The Problem of Suffering

[Tranquil Bondservant]

The Cause of Suffering​

God is not just the source of life for everything, He IS life. Therefore when we sin we literally separate ourselves from the source of life; the natural consequence of which is non-life/nonexistence. When sin entered the world through Adam's disobedience our very existence started to unravel, from our genes through to our spiritual condition. Every man has chosen sin at least once in his life, even with the supernatural empowerment from The Lord us Christians sometimes fall during our sanctification, and thus all are morally culpable for Adam's transgression even though we all fell in him. Therefore when death entered the world so to did survival. Additionally, because all mankind bears the image of God, we have real choice. And therein, real consequences.

The Existence of Suffering​

To our God life is objectively more valuable than death (it's considered an enemy of God 1 Corinthians 15:26) which is why suffering is permitted to exist for a time. It’s also why God permits genetic aberrations to exist for a time; because people who are born with a bodily disability (including your brain) are alive. The person who suffers from the genetic aberration would not have come into existence if their two parents did not meet and copulate to pass on their genes which produced the aberration. Their life is unfathomably more valuable to God than their non-existence or death and therefore suffering is permitted to exist for a time in order that they may live/exist. Therefore, if as a result of sin being introduced into the world (edit: and as a result of real choices with real consequences) it is required to bear suffering for a time in order to live, the only reason said suffering is permitted to exist is because the life of a person is objectively more valuable to God than the death of them or them never coming into existence.

Animal Suffering​

The very existence of death for mankind means that animals are going to suffer. So their suffering is caused by us and is also permitted to exist by The Lord in order to provide man, who is objectively more valuable to The Lord, with life. Nevertheless animals are still valuable and their suffering is still a tragedy, though it is one that is caused by our sin. After all, vegetarianism is the natural & desirable state of man due to the killing of animals for food only being permitted post-flood in Genesis 9:3 (however there's nothing wrong with eating meat Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 8:8, Mark 7:18-19).

Secular Objections​

If the genesis for your morality is biology, then morality is inherently subjective. As the value ascribed to each individual moral stance or action are different from person to person and you have no authoritative transcendent standard which imparts value to and imposes parameters on specific behaviours, or in general, things that have physical properties (i.e. matter). The lack of a universal authoritative standard by which to evaluate morals therein also means that two people who morally oppose each other would be equally correct in their moral stances and you couldn't say one person's morals are wrong, only that their morals are different. Therefore, if you want to evaluate behaviours from person to person or ascribe any kind of value/hierarchy to morals you need to assume the truth of a moral stance or standard in order to judge or weigh evidence against said behaviours. To judge by a standard is not relative. So assuming human flourishing (empathy, kindness, love) as a standard by which to judge things is to assume without justification a moral truth which doesn't exist within the paradigm.

The reason I posted this in the Christian section is because our secular friends lack a morality that's unable to be authoritative over other kinds of morality because they have no ability to claim moral truths due to morality being inherently subjective in their paradigm. So they don't have a problem of evil or suffering because evil doesn't exist in their worldview; as we would be just matter smacking up against matter without any basis for ascribing value authoritatively to any specific thing. It's all arbitrary desire under a Naturalistic/Materialistic paradigm.

Closing thoughts​

I'm an Adventist so my understanding of Gehenna isn't Eternal Conscious Torment/Suffering. For that reason the objection (Edit: the objection of Hell) wouldn't affect the position I hold as nonexistence is a natural consequence of sin due to what I mentioned in the first paragraph about sin separating us from God. However my being an Adventist has no bearing upon the view of Anihilationism/Conditional immortality, I just mentioned it because it means I grew up with that view and therefore didn't have the cultural enforcement of Eternal Conscious Torment. I believe the case for Conditional Immortality is far more scripturally sound which is why I believe it.

Please feel free to pick apart the arguments or pose objections. Iron sharpens iron (Proverbs 27:17). Also if you want to have a chat or ask some questions feel free to shoot me a message, my inbox is always open.

Hallelujah & God bless you all.

Edit: Phrasing & clarity
Edit 2: I also in no way meant to minimise the suffering people experience. Some of the language I used and the way I phrased things may make it seem that way; however, I was speaking in a clinical way in order to describe the perspective/reasoning and not with a view to the degree in which suffering or it's effects are felt.

