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The Pro-Vegetarianism Thread!

zoe_uu

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I thought we needed a thread to talk about vegetarian and vegan diets without the worry of ridicule I've seen in other threads. So please, only pro-vegetarian comments and questions here.

When did you become a vegetarian and what were your reasons for doing so?

What do you find easiest about being vegetarian and what is hard for you?

:groupray:
 

Macrina

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I've been a vegetarian for most of my life. As a child, I remember learning where meat came from -- and just being repulsed by the idea of eating flesh. At that point, when I was a very young child, my food preferences really changed. Later, when I was maybe 11 or 12, I made it "official." It was basically for compassion reasons, although since I had this anti-meat bias, it wasn't very hard to give up the few remaining items I hadn't been able to resist before (pepperoni, pastrami, hot dogs -- kid stuff).

As an adult, I have learned other reasons for vegetarianism, things which (aside from habit) are what keep me a vegetarian. Compassion, health, ethical, economic, environmental, etc. concerns all play into it.

I should mention that I don't think that *everybody* should be a vegetarian, and I don't try to change other people's eating habits. I have enough of a time trying to get people to respect my personal decisions!

My current goal is to develop better eating habits. I know vegetarianism is a very healthy diet when done correctly, but just like omnivorous diets it can be done poorly. I've always been much more likely to reach for a cheese pizza than for a salad -- which doesn't make me a very good poster child for the veggie diet. :) So if anyone would like to share tips on healthy vegetarian meals, especially quick-and-easy ones, I'd love to hear them!
 
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M

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Hi, I'm not exactly a vegetarian, but considering it. I really can't see why you would become one, other than the fact that animals we consume are mistreated, the way they are produced is sick and harmful to the environment. I can also see that the act of eating meat is gross, knowing that you are consuming the flesh of a once living organism is not a fun thought. But in nature, animals eat other animals. Humans have always eaten meat, it's a big part of our diet. I don't know where in the Bible it says we're not supposed to eat it. But other than for religious reasons, why is it a crime to kill and consume an animal? I can see why you think that abuse is wrong, by making animals suffer needlessly for their whole lives in a factory farm. But why is it evil to eat an animal? If animals are as significant as man, which I agree, then why should they be the only ones allowed to kill each other for food? It's just a fact of nature. but I don't think that we shouldn't try to stop suffering and try to make the world as civil and pleasant as we can.
 
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Macrina

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meteorologist said:
... I don't know where in the Bible it says we're not supposed to eat it. ...

I don't think that eating meat is a sin, or that Christians are required to be vegetarians, or anything like that. It's just a choice that I've made. I think it's a choice that is a legitimate option within the bounds of biblical living, but I don't think it is prescribed in scripture.

So I don't judge other people for what they choose to eat, and I ask that they not judge me for what I choose to put (or not put) in my body.
 
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Beastt

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meteorologist said:
Hi, I'm not exactly a vegetarian, but considering it. I really can't see why you would become one, other than the fact that animals we consume are mistreated, the way they are produced is sick and harmful to the environment...
...(snip)

You've asked a lot of questions here and many of them are those quite commonly asked. I'm going to try to answer some of them for you and I'll try to be as delicate as I can be while not avoiding some important but little-known truths.

SUFFERING
You seem to be very well connected with the fact that the human consumption of meat leads to cruelty and suffering on the part of the animals. Perhaps I've misunderstood what you've said but it seems that you see only a small problem in that. If I'm wrong about that, I'll apologize ahead of time.

Most people don't grasp the full aspect of the cruelty and suffering involved. To be honest, many others don't seem to care. But if you could follow a single animal from it's birth or hatching through the meat production of factory farming, I doubt you would be able to sit down to a table and consume the now lifeless body of that animal. Even the simple chicken is treated with a disrespect unbefitting any living creature. From the moment of birth the processing begins. Since they will be housed in quarters which press them together, it is necessary that the tip of the beak be removed to lessen their ability to peck one another. This is usually done with a mechanized hot knife which slices through the beak of several chicks per second. Often the tip of the tongue is caught in the knife as well. The smoke from the birds own burned tissues fill its nostrils and often the beak twists slightly making the cut uneven and eating difficult if not impossible.

Imagine if you can, being in a crowded elevator. You stand shoulder to shoulder with the other passengers with no room to even take a small step. Now imagine being in that elevator for your whole life. Federal law, (in the United States) requires that each bird have 2-square feet of space in which to live its life. It's not infrequent to find this law ignored. Some years back McDonald's was facing another in a series of court orders to comply with this minimal space per bird. Last I heard, McDonald's had still failed to comply and continued rasing chickens in quarters which offered only .55 square feet of space for each animal to live its entire life. Even with 2-square feet, some birds will be forced into corners where they will be unable to move. Some must have their feet cut away from the wire on which they stand before they can be sent to the processing plant, because they have been unable to move and have stood in the same place for so long that the flesh on their feet has actually grown around the wire. Think back to the last time you stood in uncomfortable shoes for a few hours. Is there any comparison? By the time they're ready for slaughter, most of these chickens are unable to stand at all because the muscles have atrophied and the joints have failed. I'll spare you the details for now but pigs, sheep and cattle are treated no better.

