The problem of evil

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

WashedClean, I think your post amounts to insisting that Christianity has written the best fantasy. That's not that impressive.
Norse mythology, though, cleans all evil from the world following Ragnarok. Also, the stories are better.

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When did this become a debate forum? This is a place for non-Christians to ask questions. You just seem to want to debate. All I stated was facts about what Christians believe. You can take it or leave it.

The response also insulted Christian beliefs, which is against forum rules.

RecoveringPhilosopher said:

WashedClean, I think your post amounts to insisting that Christianity has written the best fantasy. That's not that impressive.
Norse mythology, though, cleans all evil from the world following Ragnarok. Also, the stories are better.

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The premise of this whole thread is that the Christian concept of God is incompatible with the existence of evil. We Christians are responding by showing that the Christian concept of God, rightfully understood, is compatible with the existence of evil. That does not prove that the Christian concept of God is true. It just means that Christian doctrine of God does adequately explain how an all-loving, all powerful God can allow evil and suffering. By you interjecting that the Christian doctrine is nothing but a good fantasy, is going off on a tangient. If you want to discuss exidence that Christianity is true, please open up a separate topic and we will be happy to discuss that with you.

Keturah said:

But, this does not explain natural disasters.

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Do you want a Christian explanation of these events or a scientific explanation? Not that they must be different but, they each have a significantly different starting point so, despite the destination, there are inherent differences.

That *is* what I'm asking. The "problem of evil argument" (which isn't my argument btw) is basically asking how can a good, all-powerful god exist when there's suffering in this world because such a god would have the desire and the power to stop it.

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First, I can assure you that God does have the power to stop these natural disasters from coming to pass but I believe your confusion stems from your presumption that God's goodness is determined by whether He allows these events to transpire. Just because God has the power to stop a tornado doesn't mean He has the obligation or that stopping it from happening is necessarily in accord with His sovereign and eternal plan.

God bless

Hello Keturah,

Anyway, my question is...how do you explain the "natural evils" in this world? The suffering caused by earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados and other natural disasters?

Just so that you know where I'm coming from in this post: I believe that God created the world perfectly in the beginning but that we made a mess of it when Adam and Eve sinned against God and in effect told God that they wanted to decide truth for themselves and live a life independent of God. God then justly punished their sins as He warned Adam that He would and also gave them a taste of what they asked for - life without Him when He cursed the world.


Now, as for the natural disasters and the suffering that they bring, I can only say that they come as natural consequences of living in a sin-cursed and fallen world and in such a place, messed up things happen. While I do not believe that God causes them to occur, I do believe that He can use them to achieve His purposes and draw people to Himself.

Keturah said:

This is one of the main reasons I can't believe in god. For those that aren't familiar with "the problem of evil" a little intro...

Ok, it's pretty obvious that evil/suffering exists in this world. If god is defined as an omnipotent (all-powerful) and loving being then there should be no suffering if he exists. The problem of evil puts forth four possibilities. Either...

1) God is loving but not all-powerful. In other words, he doesn't want to see people suffering but is powerless to stop it. In which case, he sounds a bit similar to most human beings.

2) God is all-powerful but not loving. In other words, he has the power to stop suffering but doesn't want to. This God sounds more like the devil or something...certainly not a being I'd want to worship.

3) God is neither all-powerful nor loving. In which case, this being isn't very god like at all.

4) God doesn't exist.

So those are the options in the problem of evil argument. And obviously I've found it rather convincing (though this isn't the only reason why I don't believe anymore...it is a major roadblock).

So, onto my question. Some Christians believe that evil/suffering exists in this world because of humans sinning. Ok, valid point...I say "some Christians" because I'm not sure whether all Christians believe this though I can't recall any alternative viewpoints on where evil/suffering comes from. Anyway, my question is...how do you explain the "natural evils" in this world? The suffering caused by earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados and other natural disasters?

