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Perfection? Inability to be in the presence of evil? Being non-physical?
Omnipotence? Omniscience? Omnibenevolence? Creatorship of everything from nothing? Being eternal? Being the Alpha and Omega? Being supernatural? Being the objective source of morality?
Look, is this going anywhere?
Either you have an argument or you don't. I presume you do really believe that all non-Christians are going to hell to receive eternal torment, right?
This is feeling drawn out and the tedious thing is I can see where it is going.You stated that you were in an argumentative mood, and yet when someone endeavors to enter into a civil discussion with you according to your own format for discussion, you cannot respect their course of argumentation.
Why is that?
Now I will ask you again, what makes us humans unique according to the bible?
See, that´s why I encouraged you to simply give the answer to your leading question that you consider "correct" (including the criteria by which you tell those properties that are supposed to be imaged an those that aren´t) instead of playing this silly game.Incorrect.
Well, you don´t always get what you want.I also made it known that I wanted to discuss this with Skavau.
This is feeling drawn out and the tedious thing is I can see where it is going.
Also you originally asked me "What attributes do God's image bearers possess?" not what makes us unique. Perhaps you mean the same thing. We're imperfect, we have a conscience?
The idea that we were created without our consent to chiefly "glorify God" and be with him in an "intimate relationship" seems implicitly tyrannical. What if someone rejects this agenda for them? What if someone is unaware of that agenda and even of their origins?As humans created in God's image, we possess a mind, will, and emotion. We possess the capacity to love, to reason, to enter into relationships and express this love for the glory of God. As God's image bearers, we were created to chiefly glorify God, to have dominion over the works of His hands and to enjoy Him in intimate relationship forever.
This is completely and utterly irrelevant to the debate.This is a rough summation of what it means to be created in God's image and this is what separates us from the animals and creeping things and the birds of the air, and this fish of the sea.
Now, tell me, what is love? How do you see it, and then I will tell you what the bible says about it.
The idea that we were created without our consent to chiefly "glorify God" and be with him in an "intimate relationship" seems implicitly tyrannical. What if someone rejects this agenda for them?
What if someone is unaware of that agenda and even of their origins?
Also your question seems to bare almost no meaningful resemblance to the answer you've given.
This is completely and utterly irrelevant to the debate.
Love, generally as an emotion towards another is a powerful attraction and affection to someone. It can be purely platonic but it can also take on the properties of being romantic.
Does he?Elioenai26 said:Then God loves you enough to let you have your own way.
This is incoherent.The bible teaches us that everyone knows God exists, and that He is worthy of worship honor and glory, no one is unaware.
The existence of stuff does not demonstrate the existence of God.Not one. For God has made Himself known through what has been created, so that no man has an excuse.
Presumably he has decided to make himself exempt from this right and wrong differentiation.He has given us a conscience and the capacity to know right from wrong, as you have already born witness to.
I think this is untrue, to a degree. You cannot force yourself to love another. If you could, then far fewer marriages would collapse.Love is a choice, above all.
We choose to love someone and we must allow the object of our love to have the choice to love us in return.
I'm not asking to spend eternity with him. That is and never was the foundation of my argument. I'm asking why my rejection of God deserves eternal torment.If you reject God's love, then He will allow you to go your way. If you die in this rejection, despising and hating God's "tyrannical" ways, why do you think you would want to spend eternity with Him?
Does this mean I won't be tormented in hell? Because that isn't my wish.
Nor is it the wish of Muslims, by the way who unlike me actually do wish to live with God.
You either accept that or you do not. I do not.
Secondly, I am not aware of God's existence. Do you think I am lying to you when I say that?
I'm asking why my rejection of God deserves eternal torment.
Right, so when you said:Elioenai26 said:I will have to quote quatona here...
"Well, you don´t always get what you want."
It doesn't matter what Jesus said there. There are theists outside of Christianity that do love God. They may have an incorrect understanding of God. They may believe that an entirely different God exists but they still believe and love God regardless. That it is inaccurate should not matter. Their motives would be pure. Their objectives almost identical to God's plan.Jesus said that He was the only way to God the Father. If Jesus was indeed who He said He was, then He would know. He also knows the hearts of men. Shall not the Lord of all the earth do what is right?
Except it isn't. My convictions are informed by my observations, experience and my knowledge. They are not as trivial as mere preference.That is your choice to make.
Because the Bible claims I am?You are aware that He exists, do you know why I say that?
This is a strawman and a slur. First of all, my rejection of the God you believe in is a reaction to your description of him. I would refuse to accept and glorify the God you believe in because he allows torment. Because he watched passively as billions suffer. That is beyond any evil that any individual, any nation or any empire could commit even in fantasy. It literally is the most reprehensible concept ever imagined and yet your supposedly all-loving God approves of it.According to the Bible, there is heaven where the love, power, majesty, and glory of the Most High God will be experienced by all them that love Him, and there is Hell, where all who do not love Him will be in anguish over their own selfishness and hatred of all that was good and pure.
If it is so, then God would be better to just end our existence. Or offer those in hell some kind of refuge away from their torment. Or even reform them. The suffering in hell is needless and petty.This hatred and selfishness is arguably self-perpetuating, increasing throughout all eternity.
This is just a claim. No reason to accept it.We are eternal beings either way. And sin against a Holy, Eternal, Righteous God merits eternal condemnation.
It doesn't matter what Jesus said there.
Because the Bible claims I am?
So when I describe myself as an atheist you think I am lying? Yes or no.
This is just a claim. No reason to accept it.
No, it doesn't. Read what I said afterwards:This sums it up.
This depends entirely on how you are using the word "objective". At any rate that I do unequivocally condemn torture and child abuse (which is more than you when referring to the former) does not mean that I believe in a God. The two have nothing to do with each other.Because you maintain that objective moral values exist. Remember your position on torture? On child abuse?
But am I lying? After all, you did say previously:I think you are confused.
You said:The bible teaches us that everyone knows God exists, and that He is worthy of worship honor and glory, no one is unaware.
I don't. I thought you were arguing for torture in hell as morally justified? On your first actual on-topic post on it not only do you simply rehash an argument I've probably had with you before you don't bother to defend my request for you to support it, nor do you address my counter-argument.Then don't.
The bible teaches us that everyone knows God exists, and that He is worthy of worship honor and glory, no one is unaware. Not one. For God has made Himself known through what has been created, so that no man has an excuse. He has given us a conscience and the capacity to know right from wrong, as you have already born witness to.
Then the Bible is wrong.
So you say. I would rather take God's word.
Ultimately the choice is yours.
Perhaps the Bible's authors were merely being poetic?Wouldn't be the first time, would it Elio?
Are you even trying?
You have written even less than your prior defense for hell in this thread. You also wrote your defense in apparent ignorance for the fact that I've covered it before in previous defenses.I have written what I felt is necessary. You have the information you requested. What you do with it is entirely up to you.
You have written even less than your prior defense for hell in this thread. You also wrote your defense in apparent ignorance for the fact that I've covered it before in previous defenses.
To say I am disappointed is an understatement, actually. I was hoping for some heavy back and forth but you baulk too easily at questions. You can't even tell me if you think I'm lying about being an atheist despite saying earlier that everyone knows that God exists.
So from this exchange, know this.As I stated before, argumentativeness is not a trait I find admirable or useful.
I apologize for letting you down.
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