ANIMALS EAT OTHER ANIMALS, WHY SHOULDN'T WE?
What you've said is widely known. Many animals do eat other animals so the question is a good one. Why shouldn't humans take their place along side the other omnivorous animals and continue to eat other species?

The answer raises a lot of criticism but I find the data to be indisputable. We're not omnivores. Despite what we were taught in school and despite what our great grandparents, grandparents and parents all thought, we're herbivores. I know that sounds like a strong statement and most will begin to object immediately. But there are ways to tell what animals are designed to eat. The physiological traits are quite well established by nutritionists, biologists, naturalists, paleontologists and archaeologist. Animals which are designed to catch and consume other animals are born with the tools they need to perform such actions. Among mammals these usually come in the form of specialized teeth and claws. Do humans have claws? No, we have fingernails which are useless for the function of piercing hide and establishing a grip on a struggling animal. Certainly we do have teeth and we even have teeth we call "canines". But if you look at the function of a true canine tooth, and then apply that function to the teeth in the human mouth, you find that our canines could not pierce tough animal skin. Nor could our canines provide the grip necessary to hold an animal. Even the size and shape of our mouths display the characteristics of an animal not designed to eat meat. We lack the wide gaping maw of an animal capable of hunting successfully.

There are those who will argue that we have a brain which enabled us to develop weapons to overcome the lack of these built-in hunting tools, but that illustrates the point more than offering an argument. Nature provides us with what we need and we weren't provided with a body designed to consume flesh. As far as physiology goes, that's just the tip of the iceburg. Other human characteristics which help to classify us as herbivores include; jaw structure, jaw hinge location, salivary glands, quantity of saliva produced, pH of saliva, enzymes in the saliva, facial (biting) muscles, jaw motion, quantity of stomach acid, stomach capacity, importance of chewing in digestion, length of digestive tract, routing of digestive tract, internal colon contours, liver's ability to detoxify vitamin-A, and the concentration levels of the urine. All of these traits and more suggest that we are naturally herbivores. I'll include a picture of some teeth in a followup post. Take a look and decide for yourself about what it tells you.

"The grading of forms, organic functions, customs and diets showed in an evident way that the normal food of man is vegetable like the anthropoids and apes and that our canine teeth are less developed than theirs and that we are not destined to compete with wild beasts or carnivorous animals." -- Charles Darwin

Whether or not you believe in the process of evolution which Darwin brought to the forefront, his observations here are those of a biologist -- one who studies life and specializes in the classification of life forms. Darwin was sufficiently convinced that he himself, became a vegetarian.

HUMANS HAVE ALWAYS EATEN MEAT
This is a very common argument to suggest that meat consumption is natural for mankind. But is it really an argument? Does it raise a valid point? Man has always waged war on one another, raped, stolen, kidnapped and defrauded his fellow man. Does this mean we are intended to do so or that if we were to discontinue such practices that it would cause harm to the lot of mankind? Or does it mean that we have, throughout our history, acted on some poor assumptions and ignored what many of us seen to instinctively know - that we have the capacity to act out of conscience and not ignore our natural understanding of right and wrong.

MEAT IS A BIG PART OF OUR DIET
This is true but not for all parts of the world and not for all cultures. This turns out to be a wonderful research tool and one that hasn't been ignored. As you look around the world you find many cultures which are vegetarian or mostly vegetarian and they lack many of the things we have. Mostly they lack strokes, heart attack, diabetes, our cancer rates and our preventable death rate. Placing meat as the central focus of the diet introduces a vastly increased level of fats, particularly, saturated fats into the diet. As you check the various parts of the world and plot a chart showing the death rate from colon cancer and the quantity of fats consumed, you quickly find that wherever fat consumption is highest, the death rate from colon cancer is also highest. Where fat consumption is lowest, the death rate from colon cancer is lowest. The larger the role of meat in the human diet, the greater the incidence of heart attack, stroke, cancer and diabetes. If you check the causes of death in the United States, you find that they account for well more than half of all deaths. In 2001 and 2002, in the U.S., those four diseases were responsible for more than 77% of all deaths. And all of those diseases are most prevalent where meat consumption is the highest. So yes, meat is a big part of our diet. But that only further illustrates what is wrong with the human consumption of meat.