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Explaining the "natural evils" in this world is pretty easy when the Bible says that the whole world of creation "groans" under the weight of sin and death. Everything has been changed by the curse of sin and death like injecting chaos into that which was of better order as a reality. Whatever name that bit of chaos is called other than sin and death, science has even identified it in fractals and speaks of a chaos theory that drives the reality we live in now.
Before the fall of mankind, the dimensions man existed in were different. There was a meeting place between the spiritual and physical worlds called Eden, but after the fall, Adam and Eve were banned from that place, as they were warned, because sin and death are contrary to the nature of God and He will not dwell with or look on it forever.
The fall of mankind was necessary for many reasons other than choice, and the presense of evil has a use, foreordained by God, as contrast to that which is light. The light dispells the darkness, but the dark cannot dispell the light. Perhaps we can only learn or perceive that and other facts by the darkness, evil existing for at least a time. We are told that in the dimension(s) where the new heavens and earth will exist, there is no night of darkness.
Although evil is a terrible thing to behold when seen for its effects on mankind over time and history, it is still not beyond the power of God to change all of those bad things to good in the final outcome, as the first death is not the final outcome of man. Those that love Him and make the decision to trust in His power and provision are promised that the evil of sin and death will ultimately have no power over them. God can make evil turn out for good, and this is illustrated in the unjust death of His Son, God manifested in the flesh as Jesus, and then the resurrection from death so that all men everywhere would have the opportunity to regain eternal life and right standing with God. Ofcourse, not all want right standing with God as proved by lucifer and a 1/3 of the angels that rebelled against God and became the leading contrast to God's light over this world - deceiving the whole world with blindness. We twice belong to God. First He give us life and then purchases us back from death with His own life at the cross. Jesus felt those blows from the beatings and the nails in His hands and feet for us. Although He is God, He is also fully man, knowing pain and anguish of heart when evil comes and touches our lives and those of the world. He is not a God that has no understanding of the suffering and pain that evil brings to the world. He identified with man completely and withstood death so that the joy of seeing mankinds salvation would become reality.
I have used this simple illustration for some time now as a personal inmsight to why God allowed evil in His creation: that evil is like the black outline we use in painting that helps define the subject one would try to portray. An artist could never paint a self portrait or illustrate a painting by using white upon white. A full pallet of colors would be needed along with the absence of all light and color which is black. Although there is no light refected by black, it is the perfect contrast to light, giving definition and depth to the color of a subject when trying to show others the portrayal and feeling of the artist. To paint a masterpiece, God would have to create all the elements He would need to make it complete in beauty - including the contrasts and shades to His light.
For the time being, it seems that evil may consume the world and destroy all things, but God has promised us that He will redeem, save the world and even build a new heavens and earth - a new spiritual reality and a new physical one. Why does He delay? The Bible says so that all people can come to repentance, as it is not God's wish that any would perish from eternal death. God does not violate the choice of mankind and provided that choice long ago to Adam and Eve who fell. Even their fall brought about something great and wonderful because we, as man, now have the opportunity to partake of the divine nature of God through His Son, Jesus, and be family to God - Sons of God.
Until the day God says, enough, He will used all things, including those intended by man or the devil as evil, to work about good for those that love Him.

Ro 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

2Peter 3:9 ¶ The Lord isn’t really being slow about his promise to return, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to perish, so he is giving more time for everyone to repent.

Reformationist said:

First, I can assure you that God does have the power to stop these natural disasters from coming to pass but I believe your confusion stems from your presumption that God's goodness is determined by whether He allows these events to transpire. Just because God has the power to stop a tornado doesn't mean He has the obligation or that stopping it from happening is necessarily in accord with His sovereign and eternal plan.

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This is an important point. God's original design did not include suffering, struggle and death. The Fall and subsequent Curse was a worldwide catastrophe and the beginning of all natural and human depravity. Paul makes this clear.

