The Problem of Hell v.2

[Skavau]

This sub-forum had a time ago a very long thread regarding the utility and morality of hell and rather than resurrecting that thread again I think it'd be more prudent to start this one.

The Problem of Hell

Many Christians and Muslims endorse the idea that all unsaved, or all non-believers will at death be tormented for eternity for their sin or for their non-decision in accepting the sacrifice of Jesus or Allah as God and Mohammed as his messenger respectively.

These same Christians and Muslims often claim at the same time that God is all-merciful and all-powerful.

My primary contention is that these claims are in obvious contradiction and cannot be reconciled. Either God is all-loving and proposes no hellfire for all non-Christians or God is evil and allows all non-Christians to be tormented for their lack of belief after death.

My secondary contention is that anyone who vigorously defends this doctrine has serious moral problems in that they are willing to defend and approve of the potential and actual torture of billions and billions of people entirely for what they didn't think. That is the literal endorsement of permanent torture for thought-crime - punishment for what people think or don't think. I can actually think of nothing more depraved, more evil. The peak of the imagination for sadism cannot be eclipsed.

I invite all who defend this doctrine to enter this thread and morally defend the proposition that God allows people to enter hell for eternity.

What this thread is not:

• This thread does not assume that the hellfire doctrine is a necessary part of Christianity, nor does it assume it is not. It makes no comment on the accuracy of any hell doctrine contained within Christianity. It is about asking those who do subscribe to any hell doctrine to morally defend and justify their beliefs that all non-Christians ought to obtain eternal torment at death. The question is open and also goes out to any floating Muslims who observe the same beliefs on the subject.

• This thread does not ask anyone to defend their accuracy of their beliefs with scripture for the veracity is not under question but the morality of it is. When you argue your point I will assume for the purposes of argument that your truth-based observations are true. Granted, if it is part of your justification is that God said X in the Bible/Qu'ran, then it is relevant but only to the end of justifying it morality.

Common Arguments:

1. We choose to go to hell by rejecting Jesus' offer of salvation.

• This is simply untrue. I do not believe in the divinity of Jesus and the offer of his sacrifice due to a lack of evidence and reasoned argument in favour of it. My skepticism on this point reflects only my convictions and has nothing to do with choosing hell. This argument also completely ignores the existence of Muslims, Sikhs, Zoroastarians and plenty of other theists that have their own understanding of redemption and paradise. Do you seriously contend that they rejected heaven and opted for hell? This argument is blatant nonsense.

• It is worth pointing out this. I am an anti-theist. I would reject salvation even if I believed it was true. This, though does not mean that I somehow choose to go to hell. That would be the circumstances God set down. That I may reject heaven would not mean that I would embrace hell. The choice is false.

2. Hell is non-physical torment and not physical torture.

• This is point often said. It is irrelevant. It is nothing more than semantics. The contention against hell is that it is a realm that is designed specifically to inflict suffering towards people, and not just suffering but the most unimaginable permanent suffering so bad that we cannot actually conceive of something worse. That it is or could actually involve some metaphysical pain or internal torment over the traditional fire and brimstone point is irrelevant.

 

[juvenissun]

God forbids unbelievers (His enemies) to go to the Heaven. And God thinks they should all be gathered together at one place, so they won't encounter believers in other spaces.

I don't see anything wrong on that for a loving God.

 

[Skavau]

God forbids unbelievers (His enemies) to go to the Heaven.

Why do you think God views unbelievers as his enemies exactly? Most people who do not believe in God if not all people who do not believe in God do so based on a perceived lack of evidence and not on any kind of low motive or anti-theist agenda.

Also I must ask you: What of other theists such as Muslims, Sikhs, Baha'i etc? The claim cannot be levelled against them as being enemies. They just believe in a different concept of God and view his attributes differently. Their conviction and adherence in that God is just as strong as yours. What of polytheists also?

And God thinks they should all be gathered together at one place, so they won't encounter believers in other spaces.

Why is it a problem if atheists and other non-Christians encounter non-believers in other spaces?

Even if this can be argued: Why is it acceptable to torment all non-Christians? Why can't they just be well and healthy in another space?

I don't see anything wrong on that for a loving God.

You have not looked very far, obviously.