THE BIBLE DOESN'T SAY WE SHOULDN'T
Just as many won't hold much value in Darwin's findings, others won't hold much value in the Bible when it tells us we may eat meat. But if you read Genesis, particularly 1:29, you find that God clearly outlined what he wanted man to eat in paradise. Meat wasn't mentioned. Most agree that God's original plan for man's diet was a vegetarian diet. Since we already know that all animals are designed for a specific type of diet, can we find any biblical reference to God redesigning man to be able to handle meat consumption without suffering a greater risk of disease and a shortened life? I've never seen one. And the strong correlation between meat consumption and fatal diseases along with what we've already covered about man's physiology suggests that we still have a body designed for a vegetarian diet.

IS IT A CRIME TO KILL AND EAT AN ANIMAL?
The word "crime" has to do with man's laws. Those differ from continent to continent, from country to country and from state to state. Even within states laws may vary from county to county or region to region. But it's true that in most places, there is nothing criminal about killing and consuming animals. In fact, in the U.S. where we do have laws to restrict cruelty toward animals, livestock are specifically excluded from those laws. So it's not criminal. But is it right? Is it right to knowingly cause or promote cruelty toward another living creature when it provides us with a greater opportunity for serious disease and a shorter life, filled with more suffering?

"But for the sake of some little mouthful of flesh, we deprive a soul of the sun and light and of that proportion of life and time it had been born into the world to enjoy." -- Plutarch

"A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his appetite. And to act so is immoral."-- Leo Tolstoy

Plutarch, Tolstoy, Plato, Pythagorus, and Socrates were all vegetarians.

WHY IS IT EVIL TO EAT AN ANIMAL?
Personally, I have trouble with the word "evil". I tend to prefer seeing things as either right, wrong or neutral. So I can only address whether it is right or wrong to eat an animal. Medical/nutritional research has already established that it's the wrong thing to do for human health. But I suspect you're looking for something a bit deeper than that when you ask this question. So let's take a look at natural human compassion. When we are born, we seem to have a natural compassion for other living things. As we grow, we are often taught that this natural compassion is childish or impractical and often, especially in the case of males, we are taught that we aren't manly unless we abandon the compassion we naturally feel for animals.

I won't suggest that anyone actually try this little experiement, but I think in walking it through we can pretty well imagine the outcome. If you have small children in your home, preferrably 4 to 6 years old, bring home a carrot. If possible it should have the tops still on and perhaps still have a bit of soil clinging to it. Offer it to your child or children to play with. Chances are they won't play for long but whether they do or not is beside the point. Once they've had some contact with the carrot, pick it up and rip the stalks and leafy portions off and observe the reaction of the child. Wash the carrot off and slice it into pieces. Then offer them to the child to eat and see what their reaction is.

Now bring home a small rabbit and allow the child to play with the rabbit. After a time pull the rabbit away and quickly twist the head to break the rabbit's neck. (Again, I ask that you imagine this, and request you not actually do it.) Then take a knife, (the same one you used on the carrot will work.) and begin to skin and gut the rabbit in front of the child. Then cut up the carcass, cook it while the child watches and offer them some of the cooked meat to eat. Observe their reactions thoughout the process.

Now bring home a small fluffy mouse and offer it to your kitten. Will the kitten play with it as it would another kitten or will it instantly show its predatory nature and begin to hunt, stalk torment and "play" with the mouse without any signs of compassion toward it?

Animals who naturally eat meat show no signs of natural compassion toward those animals which provide a food source. The natural compassion still found in young children suggests that we feel a kinship, and a sorrow for the suffering or death of most any other animal. Our compassion betrays our true nature. How many times do we watch a heart-warming television program depicting how a community comes together to rescue a dog from a sewer pipe or a horse or deer from a mud bog? Then we turn off the television and take a quick trip to McDonald's to consume a lunch made from creatures very much like the ones we just spent half an hour offering hopes, perhaps even prayers for because we didn't want to see it suffer or die. We practice a kind of denial and separation in order to consume animals. We do this to protect our psyche from the trauma of the acts promoted by our food choices.

"You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed in the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity." -- Ralph Waldo Emerson "Fate", The Conduct of Life, 1860

I hope that helps to answer some of your questions and perhaps gives you a bit more insight as to why some people choose to eliminate animal flesh from their diets.
 
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Beastt

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Where do you think the human teeth fit?
 

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Beastt

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VegitarianKitty said:
I've been a vegitarian for 3 years....
Beacause I feel bad for the animals and trust them more than I do some people and I have chickens and really don't like the fact of eating something when there is one of them in my front yard.

Being aware of the direct connection is certainly a good thing. I can only imagine that many are able to severe that connection somehow and not directly associate the creatures walking, breeding and caring for their young, with those lumps of flesh behind the plastic wrap in the grocery store.

As disturbing as it is that so many are capable of practicing such a level of denial on a steady basis, the truly scary ones are those who don't!
 
