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Please answer this question:
Let's say Fred has not yet made his day 2 a/b choice. God knows Fred will choose A out of his day 2 a/b choice. Fred then freely chooses B. What happens to God's knowledge that Fred would choose A?
Christians often make the claim that God knows everything. If asked for specifics, theyll say this includes knowledge about the future (foreknowledge) and that such knowledge is infallible. Christians also often make the claim that man has free will. Upon being asked for specifics, theyll agree that free will entails the ability to freely make a choice and that up until the time an option is chosen, a different option could have been chosen. At quick glance, these claims may not appear to be in conflict. However, if we dig a little deeper into each of these claims, well see that they are.
Lets say Fred is faced with a free choice of A or B. He is due to make this choice on Tuesday (day 2). Well call Freds day 2 A/B choice variable Y. This means prior to day 2, variable Y has no value (or the choice lies in an unmade state), and on day 2, variable Y will acquire a value of either A or B to be decided freely by Fred.
Given the Christian claim that God has infallible foreknowledge, this would mean God knows infallibly what A/B choice Fred will make when the choice still lies in an unmade state. To gain further clarity on this, it can be asked, if it were asked on day 1 does God know infallibly what Freds day 2 A/B choice will be, would the answer be YES?. Christians would typically agree.
If asked for further specifics, such as what if Fred chooses something in conflict with what God knows he will choose, Christians will respond with the assertion that Fred will choose whatever God knows he will choose.
So well call Gods day 1 knowledge of Freds day 2 A/B choice variable X. If God knows infallibly on day 1 what Freds day 2 A/B choice will be, then it follows that X has a static or fixed value of either A or B as of day 1.
We now have three conditions:
1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.
2) Y (or Freds day 2 A/B choice) receives its value on day 2. Once Y receives its value, it becomes locked. Prior to receiving its value, it could potentially become A or B, as Fred freely chooses A or B. This follows the assertion that Fred has free will or can freely make choices.
3) X is equal to Y. This follows the assertion that whatever Fred chooses is precisely the same as what God knew he would choose.
Not all three of these conditions can be true.
If #1 & #2 are true, then #3 cant be true, as X wouldnt be equal to Y, nor would Y be equal to X. Not only would X receive a value at a different point in time than Y, but Y could be assigned a value in conflict with the static value of X.
If #1 & #3 are true, then #2 cant be true. Fred wouldnt be able to freely choose A or B, as variable Y would already be defined as being equal to variable X. Christians will often argue that God's knowledge of Freds future choice is a function of Freds day 2 choice. But this doesnt hold true if the answer to the question if asked on day 1, does God know what Freds day 2 A/B choice will be? is YES.
If #2 & #3 are true, then #1 cant be true. What this means is if variable Y gets its value on day 2, then variable X also gets its value on day 2 and gets the same value as variable Y. It then follows that God cant have infallible knowledge on day 1 of Freds day 2 A/B choice.
Therefore, it is logically impossible for God (or anyone) to have infallible foreknowledge of a yet to be made free choice.
I'll tell you what kind of god that is after you first answer my question:What kind of god is that?
Almost all of the answers are very good. However, none of them adequately address the problem of free will.You've posted exactly the same thing many times before, and received good answers (which you ignored).
Let's say you return to day 1. You know Fred will choose A on day 2. Fred then freely chooses B on day 2. What happens to your knowledge that Fred would choose A?
The problem of free will is in response to claims that God knows everything and can do anything. It's not in response to claims that God is incapable of knowing future events.A mortal could do that. A demi-god of the Roman and Greek variety could do that. The God of the Bible cannot.
It assumes God has foreknowledge because it is in response to claims that God has foreknowledge. It doesn't ask a question which assumes he doesn't. It demonstrates that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge.The question assumes that God has foreknowledge...and then poses a question which assumes that he does not. It is meaningless when asked of God.
1) X (or God's knowledge as of day 1 of Fred's day 2 A/B choice) has a value of either A or B on day 1 and this value is fixed and cannot change. If it is A, it will remain A. If it is B, it willremain B. This follows the assertion that God has infallible knowledge of future events.
Let's say you're faced with the choice of A or B. You choose B. Up until the time you selected option B, could you still have selected option A?
At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?We are living by time. God is not. Say, He can anytime go to the future to see what you will choose.
Let's say variable X represents God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 A/B choice. Does variable X have a truth value as of our day 1?The bolded part is where your error is. If a god sees everything as the past, there are no future events. This god has infallible knowledge because everything has already happened. So free will isn't affected.
At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?
If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?
Then it's not much of a rebuttal simply to say that he doesn't actually know everything and cannot do everything, is it?The problem of free will is in response to claims that God knows everything and can do anything.
It demonstrates that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge.
Let's say variable X represents God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 A/B choice. Does variable X have a truth value as of our day 1?
I can't understand where you're coming from unless you answer my questions:You don't need to make it that complicated. We are bound by time such that we make our choices along with time. God however can anytime see the results, such that there's nothing unknown to Him including your future choices.
The meaning of your choices is for others to see who you are. Your choices are for the angels and chosen saints to witness who you are. God needs this witness to legitimately bring you to heaven, or not.
I wouldn't consider that a rebuttal, but a reconciliation.Then it's not much of a rebuttal simply to say that he doesn't actually know everything and cannot do everything, is it?
Please go back to the OP. I demonstrate it there. If there is something about the OP which you don't understand, please let me know.Nothing so far has demonstrated that it is impossible for him to have infallible foreknowledge. You merely have presented a hypothetical scenario in which God does not have foreknowledge.
Please go back to the OP. I demonstrate it there. If there is something about the OP which you don't understand, please let me know.
I can't understand where you're coming from unless you answer my questions:
At a point in time in the human timeline which is day 1, do you say it is true that God knows what Fred will choose on day 2?
If so and we call variable X God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice, would you say variable X has a truth value as of day 1?
So you agree X (or God's knowledge of Fred's day 2 a/b choice) has a truth value as of our day 1.Yes, X has a truth value. It would have a truth value not just on day 1, but on any day of the universe's existence. Because the event is always in the past.
If X represents my knowledge of my lunch choice yesterday, then it has a truth value as of my day 1 (yesterday). That does not mean that my free will was compromised when I made the choice.
I think you might be confusing yourself with your own equation.
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