Rom. 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 19 For the earnest expectation of the creation eagerly waits for the revealing of the sons of God. 20 For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; 21 because the creation itself also will be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. 22 For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. 23 Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

God has allowed us to be subjected to the fruits of sin for a time, believe it or not, for our sake. There's a beautiful picture of this in Luke's gospel. A father allows his son to leave his house with his inheritance. In essence, he allowed the son to break fellowship with him. But it is the suffering caused by his son's own hands that draws him back to his father.

Luke 15:11 Then He said: “A certain man had two sons. 12 “And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the portion of goods that falls to me.’ So he divided to them his livelihood. 13 “And not many days after, the younger son gathered all together, journeyed to a far country, and there wasted his possessions with prodigal living. 14 “But when he had spent all, there arose a severe famine in that land, and he began to be in want. 15 “Then he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country, and he sent him into his fields to feed swine. 16 “And he would gladly have filled his stomach with the pods that the swine ate, and no one gave him anything. 17 “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger! 18 ‘I will arise and go to my father, and will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you, 19 “and I am no longer worthy to be called your son. Make me like one of your hired servants.” ’ 20 “And he arose and came to his father. But when he was still a great way off, his father saw him and had compassion, and ran and fell on his neck and kissed him. 21 “And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and in your sight, and am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring out the best robe and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand and sandals on his feet. 23 ‘And bring the fatted calf here and kill it, and let us eat and be merry; 24 ‘for this my son was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ And they began to be merry.

Hope that helps.

Keturah said:

This is one of the main reasons I can't believe in god. For those that aren't familiar with "the problem of evil" a little intro...

Ok, it's pretty obvious that evil/suffering exists in this world. If god is defined as an omnipotent (all-powerful) and loving being then there should be no suffering if he exists. The problem of evil puts forth four possibilities. Either...

1) God is loving but not all-powerful. In other words, he doesn't want to see people suffering but is powerless to stop it. In which case, he sounds a bit similar to most human beings.

2) God is all-powerful but not loving. In other words, he has the power to stop suffering but doesn't want to. This God sounds more like the devil or something...certainly not a being I'd want to worship.

3) God is neither all-powerful nor loving. In which case, this being isn't very god like at all.

4) God doesn't exist.

So those are the options in the problem of evil argument. And obviously I've found it rather convincing (though this isn't the only reason why I don't believe anymore...it is a major roadblock).

So, onto my question. Some Christians believe that evil/suffering exists in this world because of humans sinning. Ok, valid point...I say "some Christians" because I'm not sure whether all Christians believe this though I can't recall any alternative viewpoints on where evil/suffering comes from. Anyway, my question is...how do you explain the "natural evils" in this world? The suffering caused by earthquakes, hurricanes, tornados and other natural disasters?

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"the problem of evil" as you say . . .



In a WORD:

• W A R

Check it out for yourself ,
in Sacred Scripture. . .



HEAVEN was at

• W A R

And we KNOW what WAR is LIKE
and every one of its' ramifications . . .

Natural disasters IMO are just part of the curse, as are diseases, and death in general.

There are three basic problems with the initial question.

1. If you don't like the Christian response, then what is your, presumably better explanation of all the suffereing we see? That fact requires some explanation, surely?

2. What about the existence of good - beauty, kindness, creativity etc etc?

3. Evil is a concept that implies some abstract existence. If there is no God then all that exists just is - pleasant-unpleasant, harmful-helpful, and so on. But never evil, as just like God Himself, that has no actual existence. Christians cannot give an answer to something that isn't. To call something evil in any meaningful way you must also introduce non material concepts.

John
NZ

Just a question here, regarding the OP.

Is anyone but me getting tired of this same old argument. "The Problem of Evil"

God Bless

Key

Key said:

Just a question here, regarding the OP.

Is anyone but me getting tired of this same old argument. "The Problem of Evil"

God Bless

Key

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i don't. because it shows that people are trying to seek their questions out, especially when things seem mixed up and contradictious to them.

it shows spiritual integrity, and no fear of being honest. it is a rare thing, and for people to stop questioning and seeking understanding because of the way the world is around them is to stop being human.

i hope the question keeps on coming. and i applaud the atheist, the agnostic, the pagan, the Christian, the Jew, and anyone else who does their best to see non-biased truth with everthing.

