The Purpose Driven Life

Grace_Alone4gives · Mar 14, 2005

I guess I'm in a weird place as I would actually like to see out church get involved int his... (granted, I am on the fence with calvinism, even though my denomination is Reformed...call be confused).

HOWEVER, if it is a study about money and numbers, that is a concern. (although our church could use the numbers quite honestly as a church spit a few years back took half of our congregation......deleiverance ministries do more harm than good....ugh).

Imblessed · Mar 14, 2005

CoffeeSwirls said:
I would start by telling your pastor that you support him in leading the church, just as God expects him to. If he asks what you mean, tell him that he is compitant enough not to need the instruction of Rick Warren. He is YOUR pastor, Warren isn't. God placed HIM in YOUR pulpit, not Warren. Also, I would let him know that you are interested in a mini-series of expository preaching. http://www.9marks.org has a great writeup about that, including the why's, how's and all the other facts.

Our church has, just this year, moved from topical to expository preaching, and I can say that the sermons are more powerful when the word of God leads the pastor's sermons, rather than the pastor picking and choosing verses that he likes to support his points.

But to summarize my advice for you, I'd reassure the pastor that you are confidant that the Lord can lead him toward a preaching style and a method of preaching that God desires for His church. The PDL movement is all about the numbers, and many pastors look at the attendence or the collection to determine their success. However, the Bible says that the way is narrow and tells us that the love of money is the root of all evil.

"...all Christians should stand up and tell it like they see it. Let the chips fall where they will. Don't worry if the public doesn't even agree with your most basic assumptions. Your job is not to win. Your job is not to control this society. Your job is to say what God wants said." - John Piper

This sounds exactly like what our pastor does. His subject matter and such are planned up to a year in advance. He then lets the worship leaders know what he's doing the series on so they can plan the music accordingly(they need quite a bit of time to prepare the music--any solos, special songs, etc). Like right now, if I were to ask, he'd know what he would be speaking on in September! Actually they are going to be doing a study on Revelation toward the end of this year-it was mentioned just this past weekend!

CoffeeSwirls · Mar 14, 2005

A study in Revelation beats a series of "How to be healthy wealthy and wise" any day. The secular world gives us enough education on that. Making diciples of people is not the same thing as spoon feeding them a secular agenda with a verse here and there. It is training them to study the word and to look upon every facet of their lives as a form of worship.

Grace_Alone4gives · Mar 14, 2005

Wow - accurate or not, God can surely use PDL for His glory. My MIL just pointedme to this CCN story, ver touvhing.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/index.html

brightlights · Mar 15, 2005

Grace_Alone4gives said:
Wow - accurate or not, God can surely use PDL for His glory. My MIL just pointedme to this CCN story, ver touvhing.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/03/14/smith.transcript/index.html

Indeed. God can use anything for his glory.

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Mar 16, 2005

brightlights said:
Indeed. God can use anything for his glory.

I haven't look at the link, but I imagine that this is about the escaped killer in Atlanta who gave up after his hostage witnessed to him for 7 hours. Yes, God is indeed very, very powerful. That struck me very close because of some of the judgemental things I said before I thought this over. Just another example of the power of God. We can look at someone like this and say, "its over, this guys never going to repent and believe." God just shows us the power of His mercy and love by converting someone the world at large would give up on. What a powerful witness that woman has given to God's glory.

Beoga · Mar 16, 2005

gosh, that is 80+ days i wish i had back
(read it once for personal reading, kind of went through it with my former church, and then i had to read it for a leadership group i was in for the church i now attend)

Lutherrunner · Mar 16, 2005

Wilfred of Ivanhoe said:
I haven't look at the link, but I imagine that this is about the escaped killer in Atlanta who gave up after his hostage witnessed to him for 7 hours. Yes, God is indeed very, very powerful. That struck me very close because of some of the judgemental things I said before I thought this over. Just another example of the power of God. We can look at someone like this and say, "its over, this guys never going to repent and believe." God just shows us the power of His mercy and love by converting someone the world at large would give up on. What a powerful witness that woman has given to God's glory.

That was a very interesting story, but I don't think it's any cause to start worshipping Rick Warren or putting his book up on the pulpit next to the bible....

Wilfred of Ivanhoe · Mar 16, 2005

Lutherrunner said:
That was a very interesting story, but I don't think it's any cause to start worshipping Rick Warren or putting his book up on the pulpit next to the bible....

My point was not in defense of PDL, but rather I am acknowledging God's power and glory.

Dmckay · Mar 16, 2005

Behe's Boy said:
I think Rick Warren has missed the mark. God did not save us to give us purpose. He saved us so that we could glorify Him.

Worship is not one point out of five for the purpose driven life. It is the point.