 

[Tinker Grey]

And even if there were a valid reason that non-believers couldn't be in Heaven, why Hell and not simple annihilation?

 

[citizenthom]

You're thinking of Hell as a "place" people are "sent." Hell is more accurately thought of as a state of existence.

Start by defining God. I'll be speaking in terms of Christian truth, but all the religions you cite agree that God is a perfect being, whatever "perfection" entails.

With reference to God there are only two states of existence: sin ("apart from God") and salvation ("with God"). We are born into sin: we are imperfect and by nature trend away from God's perfection and perfect plan. We either continue on that path, or we make the conscious decision to choose to seek God through his son Jesus Christ. It's an either-or state.

Heaven and Hell are just the eternal continuations of those states. Heaven is the state of eternal communion with God. Hell is the state of eternal separation from God.

The "torture" of Hell is knowing for certain that you are eternally separated from God and will never experience His presence again. The Bibles tells us that in Hell one can in fact SEE what Heaven is like, revealing the full breadth and depth of that decision.

And most relevant to your post, OP, God does not "send" anyone into that state: we choose it when we choose to reject God's path. That is how Hell is compatible with a loving God: Hell is not something God "does to us," but something we consciously choose ourselves.

 

[Skavau]

You're thinking of Hell as a "place" people are "sent." Hell is more accurately thought of as a state of existence.

Actually, whether or not people are sent to hell is somewhat irrelevant in this. The problem with hell is what it is and what the conditions are for going there. Whether God directly sends people or whether he establishes the conditions for people to "send themselves there" (a statement I contest, but I digress) is simply neither here nor there.

Start by defining God.

The thread specifically addresses those who claim that the God they believe in sends or establishes conditions compelling non-believers to reside in hell to undergo eternal torment. It assumes anyone contesting my claims believes that at least and invites them to provide a moral defense for why it ought to be so.

I'll be speaking in terms of Christian truth, but all the religions you cite agree that God is a perfect being, whatever "perfection" entails.

Yes, they do. Are you talking about Islam and Christianity I referenced in the OP or the other religions I mentioned to juvenissun?

With reference to God there are only two states of existence: sin ("apart from God") and salvation ("with God"). We are born into sin: we are imperfect and by nature trend away from God's perfection and perfect plan.

This is an immoral injunction. According to the above we are cursed from birth with the propensity towards sin. How can we be held accountable for our tendency towards sin when God inflicts it or allows it upon us from birth?

We either continue on that path, or we make the conscious decision to choose to seek God through his son Jesus Christ. It's an either-or state.

The state is a false choice. The 'either-or' does not take into account absolutely anything and looks at people completely one-dimensionally.

Is God not aware that all atheists do not believe in him for reasons of a lack of perceived evidence and therefore don't actually accept the concept of sin as valid? They have no idea that they are actually bound into some eternal tyranny where they must engage in perpetual subservience to avoid the consequences of not noticing it.

Is God not aware of all of the other theists that believe themselves 'saved'? Muslims have a rather similar opinion of exclusivity of Christianity and hold the same amount of conviction and appreciation towards God as Christians do. Does God have nothing to say on them? All they have done is chosen a factually incorrect way to redemption. What about other monotheists? This is an extremely narrow-minded view of people that God appears to be taking.

Heaven and Hell are just the eternal continuations of those states. Heaven is the state of eternal communion with God. Hell is the state of eternal separation from God.

Okay. So considering that many atheists, non-religious people etc are only so due to ignorance (at least according from your perspective) would God not offer a olive branch after death to these souls knowing that they would accept his offer of salvation?

The "torture" of Hell is knowing for certain that you are eternally separated from God and will never experience His presence again.

So why does not God put those in hell out of their misery if nothing else?

The Bibles tells us that in Hell one can in fact SEE what Heaven is like, revealing the full breadth and depth of that decision.

So why does God not grant those who simply chose an incorrect religious or non-religious path in life a way into heaven?

And most relevant to your post, OP, God does not "send" anyone into that state: we choose it when we choose to reject God's path.

What kind of definition of 'choose' are you using here?

If I walk across a busy road and get hit by a car did I choose to get hit over? No, of course not and yet this seems to be the only parallel towards 'choosing' to enter hell. It makes complete nonsense of choice itself.

