of the world, but a better promise. A promise that will last. Does this make us mercenary? Not at all. A mercenary cares not for the cause in which he fights. We are called to proclaim the gospel and to be a soldier, fighting for the cause of He who enlists us. We set our sights on God as we do our good works, performing service not for the person we are helping, but for our Father who will reward us in Heaven.

See, this makes all the difference. I agree with this.
It is important not to confuse the joy of the Lord with simple carnal pleasure. The joy that we have in Christ is much more fulfilling than simple pleasure and is far, far deeper.

I may not convince you of any of this, and that won't change the respect I have for both of you. I'd like you to read the book, not to prove me right, but so you may perhaps be blessed by it.

As I said, we are in agreement. There is no convincing necessary. I will likely read this book eventually but I have other things right now taking my time. (My 2-year-old daughter, my MBA course, A Bible study on Soiterology, and research into Godly leadership.)

When missionaries leave all the comforts of home, squander in a mud hut for their prime years of life and return, saying they never missed a thing, you can be assured that they sought a joy the entire time. It is the joy of obedient worship of God through their lives. It is the depriving oneself of a worldly comfort for the promise of a godly reward. It is a concept that has really driven my own Bible study and helped conform my life to the one God has laid out in his word more closely. As I turn my back on another sin, I know that I am turning toward the greatest joy, a treasure that neither moth nor rust will destroy.

Yes. The motivation for all of this must first come from a desire to obey Christ and fulfill His calling for your life.

There is always an incentive to obey God. It may be the avoidance of discipline or the promise of reward. If seeking the reward were not important, the concept wouldn't be found throughout the Bible. If there were no incentive, we would be drones or mercenaries, not children of God who longs to lavish us with every good thing.

It is important here to make sure that it is understood that the reward may not come in this life or may not be physical in nature.

I do not disagree with you on any of this. I only want to make sure that the principal reason for worshipping God does not stem from a desire to get pleasure but from a desire to glorify Christ. Even enjoying Him should stem from a desire to glorify Him. This is why we become "Christian Hedonists" to glorify Him.

When all is said and done there is nothing more significant or lasting than God's glory. In the beginning that is all there was and in the end that is all there will be.

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

You said it with more restraint than I have, Knight. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve a bit, and that can be a source of miscommunication. From what I have seen, we are all in agreement but I am viewing things from a different angle than you. I agree that we work for the reward in Heaven and I agree that any reward on this world will be but a foretaste of the one that will never end.

It is great to look through this thread and see a bunch of Christians (Calvinists no less!) who are able to discuss different viewpoints without slaughtering each other. Too many examples can be found of Christians who are more interested in tearing down a wall that is painted the wrong hue of their favorite color and not enough examples of Christians who will show the other person their own wall to see if a different hue will better the room. Conversations in SR are usually very edifying and for that I thank you guys, as well as the other regulars to be found.

By the way, there is no other shoe to be dropped here. I don't want to set up a slam on you with this praise and don't have one even if that was my intent. Through men like Piper, my love for God has been transformed from one that desires the gifts of God to one that desires God. It's akin to keeping the first and second greatest commandment in their proper places.

I love you guys!

 

[ClementofRome]

Group hug!

Now, the question is....how do I go about "enjoying" the 11:00AM "worship hour" even more?

More to follow, I just realized that I have got to run to a meeting.

Blessings....I am enjoying this interaction very much.

 

[Knight]

You said it with more restraint than I have, Knight. I tend to wear my heart on my sleeve a bit, and that can be a source of miscommunication. From what I have seen, we are all in agreement but I am viewing things from a different angle than you. I agree that we work for the reward in Heaven and I agree that any reward on this world will be but a foretaste of the one that will never end.

Yes. Absolutely. I don't see that different of an angle here....

It is great to look through this thread and see a bunch of Christians (Calvinists no less!) who are able to discuss different viewpoints without slaughtering each other. Too many examples can be found of Christians who are more interested in tearing down a wall that is painted the wrong hue of their favorite color and not enough examples of Christians who will show the other person their own wall to see if a different hue will better the room. Conversations in SR are usually very edifying and for that I thank you guys, as well as the other regulars to be found.

Darn it, now I'm going to get all misty.....

By the way, there is no other shoe to be dropped here. I don't want to set up a slam on you with this praise and don't have one even if that was my intent. Through men like Piper, my love for God has been transformed from one that desires the gifts of God to one that desires God. It's akin to keeping the first and second greatest commandment in their proper places.

I love you guys!

Don't go getting all emotional on me. I'm living witha pregnant woman and have all the mood swings I can handle.....

(I got hit for that one..... "I love my wife.....")

 

[CoffeeSwirls]

Oof! I'll take that shot to the arm for you. Not to get off topic, but is this your first? If so, take it from me: During the delivery of your child, it is usually not a good idea to see what the time is. I still remember the evil sounding voice that demanded that I look directly into my wife's eyes. (I got a punch of my own coming for this one!)

 

[Knight]

Oof! I'll take that shot to the arm for you. Not to get off topic, but is this your first? If so, take it from me: During the delivery of your child, it is usually not a good idea to see what the time is. I still remember the evil sounding voice that demanded that I look directly into my wife's eyes. (I got a punch of my own coming for this one!)

It's our second but thanks for the advice.

The first time my wife was way too out of it to even notice I was ther much less what I was doing.