Would that this was the only problem with the Purpose Driven Life. I wasted several hours reading through this in order to give my opinion to several younger Pastors who had asked my opinion. I would sure like that time back.

For those of you thinking of reading this book I would highly recommend that you go to this link and read this review before you waste your time. http://www.aomin.org/PDL.html

Lockheed · Mar 16, 2005

Dmckay said:
Would that this was the only problem with the Purpose Driven Life. I wasted several hours reading through this in order to give my opinion to several younger Pastors who had asked my opinion. I would sure like that time back.

For those of you thinking of reading this book I would highly recommend that you go to this link and read this review before you waste your time. http://www.aomin.org/PDL.html

LOL That's the second time Casey's paper's been mentioned here. You ought to meet the guy, he's a really great fellow.

All these things (PDL, Alpha Course, etc) are fads, and will fade away once a new fad comes along. Anyone who has been part of the evangelical scene for long can tell you these things are a dime a dozen. Remember "Prayer of Jabez"? How about "I found it!" do you remember that one? (Showing my age now.)

Like fad diets, if they worked why do they eventually fade?

What these things do for use who understand the doctrines of Grace and the nature of the Gospel is to show us the stark contrast between the Arminian 'gospel' and that which Spurgeon called "a nickname for the gospel".

The Arminians have to keep adjusting their 'gospel' to suit the newest generation. They've gone from slide shows to powerpoint presentations to full-blown video productions. They've ditched the piano and got a rock band that sings "God is everything! God is everything!" over and over. All these things are designed to suit the tastes of and attrack those from a culture of death. (Not that Christians can't like some rock music, but there is a time for everything.)

Here's some good resources:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the_white_horse_inn/

The WHI recently offered a download of their chat with Robert Schuller (yikes!) and it was interesting how much Warren sounds like him except with more 'xian' words thrown in.

Dmckay · Mar 16, 2005

Lockheed said:
LOL That's the second time Casey's paper's been mentioned here. You ought to meet the guy, he's a really great fellow.

All these things (PDL, Alpha Course, etc) are fads, and will fade away once a new fad comes along. Anyone who has been part of the evangelical scene for long can tell you these things are a dime a dozen. Remember "Prayer of Jabez"? How about "I found it!" do you remember that one? (Showing my age now.)

Like fad diets, if they worked why do they eventually fade?

What these things do for use who understand the doctrines of Grace and the nature of the Gospel is to show us the stark contrast between the Arminian 'gospel' and that which Spurgeon called "a nickname for the gospel".

The Arminians have to keep adjusting their 'gospel' to suit the newest generation. They've gone from slide shows to powerpoint presentations to full-blown video productions. They've ditched the piano and got a rock band that sings "God is everything! God is everything!" over and over. All these things are designed to suit the tastes of and attrack those from a culture of death. (Not that Christians can't like some rock music, but there is a time for everything.)

Here's some good resources:

http://www.monergism.com/thethreshold/articles/topic/seeker.html

http://www.oneplace.com/ministries/the_white_horse_inn/

The WHI recently offered a download of their chat with Robert Schuller (yikes!) and it was interesting how much Warren sounds like him except with more 'xian' words thrown in.

I was a Freshman in Bible College at an ancient(in the opinion of the other students) 22 when the I Found It! Campaign was first putting up their roadsigns and commercials. So don't worry about showing your age.

I realize that this Purpose Driven Lie is just another man-made fad, but this one has enough pop psycho-babble mixed in that it is really scratching "itchy" ears. There are so many churches out there now that are losing their way trying to implement the lastest program from Willow Creek and associates, that I really hate to see all these churches that are already on the edge get caught up in these 40 day journeys into self delusion.

CoffeeSwirls · Mar 16, 2005

Lockheed said:
The WHI recently offered a download of their chat with Robert Schuller (yikes!) and it was interesting how much Warren sounds like him except with more 'xian' words thrown in.

It's no giant stretch that Warren sounds so much like Schuller. Warren studied under him and gives him a lot of credit. You can listen to just about any sermon by either one of them and not hear words like "sin" or "redemption" as those aren't seen as "seeker friendly" terms. If we are to be seeker sensitive, at least we should do it with a proper understanding of who the seeker truly is.

John 4:23
But the hour is coming, and is now here, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth, for the Father is seeking such people to worship him.

Bulldog · Mar 17, 2005

realize that this Purpose Driven Lie is just another man-made fad, but this one has enough pop psycho-babble mised in that it is really scratching "itchy" ears.

"Pop Christianity" - my new nickname fore these types of fads..

tigersnare · Mar 18, 2005

Lockheed said:
What these things do for use who understand the doctrines of Grace and the nature of the Gospel is to show us the stark contrast between the Arminian 'gospel' and that which Spurgeon called "a nickname for the gospel".