That is how Hell is compatible with a loving God: Hell is not something God "does to us," but something we consciously choose ourselves.

I don't choose to go to hell. A Muslim does not choose to go to hell.

In fact, he will tell you he has chosen to go to the opposite.

 

[Elioenai26]

People who reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, necessarily affirm that they do not want to be with Him. Jesus is Love, He is Light, He is goodness, He is kindness, He is just, He is Holy, He is marvelous and wondrous, He is magnificent, He is life, He is comfort, He is joy, He is all that our minds can conceive as being desirable.

Hell is the exact opposite of all I just said. It is separation from Him. It is what people want when they don't want Jesus. It is really quite simple.

 

[Skavau]

People who reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, necessarily affirm that they do not want to be with Him.

Two things.

1. This is unargued for. Most people reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness because they don't believe that there exists an eternal offer of forgiveness. They are not making a statement on whether they wish to be with him, they simply do not believe that Jesus exists and thus don't act as if they do.

2. This again does not account for non-Christian theists who seek forgiveness from other sources. Do you seriously think Muslims wish to dwell externally from God?

Jesus is Love, He is Light, He is goodness, He is kindness, He is just, He is Holy, He is marvelous and wondrous, He is magnificent, He is life, He is comfort, He is joy, He is all that our minds can conceive as being desirable.

Uh, alright.

This isn't an argument - just claims which can fall apart under scrutiny.

Hell is the exact opposite of all I just said. It is separation from Him. It is what people want when they don't want Jesus. It is really quite simple.

No it isn't. It is really quite simple. I don't believe in Jesus. I do not however want to languish in eternal torment - I simply don't believe in Jesus. The two are completely different things.

 

[Elioenai26]

1. This is unargued for. Most people reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness because they don't believe that there exists an eternal offer of forgiveness. They are not making a statement on whether they wish to be with him, they simply do not believe that Jesus exists and thus don't act as if they do.

First, everyone who hears the good news of the gospel makes a decision to accept it or reject it.

2. This again does not account for non-Christian theists who seek forgiveness from other sources. Do you seriously think Muslims wish to dwell externally from God?

They do if they do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

I simply don't believe in Jesus. The two are completely different things.

Then if you die in your sins having not accepted Jesus as you Savior, you will stand condemned because you have not believed in the Name of the only Son of God. And this is the judgment: the Light has come into the world and people loved darkness rather than the Light because their works were evil.

I pray God be gracious and merciful to you and that you accept Jesus and love Him and serve Him all of your days. This is the true Life which came down from Heaven. Millions have had their hearts and minds changed by His overwhelming love. I pray you are one of them.

 

[Skavau]

First, everyone who hears the good news of the gospel makes a decision to accept it or reject it.

Yes. They do so based on their interpretation of the presented and avaliable evidence for the "good news of the gospel." They do not do so based on not desiring to be with Jesus.

You have their motives completely misunderstood.

They do if they do not accept Jesus Christ as their Savior.

This is utter nonsense. So you seriously think that every Muslims desires to be seperate from God? Do you know anything whatsoever about Islam?

Then if you die in your sins having not accepted Jesus as you Savior, you will stand condemned because you have not believed in the Name of the only Son of God.

I know this is what you believe. I also suspect you cannot morally defend such a consequence for non-belief. That you think people are condemned for not believing in Jesus directly tells me that you do effectively support the idea of thought-crime. That is that you actually think that people at least in specific circumstances (such as dying unsaved) ought to be punished or "condemned" based on what they don't think.

Scary.

And this is the judgment: the Light has come into the world and people loved darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.

My disbelief in Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with "loving darkness."

I pray God be gracious and merciful to you and that you accept Jesus and love Him and serve Him all of your days. This is the true Life which came down from Heaven. Millions have had their hearts and minds changed by His overwhelming love. I pray you are one of them.

I am sure you think all of the above but this has nothing to do with the thread whatsoever and has precisely no impact on me. Empty pseudo-emotional pleas for my change move nothing inside of me and actually make me feel slightly sick inside given the fact that I know what you think happens to those who reject Jesus' offer of servitude and mandatory love (a concept that makes me wretch, by the way).

I await a moral defense for why all non-Christians are deserving of eternal torment and not just assertions with no basis in reality.