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vedickings

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Beastt said:
Being aware of the direct connection is certainly a good thing. I can only imagine that many are able to severe that connection somehow and not directly associate the creatures walking, breeding and caring for their young, with those lumps of flesh behind the plastic wrap in the grocery store.

As disturbing as it is that so many are capable of practicing such a level of denial on a steady basis, the truly scary ones are those who don't!
I've notice that alot of christians say they are following a spiritual path of Jesus Christ, but yet eat lots of animals (flesh). So how is it that they are following a spiritual path by killing?
 
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Beastt

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vedickings said:
I've notice that alot of christians say they are following a spiritual path of Jesus Christ, but yet eat lots of animals (flesh). So how is it that they are following a spiritual path by killing?

In my experience the usual response is to quote some other parts of the Bible to support their belief that they were told by God to consume animals. From what I've seen, the Bible can be used to support or deny just about anything from killing to slavery to wife-beating. Anything you wish to believe can be read into the Bible. So what it all boils down to is that they do what they wish to do and attempt to support those decisions with a text which constantly contradicts itself. It allows almost any belief because if you don't like what it says, you can just change a few words or find a place where it says something else.
 
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vedickings

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Beastt said:
In my experience the usual response is to quote some other parts of the Bible to support their belief that they were told by God to consume animals. From what I've seen, the Bible can be used to support or deny just about anything from killing to slavery to wife-beating. Anything you wish to believe can be read into the Bible. So what it all boils down to is that they do what they wish to do and attempt to support those decisions with a text which constantly contradicts itself. It allows almost any belief because if you don't like what it says, you can just change a few words or find a place where it says something else.
Very true indeed. :thumbsup:
 
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ChrisWins

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Greetings...

Hello. I have at least one question, maybe a few sub-questions if there is such a thing, okay? First off, I respect peoples' vegetarianism and also anyone's choice to not contribute to the harming of any of God's creatures. That's beautiful and I thank you for it. I am sickened at mistreatment of animals and at one time I used to be against killing for food. Nowadays I am not against killing for food so long as it is humane, so long as it is not taken for granted, so long as God is thanked for providing the animal, and so long as it is primarily necessary to have this animal as food.

But is it necessary to kill God's creation for food? There are people native to many lands all along the Arctic Circle and above (just one example I am using.) These people are not white and of European ancestry. They, like I said, are native. They kill for food. For so long they have done this as usual, year in, year out, century in, century out. They have killed reindeer and muskox, grizzly and polar bear, seal, walrus, & whale.

They did not know about Christ. Many still do not know about Christ. Those that do not know Christ or of his teachings I believe they can be excused.

Those natives that do know Christ's teachings of kindness - should they stop killing for food? Should they just get vegetables from the grocery store? There aren't any grocery stores. Should they have vegetables imported to eat? They can't afford that. Should they grow their own vegetables in their own gardens? In the Arctic? Good luck. Okay, maybe they should move to a place where they can get a job to be able to afford vegetables?

What's the answer?

Thank you & God Bless :)
Chris

(p.s. if this is a bad place for this to be asked then I am sorry and please recommend where it can be posted and debated... if there's anything to debate. Thanks.)
 
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Beastt

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ChrisWinston said:
Greetings...

Hello. I have at least one question, maybe a few sub-questions if there is such a thing, okay? First off, I respect peoples' vegetarianism and also anyone's choice to not contribute to the harming of any of God's creatures. That's beautiful and I thank you for it. I am sickened at mistreatment of animals and at one time I used to be against killing for food. Nowadays I am not against killing for food so long as it is humane, so long as it is not taken for granted, so long as God is thanked for providing the animal, and so long as it is primarily necessary to have this animal as food.

But is it necessary to kill God's creation for food? There are people native to many lands all along the Arctic Circle and above (just one example I am using.) These people are not white and of European ancestry. They, like I said, are native. They kill for food. For so long they have done this as usual, year in, year out, century in, century out. They have killed reindeer and muskox, grizzly and polar bear, seal, walrus, & whale.

They did not know about Christ. Many still do not know about Christ. Those that do not know Christ or of his teachings I believe they can be excused.

Those natives that do know Christ's teachings of kindness - should they stop killing for food? Should they just get vegetables from the grocery store? There aren't any grocery stores. Should they have vegetables imported to eat? They can't afford that. Should they grow their own vegetables in their own gardens? In the Arctic? Good luck. Okay, maybe they should move to a place where they can get a job to be able to afford vegetables?

What's the answer?

Thank you & God Bless :)
Chris

(p.s. if this is a bad place for this to be asked then I am sorry and please recommend where it can be posted and debated... if there's anything to debate. Thanks.)

Although I appreciate your concern, I can't think of a better place for such a question to be asked. Your question is appreciated.