The Arminians have to keep adjusting their 'gospel' to suit the newest generation. They've gone from slide shows to powerpoint presentations to full-blown video productions. They've ditched the piano and got a rock band that sings "God is everything! God is everything!" over and over. All these things are designed to suit the tastes of and attrack those from a culture of death. (Not that Christians can't like some rock music, but there is a time for everything.)

Lockheed, I find myself knodding in agreement with many of your posts...would you mind PMing me and swapping backgrounds? I'm always excited to talk with people with whom I might actually agree with in Theology. Hard to find at a Southern Louisiana University, most people don't even know what Presbyterian (PCA) is, much less "Reformed".

Lockheed · Mar 18, 2005

Shoaaa thing

CoffeeSwirls · Apr 6, 2005

Just a side note...

Powerful movements can be known in the USA by their very initials, AKA acronyms. For example, most people realize that PETA is an animal rights organization and it is known as PETA, not as the People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. If you look at the acronym "PDL" the only way you could really say that is "piddle."

I'm not trying to sound snarky or anything, but... well... If Rick Warren had known that this movement was going to be as big as it has gotten, you'd think he would have looked at the acronym of it for something a bit more dignified!

GrinningDwarf · Apr 6, 2005

CoffeeSwirls said:
So if it's all about ME and worship is the point of Rick Warren, what should I conclude? Never mind what Warren claims. Look at what the logical message states. God is not a part of my life so I can find "What on Earth am I here for" He is a part of my life so that I may glorify Him and worship Him forever.

Actually, the first line of The Purpose Driven Life is "It's not about you." Which is entirely true.

The next paragraph continues "The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fufilment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by His purpose and for His purpose."

Yup...there's a lot that's wrong with the book. But it is salvagable when taught the right way. Our pastor (non-Reformed) asked me (recently Reformed ) to teach TPDL to our adult Sunday school last year, and I only agreed when I actually had gone through the book myself. I liked that opening line!! That opening line got a lot of emphasis from me throughout the class. I included Q1 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism heavily in Lesson One, and scattered throughout.

Imblessed · Apr 7, 2005

GrinningDwarf said:
Actually, the first line of The Purpose Driven Life is "It's not about you." Which is entirely true.

The next paragraph continues "The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fufilment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by His purpose and for His purpose."

Yup...there's a lot that's wrong with the book. But it is salvagable when taught the right way. Our pastor (non-Reformed) asked me (recently Reformed ) to teach TPDL to our adult Sunday school last year, and I only agreed when I actually had gone through the book myself. I liked that opening line!! That opening line got a lot of emphasis from me throughout the class. I included Q1 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism heavily in Lesson One, and scattered throughout.

I haven't read the Purpose Driven Life, but I do know that our church leaders went through it last year. I just found out recently that our Pastor is quite a strong Calvinist. I agree that with the right emphasis, the book can be a good one. I can see what Rick Warren was trying to do with the book, but I'm not sure that he did a good job with it. I did say I haven't actually read it right? But I have heard quite a bit about it, so I'm basing my opinions on what I've heard. I like the "idea" behind the book. It sounds like he didn't quite get it down right though. I know this though, a Calvinistic church can effectively use it, because it seems to have made a positive impact on our church. With that in mind, I can't say too many bad things about it, but I am wary about the different fads that go around in the churches, and try to stay away from them.

Knight · Apr 7, 2005

GrinningDwarf said:
Actually, the first line of The Purpose Driven Life is "It's not about you." Which is entirely true.

The next paragraph continues "The purpose of your life is far greater than your own personal fufilment, your peace of mind, or even your happiness. It's far greater than your family, your career, or even your wildest dreams and ambitions. If you want to know why you were placed on this planet, you must begin with God. You were born by His purpose and for His purpose."

Yup...there's a lot that's wrong with the book. But it is salvagable when taught the right way. Our pastor (non-Reformed) asked me (recently Reformed ) to teach TPDL to our adult Sunday school last year, and I only agreed when I actually had gone through the book myself. I liked that opening line!! That opening line got a lot of emphasis from me throughout the class. I included Q1 of the Westminster Shorter Catechism heavily in Lesson One, and scattered throughout.

I agree with your sentiment about that opening line and paragraph. I had high hopes when I first read the book and this got me encouraged.

It went downhill from there.......

I'll also note that this was successfully used on our church to bring people to the throne of grace. It works if you do it right but so would anything else. Our pastor pretty much ignored the packaged sermon outlines and did his own thing on the topic for the week. It also helped that we followed it up with a serious evangelistic study on the gospel that was very clear.

Right now, I'm fairly sick of hearing "Purpose Driven" this and "Purpose Driven" that. Enough is enough.......

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