 

[Lost Witness]

Forever and ever would never have been said if souls were simply going to cease to be once in the lake of fire.

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Forever and ever would never have been said if souls were simply going to cease to be once in the lake of fire.

It was said about Sodom & Gomorrah when they experienced the eternal fire. The way an Annihilationist reads terminology like that is the way it was used when speaking about Sodom & Gomorrah, i.e. eternal destruction (Jude 7). Plus you have the parable of the tares and the wheat (Matthew 13:40), what happens to the tares? Nevertheless, I was trying to speak to the problem of suffering and was trying to avoid potential objections to the points made.

If you're interested in this view Edward fudge lays out the case for Annihilationism/Conditional Immortality better and more succinctly than I ever could:

God bless mate, thanks for commenting and allowing me to clarify

 

[Blade]

" which is why suffering is permitted to exist for a time. It’s also why God permits genetic aberrations to exist for a time; because people who are born with a bodily disability (including your brain) are alive. "

I am not here to "pick apart" so forgive me. I can't find this (what you said) in the word of God. What is Gods will? Well how is it in heaven? On earth as it IS in heaven. God didn't allow anything. Be like saying God allow Adam and Eve to sin to fall to listen. We know this is not true based on the fact God asked them 3 times.." where are you, did you eat of the tree I told you not to, who told you". So the suffering is because we handed over to Satan was was ours because of a lie. That tiny lie lost all of this for a time. Satan told Christ this was handed/given to me and I can give it to anyone I want"

Isa 53 1st Peter 2 24. Peter and John at the gate beautiful never once asked prayed to God or ask Christ anything. After that man was healed the people looked at them as if they did something. "why do you look at us as if we did something by our own power? That name faith in that name healed this man". Doubt will always stop God ever time. Is it not written "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways"

Some do teach this since it is written. But think about that "let not that man think/suppose that he will receive ANYTHING from the lord". See if we walk by faith live by faith we then always please the Father. Then if we know He hears us then we know we have the petitions/prayers we asked for.

See Gods will is His word... and we all have a free choice in just.. blindly believe it or follow those that preach something else. Christ is very real.. what He does for one He does for all. Anyone can seek ask Him.. and He will always back up what He says by His word

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

" which is why suffering is permitted to exist for a time. It’s also why God permits genetic aberrations to exist for a time; because people who are born with a bodily disability (including your brain) are alive. "

I am not here to "pick apart" so forgive me. I can't find this (what you said) in the word of God. What is Gods will? Well how is it in heaven? On earth as it IS in heaven. God didn't allow anything. Be like saying God allow Adam and Eve to sin to fall to listen. We know this is not true based on the fact God asked them 3 times.." where are you, did you eat of the tree I told you not to, who told you". So the suffering is because we handed over to Satan was was ours because of a lie. That tiny lie lost all of this for a time. Satan told Christ this was handed/given to me and I can give it to anyone I want"

Isa 53 1st Peter 2 24. Peter and John at the gate beautiful never once asked prayed to God or ask Christ anything. After that man was healed the people looked at them as if they did something. "why do you look at us as if we did something by our own power? That name faith in that name healed this man". Doubt will always stop God ever time. Is it not written "But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind. For let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from the Lord; he is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways"

Some do teach this since it is written. But think about that "let not that man think/suppose that he will receive ANYTHING from the lord". See if we walk by faith live by faith we then always please the Father. Then if we know He hears us then we know we have the petitions/prayers we asked for.

See Gods will is His word... and we all have a free choice in just.. blindly believe it or follow those that preach something else. Christ is very real.. what He does for one He does for all. Anyone can seek ask Him.. and He will always back up what He says by His word

Thank you for your response brother and I agree with 99% of what you wrote. I also thank you for taking time out of your day to write it. I would argue that God allowing suffering to exist for a time is laid out in Scripture because of what we're told about His character within the Bible. We know that from The Law given at Sinai that The Lord is holy beyond our ability to fathom and we also know from The Law that The Lord takes sometimes extraordinary measures in order to preserve life and prevent evil (Exodus 22:22–24). Also from the story of Joseph saving swaths of people from famine by The Lord elevating him to the steward/regent of Pharaohs house & kingdom (Genesis 41:57). So my point is essentially that God permitted Joseph to suffer in the dungeons so that untold amounts of people can live. He values life so much more than death that suffering is permitted to exist for a time in order that we may live. Which again is reflective of Christ's suffering so that we may live. So those genetic aberrations (I used that word instead of disabilities) would follow that same line of thought.