I can only answer this for myself. Others might have better replies. As I see it, there are many places on this planet which are simply not consistent with human habitation. We can, of course, inhabit just about anyplace on the planet because we have become so well versed at manipulating our environment. But that doesn't mean that it's okay to live wherever we choose, especially when that choice means squandering the lives of other creatures. The places you mentioned, as well as some you didn't, can only be inhabited by man if animals are used as a food source. Since man, is by nature, a herbivore, to live in these places requires that man abandon his true nature and the animals end up paying for this decision. I know this doesn't provide any easy answers for the people already living in such habitats, but they could never have lived there in the first place if they had not turned to the animals for a food source. Studies have shown that the Eskimos, for example, live very short lives as a result of the food they consume. Their diet is almost pure saturated fat and cholesterol. It's not good for the people and it's certainly not good for the animals. How to move them to more hospitable regions is a much tougher question and I'm sure most would not want to leave what they consider to be their homeland.

I would also like to take a moment to respond to your comments concerning humane killing and the concept that God provided animals for man. The former is an interesting concept. In my opinion, it's a concept that can only survive in the mind of man if constant denial is practiced. How quickly would men accept the "humane" killing of their children? What is humane about killing? There are many ways to take the life of another creature and some involve more suffering than others but the end result is always to deprive another living being of its very life, and there is nothing humane in doing so.

I understand that a great many people believe that God exists and that he granted us with 10 commandments and, after the failure of the Garden of Eden, he consented to letting man eat meat. If we may assume that this is true, then we must consider that man still has a body which was never designed for the consumption of meat. This is supported by what we know about man's physiology and the physiology of other animals. We also have the fifth commandment which believers of the Bible have had to deny and rewrite in order to continue their omnivorous life styles. When one must take editorial license with the "word of God" in order to accept the word of God, is there any true belief being practiced?

It's obvious by your post that you have a strong belief in God and presumably, a strong belief in the Bible. But I think for the sake of argument, it's fair to point out that God and the Bible are still based on theory. What if these theories are incorrect? I know for those with a strong belief that's a difficult position from which to consider the questions at hand, but from a logistics standpoint, it's not an improper position. If the teachings of the Bible are not correct, then these instructions, stories and teachings of the Bible are a poor substitute for what we know about the human body and specifically the human digestive system. We also know that human compassion is unlike that found in animals who are designed with digestive systems consistent with the consumption of animal flesh. In addition to that, man's insistance upon eating animals has placed the environment in a state which cannot be maintained. With over 1.6 billion cattle on the planet, the forests of North America are being destroyed to accomodate them. But even this isn't enough. Many are aware of the destruction of the rain forests in South America, but few are aware of the reason for this intentional destruction. It is, more than any other reason, done to raise cattle to provide North America with cheap beef. We are literally letting our lust for animal flesh eat us off the planet. We continue to feed the vast majority of the crops we grow to animals, while tens of thousands starve to death every year. Was this God's plan?

So to summarize, if people can continue to live in inhospitable regions and can do so without trading the lives of animals for their choice of a home, then I see nothing wrong with them doing so. But if the only way for them to survive in such regions is to let animals pay the price, then I cannot condone such a choice. Even if God exists and told man that he could consume he flesh of animals, clearly, the design of man's body and the planet we inhabit are inconsistent with such a practice. If God does not exist, then what the Bible tells us comes only from other men and we must look at our bodies and our enviroment realistically.

I hope that helps to answer your questions.
 
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ChrisWins

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Thanks for your thoughts. First of all, pertaining to Eskimos and their diet:

"observations of Arctic explorers that the Eskimos, despite a very high fat diet, rarely had coronary heart disease was buttressed by Dyerberg and Bang, two Danish scientists who explored the prevalence of heart disease in Greenland Eskimos (1,2). They found that the Greenland Eskimos had a much lower rate of coronary heart disease than Danes living side by side with them in Greenland . The Danes, of course, ate the Western diet, high in cholesterol and saturated fat, and had a high incidence of coronary heart disease, whereas the Eskimos ate their traditional diet from the sea: fish, whale and seal. Dyerberg and Bang pointed to the difference in the kind of fat which the Eskimos ate compared to the Danes. The Eskimos were consuming the n-3 fatty acids with high concentrations of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). These fatty acids are very long chain and highly polyunsaturated, quite different from the saturated fat found in the Danish diet. Later, the Eskimos were found to have high blood levels of EPA and DHA. These fatty acids seemed to produce an anti-blood clotting effect as well."

http://www.americanlongevity.net/misc/HeartandEFA.php

Eskimos are generally healthier than most westerners. I'm not saying healthier than organic food eaters but generally most westerners. What God provides them to eat is healthy for the human body!

