The Problem of Omniscience?.?.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

(Disclaimer) This was one of my earliest fully unasked questions, after acquiring more and more doubt about my now prior faith of Christianity. I do not know IF there IS any answer, but I would like to know if there exists a logical one, which can also be supported evidentially? I may not engage in this topic at all, I might a little, or maybe it will stir up a 'hornet's nest'? Who knows?

If God already knows where everyone and everything is going to end up, even before they are created, and the end is the rest of eternity, why the pregame? And by pregame, this means everything before the end --- where the rest of eternity starts.

[EDIT] please do not quibble over the terminology. I'm aware many can have a 'field day' with statements like "the end is the rest of eternity" or" everything before the end". I'm using simple words to distinguish a sequence of events

Thank you in advance!!!

Maria Billingsley · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
(Disclaimer) This was one of my earliest fully unasked questions, after acquiring more and more doubt about my now prior faith of Christianity. I do not know IF there IS any answer, but I would like to know if there exists a logical one, which can also be supported evidentially? I may not engage in this topic at all, I might a little, or maybe it will stir up a 'hornet's nest'? Who knows?

If God already knows where everyone and everything is going to end up, even before they are created, and the end is the rest of eternity, why the pregame? And by pregame, this means everything before the end --- where the rest of eternity starts.

Thank you in advance!!!

All knowing is not the same as all controlling. There is a big difference. Though some of our brothers and sisters believe He is both knowing and controlling, there are many who understand our God to have given us free will and the ability to choose. Unfortunately this continues to be one of the most debated issues in Christianity. I am affraid you are caught in its crosshairs, left with confusion and in doubt. I hope you find a satisfactory answer that keeps you on the road to Him. Be blessed.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

Maria Billingsley said:
All knowing is not the same as all controlling. There is a big difference.

I would agree with this statement. But I find this statement irrelevant to my concern.

Maria Billingsley said:
Though some of our brothers and sisters believe He is both knowing and controlling, there are many who understand our God to have given us free will and the ability to choose.

Sure, but are the ones that ascribe to the concept of true 'freewill' merely misinformed or in denial???

Maria Billingsley said:
Unfortunately this continues to be one of the most debated issues in Christianity. I am affraid you are caught in its crosshairs, left with confusion and in doubt. I hope you find a satisfactory answer that keeps you on the road to Him. Be blessed.

I guess this question is quite common then

BNR32FAN · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
(Disclaimer) This was one of my earliest fully unasked questions, after acquiring more and more doubt about my now prior faith of Christianity. I do not know IF there IS any answer, but I would like to know if there exists a logical one, which can also be supported evidentially? I may not engage in this topic at all, I might a little, or maybe it will stir up a 'hornet's nest'? Who knows?

If God already knows where everyone and everything is going to end up, even before they are created, and the end is the rest of eternity, why the pregame? And by pregame, this means everything before the end --- where the rest of eternity starts.

[EDIT] please do not quibble over the terminology. I'm aware many can have a 'field day' with statements like "the end is the rest of eternity" or" everything before the end". I'm using simple words to distinguish a sequence of events

Thank you in advance!!!

Perhaps He didn’t want to punish people for what they would do, instead He wanted to punish people for what they did do? Or maybe in order for us to love Him we needed to go thru life in order to be able to love Him.

cloudyday2 · Dec 11, 2020

Maybe our lives must play-out according to our personalities so that we can understand ourselves?

Take the example in the gospel when Peter says that he will never abandon Jesus, and Jesus says that Peter will deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows.

Maybe we need to live our lives to understand that we are not as good as we imagine.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
Perhaps He didn’t want to punish people for what they would do, instead He wanted to punish people for what they did do? Or maybe in order for us to love Him we needed to go thru life in order to be able to love Him.

The Bible states we are born with original sin. He deems us 'dirty' from the jump. God hates all 'sin' and knows we are not only born with inherent sin, but will continue, as long as we breath.

And many are never made aware of the 'actual' god. Thus, no opportunity to 'love' Him. Who's fault is this? If it's not the human's fault, why fault the human anyways?

Tinker Grey · Dec 11, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Maybe our lives must play-out according to our personalities so that we can understand ourselves?

Take the example in the gospel when Peter says that he will never abandon Jesus, and Jesus says that Peter will deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows.

Maybe we need to live our lives to understand that we are not as good as we imagine.

Couldn't an omnipotent god have made us with that knowledge without having to go through it? Or, perhaps that omnipotent god could have made us as good as we imagine -- or as good as we need to be with the correct assessment of that goodness.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Maybe our lives must play-out according to our personalities so that we can understand ourselves?

Take the example in the gospel when Peter says that he will never abandon Jesus, and Jesus says that Peter will deny him three times before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crows.

Maybe we need to live our lives to understand that we are not as good as we imagine.

How would this even work for the many whom die prematurely? Free pass here?

BNR32FAN · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
The Bible states we are born with original sin. He deems us 'dirty' from the jump. God hates all 'sin' and knows we are not only born with inherent sin, but will continue, as long as we breath.

