The Proof That Trees Have Souls

Romans 8 has a number of scriptures that relate to nature and its emotional reactions.
Does that require a soul? Or the spirit of God?

VanillaSunflowers said:

You expect people fond of bonfires to like you after this? Huh?

I was fond of bonfires. ______________________________________________________________________once.

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Vanilla, did any of them object? I think it may be a tree's dream to be a nice piece of furniture or a cherry fire to brighten the hearts of the onlookers.

Or it could be trees never give any of this any thought at all.

That's 5 minutes I'll never get back after reading through this post....

Luke 17:6 And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Isaiah 55:12 For ye shall go out with joy, and be led forth with peace: the mountains and the hills shall break forth before you into singing, and all the trees of the field shall clap their hands.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, heard I saying, Blessing, and honour, and glory, and power, be unto him that sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb for ever and ever.

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Regarding the idea of trees, and everything else, having consciousness, materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious. But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23). All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24). And if spirit is the same as consciousness, then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness (Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy. And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit, and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness. This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).

smh... Gnosticism at its best.

Bible2+ said:

{non-relevant citations excised}Regarding the idea of trees, and everything else, having consciousness, materialists think that consciousness can involve only that which is physical, and that it arises by having a certain number of neuronal connections in one's brain. So some scientists could be trying to create a supercomputer with enough neural network connections so that (they hope) it will become conscious.

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So it seems. So far, without success.

Bible2+ said:

But the Bible shows that humans are more than just physical bodies (1 Thessalonians 5:23), and that human souls can have consciousness outside of their bodies, whether their bodies are still alive (2 Corinthians 12:2-4) or have died (Revelation 6:9-10, Luke 16:22b-23). Also, angels have consciousness, even though they are referred to simply as "spirits" (Hebrews 1:7).

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I agree with this observation as well.

Bible2+ said:

So consciousness per se isn't something which requires a certain number of neuronal connections, but can be based on something even more fundamental: spirit (1 Thessalonians 5:23).

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1st Thessalonians 5:23 reads, "Now may the God of peace himself make you completely holy and may your spirit and soul andbody be kept entirely blameless at the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ." I'll go along with 'humans are more than bodies', but this shows no connection between 'spirit' and 'consciousness'.

Genesis 2:7 provides a greater argument on the subject. When God imbued the then lifeless body with the 'breath of life', that lifeless body became 'alive' and conscious. Reading the footnotes regarding this event, the words describing the 'life' of animals and plants is different - different word being used - than humans.

Animals seem to have some degree of consciousness - they seem to be self aware in some cases (dogs and dolphins more than goldfish or amoeba; but human science cannot be certain right now). This does not mean they have 'souls' in the spiritual sense as humans. Certainly the Bible does not anywhere instruct us to 'preach' to animals.

Bible2+ said:

All consciousness being ultimately based on spirit would make sense, for God is an infinite Spirit and an infinite consciousness (John 4:24, Psalms 139:7-10, Jeremiah 23:24).

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That's a opinion, based on your personal conclusion. I don't care to argue against it right now, but I can see where the idea may not have universal and unwavering support.

Bible2+ said:

And if spirit is the same as consciousness...

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Good you put the 'if' in that clause, 2+ ...

Bible2+ said:

...then every kind of created thing can have some consciousness ...

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Good you wrote 'can' and not 'does'.

Bible2+ said:

(Revelation 5:13, Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20)...

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Have nothing to do with consciousness. The verses relate instances where God manipulated various 'things', some with 'life' and some without life. Sorry, these do not connect and do not support your contention.

Bible2+ said:

... for everything exists within God (Acts 17:28), having been brought into and maintained in existence by God's Spirit (Psalms 104:30).

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By this argument, that would include rocks and dirt. I have met people where were - seemingly - dumb as dirt, but they were in fact, human beings (and more or less functional).

Bible2+ said:

A scientific way to think of this would be that the relationship between the spiritual and the physical may be analogous to the relationship between energy and matter. Just as the relationship of energy to matter is summarized by the equation e=mc^2, which means that immense amounts of energy are congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny particle of matter, so the relationship between spirit and energy could theoretically be summarized by, for example, the equation s=ec^3, meaning that immense amounts of spirit may be congealed and compacted, as it were, in order to form each tiny photon of energy.

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No. Not at all. The established equation you cite demonstrates energy and matter to be the same thing, at a basic level. Your 'extension' argument then demonstrates 'spirit' and 'body' to be the same thing. Or, as with energy and matter, the same basic substance in two different states. I do not agree, and see no Biblical or scientific support for the claim.

Bible2+ said:

And if all matter is based on energy, and all energy is based on spirit...

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Nope. Once again, you have 'leaped' from an established connection to a surmise and attempted - in the sentence - to connect them as related. Sorry, that doesn't work. Therefore, your conclusion shown:

Bible2+ said:

...and all spirit is consciousness, then all matter is ultimately based on consciousness, and so all matter can have some consciousness.

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Is invalid. It just does not connect up with logic, evidence or actual Biblical support.

I like your exploratory thinking on the subject, but you'll have to find something - evidence or better Bible text - that actually supports what you think here. (I don't think you will, but YOU do the research.)

Bible2+ said:

This would explain how a puff of wind, a wave of water, a tree, or a mountain can obey a human command (Mark 4:39-41, Luke 17:6, Matthew 17:20), and how every kind of created thing can worship God (Revelation 5:13, Psalms 148).

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Actually, a better and simpler explanation for the passages you cite is that Jesus IS God and all nature is subject to God's command, conscious or not.

Did I miss it, or did Rocky ever tell us what the tree said to Jesus? Or the 'hidden' secrets in the passage he cited?

rockytopva said:

The sermon is in the OP. In it you will find the hidden mystery.

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In it, one finds a Bible passage, a questionable statement or two and a Gnostic attitude about 'hidden meaning'.

So far, nothing of particular value.

What did the tree say?

I believe trees do indeed have souls.

...the soul is the principle of life.


http://www.catholic.com/quickquestions/do-animals-have-souls-like-human-beings

Well, that "Catholic Answer" made things clear as mud...

rockytopva said:

Are not two sparrows ...

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In other words, you don't have a clue in the world.

The soul is the principle that animates a material body. Trees have a material body and are alive, therefore they have souls.

If trees don't have legs and don't have feet, how can they have soles?

chilehed said:

...the principle that animates a material body...

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Explain this. I read the link a few posts ago that made no sense at all. Maybe you can help. I'm just at a loss to grasp what we're alluding to here.

What?

rockytopva said:

Interesting thought.... Jesus talked to a tree! Even answering it as the tree talked to him first!

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Do mountains have souls if they can be moved by faith?

ImaginaryDay said:

Explain this. I read the link a few posts ago that made no sense at all. Maybe you can help. I'm just at a loss to grasp what we're alluding to here.

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Just think of it this way -that any living thing that is animated, has a soul. How else would trees grow?