"Native peoples the world over consume high amounts of animal fats with no incidence of heart disease. For example, the Masai and related tribes of East Africa subsist largely on beef, whole milk, and blood. Yemenite Jews eat a diet containing fats solely of animal origin, yet have an almost zero incidence of heart disease and hypertension. Peoples living in northern India consume 17 times more animal fat, but have an incidence of CVD seven times LOWER than in southern India.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica]Eskimos eat liberal amounts of animal fats, both from fish and marine mammals, yet, as long as they stay on their native diet, enjoy freedom from CVD, obesity, osteoporosis, diabetes, and cancer. Several Mediterranean societies are free of CVD, even though fat consumption accounts for up to 70% of their diet."

http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/

[CVD = Cardiovascular Disease (coronary heart disease, hypertension, stroke)]

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[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica] Something must be right 125 miles north of me up there in the Arctic. Perhaps I should move to Barrow and adopt an Inuit diet because I can't afford a vegetarian lifestyle at the prices fruits and vegetables costs here in Alaska's Interior.

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[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica]Should all people in towns across the northern hemisphere like Fairbanks, Alaska be relocated because food prices are too expensive to not eat meat? Should all Arctic natives be relocated because they eat animals. The world that they would be introduced to isn't overall a healthy one; you'd be introducing them to a myriad of health problems they were previously, for the most part, living without.

Anyone else believe Arctic natives should be relocated, taught jobs to earn money so they can afford non-animal food?
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PACKY

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HERE ARE SOME QUOTES THAT I WOULD LIKE TO SHARE WITH ALL OFYOU:

A dead cow or sheep lying in the pasture is recognized as carrion. The same sort
of carcass dressed and hung up in a butcher's stall passes as food.
-- J.H. Kellogg
A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he
eats meat, he participates in taking animal life merely for the sake of his
appetite. And to act so is immoral.
-- Leo Tolstoy
And when I think of the suffering of the creatures in our factory farms,
laboratories, puppy mills, or of any animal neglected or mistreated by man, for
me there is no more powerful question than to ask: "What would the Good Shepherd
think of this?"
-- Matthew Scully
Animals are more than ever a test of our character, of mankind's capacity for
empathy and for decent, honorable conduct and faithful stewardship.... We are
called to treat them with kindness, not because they have rights or power or
some claim to equality, but in a sense because they don't; because they all
stand unequal and powerless before us.
-- Matthew Scully

"Calves are adorable," as columnist David Plotz expressed it in Slate magazine,
"but veal is delicious. God gave man dominion over the beasts of the Earth (and)
if any animal has economic utility, we should farm it." Actually, if we are
going to get pious about it, God gave us lots of things, and one of them is
conscience. Veal, no matter what seasonings cover it, or what sanctimony defends
it, does not carry the "taste of elegance." Veal carries, as Alice Walker
observes, "the taste of a bitter life."
-- Matthew Scully
Do we, as humans, having an ability to reason and to communicate abstract ideas
verbally and in writing, and to form ethical and moral judgments using the
accumulated knowledge of the ages, have the right to take the lives of other
sentient organisms, particularly when we are not forced to do so by hunger or
dietary need, but rather do so for the somewhat frivolous reason that we like
the taste of meat? In essence, should we know better?
-- Peter Cheeke
Flesh-eating is simply immoral, as it involves the performance of an act which
is contrary to moral feeling--killing.
-- Leo Tolstoy
I do not want to make my stomach a graveyard of dead animals.
-- George Bernard Shaw
I don`t hold animals superior or even equal to humans. The whole case for
behaving decently to animals rests on the fact that we are the superior species.
We are the species uniquely capable of imagination, rationality, and moral
choice - and that is precisely why we are under an obligation to recognize and
respect the rights of animals.
-- Brigid Brophy

If slaughterhouses had glass walls, everyone would be vegetarian. We feel better
about ourselves and better about the animals, knowing we're not contributing to
their pain.
-- Paul and Linda McCartney
If you declare that you are naturally designed for such a diet, then first kill
for yourself what you want to eat. Do it, however, only through your own
resources, unaided by cleaver or cudgel or any kind of ax.
-- Plutarch
I know a "crime against nature" when I see one. It is usually a sign of crimes
against nature that we cannot bear to see them at all, that we recoil and hide
our eyes, and no one has cringed at the sight of a soybean factory.
-- Matthew Scully
I know, in my soul, that to eat a creature who is raised to be eaten, and who
never has a chance to be a real being, is unhealthy. It's like...you're just
eating misery. You're eating a bitter life.
-- Alice Walker
I look my age. It is the other people who look older than they are. What can you
expect from people who eat corpses?
-- George Bernard Shaw
In all the round world of Utopia there is no meat. There used to be. But now we
cannot stand the thought of slaughterhouses. And, in a population that is all
educated, and at about the same level of physical refinement, it is practically
impossible to find anyone who will hew a dead ox or pig... I can still remember
as a boy the rejoicings over the closing of the last slaughterhouse.
-- H.G. Wells