I said before that I agree with 99% of what you wrote, I do and that includes the fact that Adam chose sin over The Lord. God would have been completely justified in just deleting Adam and having Adam die on the spot, however, for my sake, yours and everyone else's; He did not do that. He also in His incredible grace & mercy even made skins for them so that they would be more comfortable in their nakedness (Genesis 3:21). So I would 100% agree that we are indeed morally at fault for our transgressions and the source of our suffering. But God is the one who put the tree in Eden so that He would not rule over robots; but real living people who bear His image. Even now our salvation is reflective of that choice in Eden as we have life through accepting God's gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless .

 

[Blade]

Thank you for your response brother and I agree with 99% of what you wrote. I also thank you for taking time out of your day to write it. I would argue that God allowing suffering to exist for a time is laid out in Scripture because of what we're told about His character within the Bible. We know that from The Law given at Sinai that The Lord is holy beyond our ability to fathom and we also know from The Law that The Lord takes sometimes extraordinary measures in order to preserve life and prevent evil (Exodus 22:22–24). Also from the story of Joseph saving swaths of people from famine by The Lord elevating him to the steward/regent of Pharaohs house & kingdom (Genesis 41:57). So my point is essentially that God permitted Joseph to suffer in the dungeons so that untold amounts of people can live. He values life so much more than death that suffering is permitted to exist for a time in order that we may live. Which again is reflective of Christ's suffering so that we may live. So those genetic aberrations (I used that word instead of disabilities) would follow that same line of thought.

I said before that I agree with 99% of what you wrote, I do and that includes the fact that Adam chose sin over The Lord. God would have been completely justified in just deleting Adam and having Adam die on the spot, however, for my sake, yours and everyone else's; He did not do that. He also in His incredible grace & mercy even made skins for them so that they would be more comfortable in their nakedness (Genesis 3:21). So I would 100% agree that we are indeed morally at fault for our transgressions and the source of our suffering. But God is the one who put the tree in Eden so that He would not rule over robots; but real living people who bear His image. Even now our salvation is reflective of that choice in Eden as we have life through accepting God's gift of salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

God bless .

Oh you may agree but.. you write talk so much better than I do What I say.. oh it can take me over an hour for just one post. Something no one knows. Its so hard for me. I have to say I base what I believe on Scripture as you do and I can be wrong on some things lol. So when I talk I am no expert what so ever. I know of many things awful scary things that happen and no man knows the answer. But what comes to mind is "I am not the God of this world". Satan is the god of this world. He showed the wonders of this world to Christ in a moments time. We just don't understand why Satan is always accusing us before the Father. Peter... "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.". There is so much in that telling us how things are done. OT God is about to judge yet looks for one from among them to build a wall to stand in the gap so He wont have to yet found none.

I can do so many things in this world freely where all Satan has to do is tell GOD I do this I did that.. I never repented on and on.. then say I have a right to.. and God allowed nothing.. I did it in world that was given to us that we handed over to the enemy. God is just. This is a fallen world so any "genetic aberrations (I used that word instead of disabilities)" is because of the fall nothing that God allowed. Your will be done on earth as it IS in heaven. See "these signs shall follow them that believe". He said lay hands on the sick they shall recover. Peter and John "why do you look at us as if we did this by our own power. That name faith in that name healed this man". They never once asked prayed to God Jesus to do anything. That name was not stuck in time back 2000 years ago. That name is above ever name out side of time. Not to make this about healing sorry. I use to visit this elderly man in a home who LOVED to hear the word of God. He could not move only moan. So I would read it play it. One day just talking and reading the word said to the lord lol.. a tad to bold yet.. "you gave me this burden for this man so I have a right to know why he is not being healed". The lord said right back "remember when Daniel prayed".

I knew exactly what He was talking about. To pause for a second. That was the only time in 62 years where when He said something.. so hard to explained. Well it was as if those word exploaded. So much was said with just 4 words oh so awesome. Anyway He came right back with Dan 10 9-12. So whats the big deal? I had never read the book of Daniel or the OT for that matter at that time. The only other time was at some pup where a Christian band was playing and the words "behold I stand at the door and knock" just crossed my mind. I thought...wow wonder where that is. Revelation 3:20 came right back. I thought.. na I am just guessing. NOPE spot on. Oh man I went around telling people what just happened no one was as happy as me haha. See again at that time I had never read Revelation.