And many are never made aware of the 'actual' god. Thus, no opportunity to 'love' Him. Who's fault is this? If it's not the human's fault, why fault the human anyways?

I don’t see why original sin would make any difference if He didn’t want to punish us for what we would’ve done instead of what we did do. And those who had no way of knowing about God will be judged the same way people were judged before the Mosaic Law, according to their deeds.

cloudyday2 · Dec 11, 2020

Tinker Grey said:
Couldn't an omnipotent god have made us with that knowledge without having to go through it? Or, perhaps that omnipotent god could have made us as good as we imagine -- or as good as we need to be with the correct assessment of that goodness.

If God created us in a different way (e.g. with built-in understanding of ourselves that would otherwise only come through life experiences) then we would be different people and actually not even human. I like to imagine that God created everybody exactly as we are, because that is how God wanted us to be.

cloudyday2 · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
How would this even work for the many whom die prematurely? Free pass here?

Maybe those people don't have anything they need to learn about themselves?

That's the best answer that comes to mind, sorry.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
I don’t see why original sin would make any difference if He didn’t want to punish us for what we would’ve done instead of what we did do.

Are you saying He is waiting to see [which ones] will come to God, in the way He likes?

BNR32FAN said:
And those who had no way of knowing about God will be judged the same way people were judged before the Mosaic Law, according to their deeds.

Are deeds a way to salvation, in absence of belief/repent/worship?

BNR32FAN · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
Are you saying He is waiting to see [which ones] will come to God, in the way He likes?

No I’m saying perhaps He doesn’t want to punish people for sins they haven’t committed yet.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
Maybe those people don't have anything they need to learn about themselves?

That's the best answer that comes to mind, sorry.

I understand these are just guesses, and I appreciate your contribution(s). Please allow me to respond.

This would mean that each and every child, whom died before the age of, let's say 4, already achieved self actualization. Is this even humanly possible? If so, it contradicts the claims of Christians, whom asserts there exists an age of accountability or an age of enlightenment. -- The age of acknowledged theodicy, and beyond.

BNR32FAN · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
Are you saying He is waiting to see [which ones] will come to God, in the way He likes?

Are deeds a way to salvation, in absence of belief/repent/worship?

They were before Christ began His ministry. Why was Rahab the harlet counted as being righteous? Was it because of her faith in God or was it because of her act of kindness?

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

BNR32FAN said:
They were before Christ began His ministry. Why was Rahab the harlet counted as being righteous? Was it because of her faith in God or was it because of her act of kindness?

By this rationale, it would behoove one not to proselytize to anyone, whom are deemed not yet aware. These folks would have no opportunity to reject this new assertion/teaching. They'd have a larger fighting chance, by their deeds.

Food for thought, have you ever closed the door to a person whom was preaching the word(s) of an opposing claimed agent? Maybe you are now damned for doing so?

Tinker Grey · Dec 11, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
If God created us in a different way (e.g. with built-in understanding of ourselves that would otherwise only come through life experiences) then we would be different people and actually not even human. I like to imagine that God created everybody exactly as we are, because that is how God wanted us to be.

And yet the Christian way is subvert one's self to be more like Christ. Abnegation of the self is the objective, to be a new creation. Note, too, that often Christians say that since "he will wipe away every tear", their memories will be wiped to the extent they won't mourn their loved ones in hell. I think that since our memories are significant to who we are, Christians are looking forward to not being who they are.

Of course, "not all Christians", but to some extent this is what I was taught.

cloudyday2 · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
I understand these are just guesses, and I appreciate your contribution(s). Please allow me to respond.

This would mean that each and every child, whom died before the age of, let's say 4, already achieved self actualization. Is this even humanly possible? If so, it contradicts the claims of Christians, whom asserts there exists an age of accountability or an age of enlightenment. -- The age of acknowledged theodicy, and beyond.

During meditation a person sometimes experiences himself/herself as an outside observer transcending the physical self such as body and brain. If there is a transcendent "higher self" for each person, then it is that part which God is probably trying to teach through a lifetime of experiences. The transcendent self for a four year old is not necessarily any less capable of learning.

cvanwey · Dec 11, 2020

cloudyday2 said:
During meditation a person sometimes experiences himself/herself as an outside observer transcending the physical self such as body and brain. If there is a transcendent "higher self" for each person, then it is that part which God is probably trying to teach through a lifetime of experiences. The transcendent self for a four year old is not necessarily any less capable of learning.

I'm gonna have to call %^$#^*@ here Do you really all believe this, or are you making an argument, just for the sake of making one?

cloudyday2 · Dec 11, 2020

cvanwey said:
I'm gonna have to call %^$#^*@ here Do you really all believe this, or are you making an argument, just for the sake of making one?

I believe there is probably a transcendent higher self for each of us, but I don't believe that children die young because their higher selves have learned what they needed to learn. Just brainstorming.

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