May God Bless all our hearts with all our struggles and we're here to help strengthen and guide and pray that God will lead them wherever His Will dictates, not where we think they should go.

tattedsaint said:

i don't. because it shows that people are trying to seek their questions out, especially when things seem mixed up and contradictious to them.

it shows spiritual integrity, and no fear of being honest. it is a rare thing, and for people to stop questioning and seeking understanding because of the way the world is around them is to stop being human.

i hope the question keeps on coming. and i applaud the atheist, the agnostic, the pagan, the Christian, the Jew, and anyone else who does their best to see non-biased truth with everthing.

May God Bless all our hearts with all our struggles and we're here to help strengthen and guide and pray that God will lead them wherever His Will dictates, not where we think they should go.

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I can see your point, but I still wonder, are they seeking an answer, or just seeking to argue.

The Argument of "The Problem of Evil" is one of the mmore tiresom arguments around.

I mean, for the most of the peoples lives in this earth, Life is not all that Bad, and yet this argument is based on the idea that our world is "Really that Bad" when we ignore that is also "Really that Good".

It is like looking at only one side of the situation, and saying "Why God have you put me in Pain" as oppsoed to "Why God have you done such wonder made such pleasure"

I never hear "The world has such wonder and awsomness to it, that God can't be real", and yet, for the most part, our world and our lives are quite good. We don't spend each day in fear, that we will suffer greatly simply by waking up.

That we will be raped, Struck down, or messed up in some way. Life is so Good, that we wake up and "Face another day of the same" that is testment to an awsome life that we can take it for granted.

Just my take on it.

But I see where you are comming from, and I respect you for that.

God Bless

Key

Online, a person has a chance to put all their thoughts out before someone else responds. I think it's a great place to ask these questions, even if they have a preconceived answer. It helps people avoid alienating their friends back home.

I tried to write a paper on this in ninth grade, and I got nowhere. My atheist teacher used my inconclusive data as an opportunity to rip apart my faith, and also my grade. (I was supposed to solve the world's problems in one term?)

I can see your point, but I still wonder, are they seeking an answer, or just seeking to argue.

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I was seeking an answer...not to argue. Don't assume that all atheists want to do is argue...if I'd just wanted to argue I would have posted this in GA. But no, I posted this in "Questions by Non-Christians"...a non-debate forum because I was seeking answers, seeking a way back to the faith I'd left behind.

Anyway, if you're fed up of this arguement...just let this thread die because I don't need answers to this question anymore. Check out my faith icon any you'll see I've returned to faith in God. Though it was hard personal experiences that brought me back rather than answers to my questions. I have come to accept that the answers are not always important...I'll probably die before I have all the answers to all my questions. Rather I should seek what is best for me here and now.

In citing my teacher's faith, I wasn't labeling her -- the experience was academically discouraging, and word seemed to spread.

Many of my best friends are atheists and agnostics, lol. And they rarely argue.

I think it was one comment that threw off the tone of the discussion. Just chalk it up to a normal day at the forum.

Keturah said:

I was seeking an answer...not to argue. Don't assume that all atheists want to do is argue...if I'd just wanted to argue I would have posted this in GA. But no, I posted this in "Questions by Non-Christians"...a non-debate forum because I was seeking answers, seeking a way back to the faith I'd left behind.

Anyway, if you're fed up of this arguement...just let this thread die because I don't need answers to this question anymore. Check out my faith icon any you'll see I've returned to faith in God. Though it was hard personal experiences that brought me back rather than answers to my questions. I have come to accept that the answers are not always important...I'll probably die before I have all the answers to all my questions. Rather I should seek what is best for me here and now.

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perhaps that is the best answer that could have ever been provided.

No ammount of words equals to that.

God Bless

Key