So anyway.. I am thinking there is SO MUCH to God I don't know.. can't wait my brother

 

[Tranquil Bondservant]

Oh you may agree but.. you write talk so much better than I do What I say.. oh it can take me over an hour for just one post. Something no one knows. Its so hard for me. I have to say I base what I believe on Scripture as you do and I can be wrong on some things lol. So when I talk I am no expert what so ever. I know of many things awful scary things that happen and no man knows the answer. But what comes to mind is "I am not the God of this world". Satan is the god of this world. He showed the wonders of this world to Christ in a moments time. We just don't understand why Satan is always accusing us before the Father. Peter... "Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat. But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.". There is so much in that telling us how things are done. OT God is about to judge yet looks for one from among them to build a wall to stand in the gap so He wont have to yet found none.

I can do so many things in this world freely where all Satan has to do is tell GOD I do this I did that.. I never repented on and on.. then say I have a right to.. and God allowed nothing.. I did it in world that was given to us that we handed over to the enemy. God is just. This is a fallen world so any "genetic aberrations (I used that word instead of disabilities)" is because of the fall nothing that God allowed. Your will be done on earth as it IS in heaven. See "these signs shall follow them that believe". He said lay hands on the sick they shall recover. Peter and John "why do you look at us as if we did this by our own power. That name faith in that name healed this man". They never once asked prayed to God Jesus to do anything. That name was not stuck in time back 2000 years ago. That name is above ever name out side of time. Not to make this about healing sorry. I use to visit this elderly man in a home who LOVED to hear the word of God. He could not move only moan. So I would read it play it. One day just talking and reading the word said to the lord lol.. a tad to bold yet.. "you gave me this burden for this man so I have a right to know why he is not being healed". The lord said right back "remember when Daniel prayed".

I knew exactly what He was talking about. To pause for a second. That was the only time in 62 years where when He said something.. so hard to explained. Well it was as if those word exploaded. So much was said with just 4 words oh so awesome. Anyway He came right back with Dan 10 9-12. So whats the big deal? I had never read the book of Daniel or the OT for that matter at that time. The only other time was at some pup where a Christian band was playing and the words "behold I stand at the door and knock" just crossed my mind. I thought...wow wonder where that is. Revelation 3:20 came right back. I thought.. na I am just guessing. NOPE spot on. Oh man I went around telling people what just happened no one was as happy as me haha. See again at that time I had never read Revelation.

So anyway.. I am thinking there is SO MUCH to God I don't know.. can't wait my brother

Thank you for response and insight my friend. Your experiences are awesome and it makes me happy that you received so much joy in The Lord. I just wanted to say please don't be ashamed of your writing. Sometimes it takes me over an hour to post one thing as well, so we're the same you and I. I think that it's a benefit as when you're spending a lot of time on one thing you have a lot of time to think about the thing you're writing which means that you will have a deeper understanding. So please don't feel bad at all. The fact that it's sometimes hard for you to write and you still do just makes what you write even more valuable.

When you wrote what you did earlier it allowed me to go back over what I wrote in my original post and clarify things and think about them from a different angle, so even if we do disagree on some points you at the very least helped your brother in Christ to grow.

God bless mate

 

[Diamond72]

After all, vegetarianism is the natural & desirable state of man due to the killing of animals for food only being permitted post-flood in Genesis 9:3 (however there's nothing wrong with eating meat Romans 14:17, 1 Corinthians 8:8, Mark 7:18-19).

It is difficult to digest meat. The body has to have bacteria in the digestive system to break the meat down to where the enzymes can take over to digest our food. Also if we do not eat lean meat then our food can block our circulation and cause strokes and heart attacks.

I do not have any problems as far as the animals themselves because it is a promotion for the elements they are made of to move up the food chain.

 

[Diamond72]

oh it can take me over an hour for just one post.

I am sure you learn a lot. You can also get AI to write for you. That can save a lot of time.

 

[Diamond72]

So much was said with just 4 words oh so awesome.

Indeed, language has the incredible power to convey profound meaning and evoke strong emotions with just a few words. The phrase "so much was said with just 4 words" itself exemplifies the impact of concise and meaningful communication.