 

[Elioenai26]

This is utter nonsense. So you seriously think that every Muslims desires to be seperate from God? Do you know anything whatsoever about Islam?

Any person who rejects Jesus, regardless of who they are, does not want to have Jesus as their Lord and therefore they want to spend eternity without Him.

I know this is what you believe. I also suspect you cannot morally defend such a consequence for non-belief. That you think people are condemned for not believing in Jesus directly tells me that you do effectively support the idea of thought-crime. That is that you actually think that people at least in specific circumstances (such as dying unsaved) ought to be punished or "condemned" based on what they don't think.

I do not have to defend anything. And I won't. Suffice it to say that this is God's judment, not mine. I however, wholeheartedly agree with His judgment.

My disbelief in Christianity has nothing whatsoever to do with "loving darkness."

I am sure you think all of the above but this has nothing to do with the thread whatsoever and has precisely no impact on me. Empty pseudo-emotional pleas for my change move nothing inside of me and actually make me feel slightly sick inside given the fact that I know what you think happens to those who reject Jesus' offer of servitude and mandatory love (a concept that makes me wretch, by the way).

I await a moral defense for why all non-Christians are deserving of eternal torment and not just assertions with no basis in reality.

Your very own words show the true nature of your heart. Jesus is not who you want to be with. You do not love Him, you do not cherish Him. Nor are you even able to. I have said all I need to say. Read the Bible. Read the gospels. Read about how Jesus suffered and died and prayed for those who were nailing Him to a cross. Read that. I pray you are encouraged by those words.

 

[Skavau]

Any person who rejects Jesus, regardless of who they are, does not want to have Jesus as their Lord and therefore they want to spend eternity without Him.

Nice evasion. I presume you're conflating 'Jesus' with 'God'?

I'll ask again though (assuming you're not): Do you think all Muslims wish to be seperate from God? Yes or no.

I do not have to defend anything. And I won't.

Then why are you interacting in this thread? Did you read the OP?

Suffice it to say that this is God's judment, not mine. I however, wholeheartedly agree with His judgment.

Why do you agree with God's judgement on the unsaved?

Your very own words show the true nature of your heart.

What is the "true nature of my heart", pray tell?

Jesus is not who you want to be with. You do not love Him, you do not cherish Him. Nor are you even able to. I have said all I need to say.

You're right: I don't love Jesus. I also don't love Mohammad. I also don't care for Allah, Zeus or Wotan. I don't care for anything I consider mythological. What is your point? Is this a surprise to you? I am an empiricist and I am therefore unlikely to any supernatural concept with any kind of reverance.

Read the Bible. Read the gospels. Read about how Jesus suffered and died and prayed for those who were nailing Him to a cross. Read that. I pray you are encouraged by those words.

I am not bound indefinitely by his sacrifice. That is a crude form of tyranny.

 

[Elioenai26]

You're right: I don't love Jesus. I also don't love Mohammad. I also don't care for Allah, Zeus or Wotan. I don't care for anything I consider mythological. What is your point? Is this a surprise to you? I am an empiricist and I am therefore unlikely to any supernatural concept with any kind of reverance.


I am not bound indefinitely by his sacrifice. That is a crude form of tyranny.

There you have it. What more do I need to say?

 

[Skavau]

There you have it. What more do I need to say?

Morally justify how me not loving Jesus and not believing in Jesus means I deserve to be tormented forever at death.

 

[Elioenai26]

Morally justify how me not loving Jesus and not believing in Jesus means I deserve to be tormented forever at death.

Why do I have to tell you what you already know? You know very well that deep within your heart at some point in the past, you heard about Jesus and you made a decision. Unless of course, you have never heard the gospel before?

 

[Skavau]

Why do I have to tell you what you already know?

Uh, what are you talking about? I asked you to morally justify why I (or any non-Christian) deserves to be tormented forever after death for not accepting Jesus Christ as their saviour.

You know very well that deep within your heart at some point in the past, you heard about Jesus and you made a decision. Unless of course, you have never heard the gospel before?

I'm not talking about the supposed "good news" I rejected at some point in the past. I've never accepted it in my life incase you care. I'm asking you to morally justify why I should be tormented forever for holding no conviction in Jesus' offer and existence.