In protecting animals, it is always just one step from the mainstream to the
fringe. To condemn the wrong is obvious, to suggest its abolition radical.
-- Matthew Scully
I think there will come a time, and this is down the road a great many years,
when civilized people will look back in horror on our generation and the ones
that have preceded it: the idea that we should eat other living things running
around on four legs, that we should raise them just for the purpose of killing
them! The people of the future will say, 'meat-eaters!' in disgust and regard us
in the same way that we regard cannibals and cannibalism.
-- Dennis Weaver
It's also worth recalling that people can agree on the same objectives for
different reasons: A secular philosopher like Peter Singer can oppose factory
farming because it's unethical by his theories of justice. An environmentalist
can oppose factory farming because it's reckless stewardship. A conservative can
oppose factory farming because it is destructive to small farmers and to the
decent ethic of husbandry those farmers live by. A religious person can oppose
factory farming because it is degrading to both man and animal -- an offense to
God.
-- Matthew Scully

My mother thought it would make us feel better to know animals had no souls and
thus their deaths were not to be taken seriously. But it didn't help and when I
think of some of the animals I've known, I wonder. The only really "soulful"
eyes in the world belong to the dog or cat who sits on your lap or at your feet
commiserating when you cry.
-- Liz Smith
My refusing to eat flesh occasioned an inconveniency, and I was frequently
chided for my singularity, but, with this lighter repast, I made the greater
progress, for greater clearness of head and quicker comprehension
-- Benjamin Franklin
Nonviolence leads to the highest ethics, which is the goal of all evolution.
Until we stop harming all living beings, we are all savages.
-- Thomas Edison
Nothing more strongly arouses our disgust than cannibalism, yet we make the same
impression on Buddhists and vegetarians, for we feed on babies, though not our
own.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
People often say that humans have always eaten animals, as if this is a
justification for continuing the practice. According to this logic, we should
not try to prevent people from murdering other people, since this has also been
done since the earliest of times.
-- Isaac Bashevis Singer
Poor animals! How jealously they guard their pathetic bodies... that which to us
is merely an evening's meal, but to them is life itself.
-- T. Casey Brennan

Torturing animals to prolong human life has separated science from the most
important thing that life has produced - the human conscience.
-- John Cowper Powys
[T]he standard vegetarian argument that the average person eats meat, and yet
could not bear to see how it was produced, actually speaks well for the average
person. Imagine a world in which most people enjoyed hearing and seeing the
details.
-- Matthew Scully
Truly man is the king of beasts, for his brutality exceeds them. We live by the
death of others. We are burial places! I have since an early age abjured the use
of meat...
-- Leonardo da Vinci
Various philosophers and religious leaders tried to convince their disciples and
followers that animals are nothing more than machines without a soul, without
feelings. However, anyone who has ever lived with an animal--be it a dog, a
bird, or even a mouse--knows that this theory is a brazen lie, invented to
justify cruelty.
-- Isaac Bashevis Singer
We are all God's creatures--that we pray to God for mercy and justice while we
continue to eat the flesh of animals that are slaughtered on our account is not
consistent.
-- Isaac Bashevis Singer
We consume the carcasses of creatures of like appetites, passions and organs
with our own, and fill the slaughterhouses daily with screams of pain and fear.
-- Robert Louis Stevenson
We have found ways never before imagined to torture and maim animals and make
their lives a misery, almost a living hell for many thousands locked in cages in
the multinational food industry, in government establishments devoted to finding
the newest and best weapons for humans to kill each other, and in laboratories
where often the most important thing being researched is the latest in lipstick
or face cream.
-- David Oderberg

We pray on Sundays that we may have light
To guide our footsteps on the path we tread;
We are sick of war, we don't want to fight,
And yet we gorge ourselves upon the dead.
-- George Bernard Shaw
When a man wantonly destroys one of the works of man, we call him a vandal. When
he wantonly destroys one of the works of God, we call him a sportsman.
-- Joseph Wood Krutch
You can't eat your friends and have them too.
-- Franz Kafka
You have just dined, and however scrupulously the slaughterhouse is concealed to
the graceful distance of miles, there is complicity.
-- Ralph Waldo Emerson
You put a baby in a crib with an apple and a rabbit. If it eats the rabbit and
plays with the apple, I'll buy you a new car.
-- Harvey Diamond

PLEASE THINK ABOUT THIS; CHANGE IS NEVER EASY AND THE ACCEPTANCE OF NEW IDEAS AND THOUGHT IS AT TIMES HARD TO ACCEPT; REMEMBER CHRIST WAS CONSIDERED A RADICAL DUE TO HIS TEACHINGS,,,,,,,
 
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Beastt

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ChrisWinston said:
Thanks for your thoughts. First of all, pertaining to Eskimos and their diet:

"observations of Arctic explorers that the Eskimos, despite a very high fat diet, rarely had coronary heart disease was buttressed by Dyerberg and Bang, two Danish scientists who explored the prevalence of heart disease in Greenland Eskimos (1,2). They found that the Greenland Eskimos had a much lower rate of coronary heart disease than Danes living side by side with them in Greenland . The Danes, of course, ate the Western diet, high in cholesterol and saturated fat, and had a high incidence of coronary heart disease, whereas the Eskimos ate their traditional diet from the sea: fish, whale and seal. Dyerberg and Bang pointed to the difference in the kind of fat which the Eskimos ate compared to the Danes. The Eskimos were consuming the n-3 fatty acids with high concentrations of EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid) and DHA (docosahexaenoic acid). These fatty acids are very long chain and highly polyunsaturated, quite different from the saturated fat found in the Danish diet. Later, the Eskimos were found to have high blood levels of EPA and DHA. These fatty acids seemed to produce an anti-blood clotting effect as well."

http://www.americanlongevity.net/misc/HeartandEFA.php

Eskimos are generally healthier than most westerners. I'm not saying healthier than organic food eaters but generally most westerners. What God provides them to eat is healthy for the human body!

"Native peoples the world over consume high amounts of animal fats with no incidence of heart disease. For example, the Masai and related tribes of East Africa subsist largely on beef, whole milk, and blood. Yemenite Jews eat a diet containing fats solely of animal origin, yet have an almost zero incidence of heart disease and hypertension. Peoples living in northern India consume 17 times more animal fat, but have an incidence of CVD seven times LOWER than in southern India.

[font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica]Eskimos eat liberal amounts of animal fats, both from fish and marine mammals, yet, as long as they stay on their native diet, enjoy freedom from CVD, obesity, osteoporosis, diabetes, and cancer. Several Mediterranean societies are free of CVD, even though fat consumption accounts for up to 70% of their diet."

http://www.nursingceu.com/NCEU/courses/diet/

[CVD = Cardiovascular Disease (coronary heart disease, hypertension, stroke)]

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[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica] Something must be right 125 miles north of me up there in the Arctic. Perhaps I should move to Barrow and adopt an Inuit diet because I can't afford a vegetarian lifestyle at the prices fruits and vegetables costs here in Alaska's Interior.

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[/font][font=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif][font=Arial, Helvetica]Should all people in towns across the northern hemisphere like Fairbanks, Alaska be relocated because food prices are too expensive to not eat meat? Should all Arctic natives be relocated because they eat animals. The world that they would be introduced to isn't overall a healthy one; you'd be introducing them to a myriad of health problems they were previously, for the most part, living without.

Anyone else believe Arctic natives should be relocated, taught jobs to earn money so they can afford non-animal food?
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It would appear that as with most kinds of research, there are some inconsistencies with what is reported. I tend to feel that once you do a bit of research on how atherosclerosis begins and progresses toward MIs and CVAs, (heart attacks and strokes), that the consumption of large quantities of saturated fats and cholesterol can do nothing but increase one's chances of premature death.

The Eskimos, Laplanders, the Greenlanders and the Russian Kurgi tribes stand out as the world's populations with the highest consumption of animal flesh. They also display the lowest life expectancies in the world, often as little as 30 years.
[Kapleau, Philip, "To Cherish All Life," Harpur and Row, San Francisco, 1981, pg 67]

Other peoples living in harsh conditions but subsisting on little or no animal flesh have some of the highest life expectancies in the world. The Russian Caucasians, Yucatan Indians, East Indian Todas and Pakistan Hunzakuts have life expectancies of 90 to 100 years.
[Kapleau, Philip, "To Cherish All Life," Harpur and Row, San Francisco, 1981, pg 67]

As has been pointed out by Dr. William Castelli and others, there are a number of people who have a very strong interest in clouding the information concerning the health benefits of reducing the intake of animal-products. When you think about it, entire corporations could potentially face dramatic reductions in sales. They have some very strong reasons for wishing to twist and distort the data. On the other side of the issue are those who support vegetarianism. It's worth asking what it is they stand to gain by misrepresentation or distortion of the facts. As pointed out by John Robbins in his book, Diet for a New America, often when a number of studies all point to one conclusion and a single or numerically inferior number of studies suggest the exact opposite, a little research into who funded the minority studies will offer a strong potential explanation.

I know of two such situations in which the courts after calling upon the testimony of neutral expert witnesses, rendered decisions regarding the validity of contrasting reports. In the first the egg industry was attempting to suggest that cholesterol consumption had little or nothing to do with serum cholesterol. In the second the Dairy Council was offering non-factual health information regarding their product which they based on research they themselves had funded. In both cases, based on the testimony of expert witnesses, the courts ruled overwhelmingly against the data offered by the industries which funded the connected studies.
 
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