 

[mmksparbud]

Why are you picking a belief that not all Christians believe in to scrutinize??---Many do not believe that God is some monster who can torture His creations forever and ever, It is a horribly unjust, evil, thing to believe in. God alone judges the heart--He alone will decide who will spend eternity with Him and who will not. The problem is that sin can not live in the presence of God--it's like a drop of water sitting on the pavement when the temperature is 110--can't survive. Love is what being with God is all about. God allowed His son to come and save mankind through His own death. Sin is the problem--the only way to be shielded from destruction by the presence of God is for Christ to cover you with His cloak--His atoning blood paid the price for our sin and we can then stand before God and live. There are many who have never heard of the name of Jesus--they have lived as they know, they have heard the voice of Jesus and followed Him not knowing it. They are covered by Jesus' sacrifice. There is no hell that burns and tortures forever. Those that do not want to be with God, won't be. They are destroyed by His light. They would not be happy living with God and only God can know that. In the end, those that are to be destroyed will see that it is just. Knowing about Jesus, and not accepting Him is your choice. When He returns, He will not torture you, He accepts your decision to not be with Him and you will not have eternal life with Him. He will not force anyone to believe in Him--There is enough evidence, it's up to us to accept it or not. God is love, God is justice.He will not destroy anyone that He has not called. He calls, He knocks at your door--you either let Him in, or not. He doesn't want anyone to be lost.

 

[Skavau]

Why are you picking a belief that not all Christians believe in to scrutinize??

I referred to this in the original post. This thread is solely for those Christians who do believe in eternal torment for those who do not accept salvation.

---Many do not believe that God is some monster who can torture His creations forever and ever, It is a horribly unjust, evil, thing to believe in.

I'm glad you think this. Please spread such a view around.

God alone judges the heart--He alone will decide who will spend eternity with Him and who will not. The problem is that sin can not live in the presence of God--it's like a drop of water sitting on the pavement when the temperature is 110--can't survive.

I'm not entirely convinced that an omniscient superpower such as God would be incapable of making it possible so that 'sin' can surround him, so to speak either by simply eradicating people's sin or simply tolerating it.

What do you believe awaits those who do not spend eternity with God?

Love is what being with God is all about. God allowed His son to come and save mankind through His own death. Sin is the problem--the only way to be shielded from destruction by the presence of God is for Christ to cover you with His cloak--His atoning blood paid the price for our sin and we can then stand before God and live.

Yes, so I'm told. I'm not being frivolous on this at all and I would probe this on almost every other occasion but I'd like to focus on some other points.

There are many who have never heard of the name of Jesus--they have lived as they know, they have heard the voice of Jesus and followed Him not knowing it. They are covered by Jesus' sacrifice. There is no hell that burns and tortures forever.

Okay. Great!

Those that do not want to be with God, won't be. They are destroyed by His light. They would not be happy living with God and only God can know that. In the end, those that are to be destroyed will see that it is just.

Well, being destroyed is better than being tormented for eternity but I'd be hesitant to call it just.

Knowing about Jesus, and not accepting Him is your choice. When He returns, He will not torture you, He accepts your decision to not be with Him and you will not have eternal life with Him.

I don't 'not accept' Jesus. I simply don't believe in him.

He will not force anyone to believe in Him--There is enough evidence, it's up to us to accept it or not. God is love, God is justice.He will not destroy anyone that He has not called. He calls, He knocks at your door--you either let Him in, or not. He doesn't want anyone to be lost.

Okay.

 

[Gadarene]

There you have it. What more do I need to say?

The issue is that you cannot reject something you don't believe exists in the first place.

First God, or one of his fanclub members, needs to provide evidence he exists (evidence that actually holds up, naturally).

 

[sandwiches]

People who reject Jesus' offer of forgiveness, necessarily affirm that they do not want to be with Him. Jesus is Love, He is Light, He is goodness, He is kindness, He is just, He is Holy, He is marvelous and wondrous, He is magnificent, He is life, He is comfort, He is joy, He is all that our minds can conceive as being desirable.

Hell is the exact opposite of all I just said. It is separation from Him. It is what people want when they don't want Jesus. It is really quite simple.

I don't want that but I haven't been offered anything from Jesus I could recognize.

It's really that simple. If you think that non-theists want eternal solitude, darkness, pain, suffering, etc, you're more delusional than I originally thought.