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The presumption of rationalism

griggs1947

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We rationalists rely on the presumption of rationalism that reason rather than faith is our tool to acquire knowledge. Reason can move mountains of ignorance whereas faith rests on the argument from ignorance.
Faith is the we just say so of credulity. It begs the question of its subject, which it cannot instantiate. Science is acquired knowledge, remarks Sydney Hook whereas faith begs the question of being knowledge.:thumbsup:
Reason requires as W.K. Clifford proclaims adequate evidence. Nay, ti would not impede in our lives as we don't require evidence for most matters or just a little. Now the supernatural and the paranormal do indeed require much evidence so as to overcome this presumption and that of naturalism. The amount of evidence for reason to operate on thus depends from situation to situation. And we rationalists declare that not only can we derive evidence from the microscope, the telescope and the Buntsen burner but also from dailly experience as I had the evidence that my parents loved me from their caring actions. :amen:
One indeed argues in a circle in announcing that she takes God on faith. That is what Alvin Platinga, advanced theologian, who pleads for the warrant that belief in God is basic like other minds and external reality, does. His faith cannot instantiate Yahweh over Allah or even the Great Pumpkin!:prayer:
Ideologies like National Socialism and Marxism are also faith-based as their partisans ignore facts and they rely on their whims and tastes.
The Gollden and Silver Rules rest on the insight that we cannot expect others to treat us as we want unless we accord them the same respect, Read John Beversluis's "C.S. Lewis and the Search for Rational Religion" on this point and others.
By the way, it is a myth that Tertullian affirmed that he believed in Christianity, because it was so absurd.;)
The rationalist fallacy is that with the spread of education there would be less superstition, but the more educated can indeed plead more sophisitcally for their superstition. For sure, theere is a decrease in religious bellief in the more advanced countries, except for ours.Would that Bishop John Shelby Spong could educate more Christians to accept his noting that the Bible does indeed have its faults and people ougt to practive a humanist morality!
David Hume maintains that reason should obey our passions. I maintain only if they do not conflict with the rational, which includes the just.:idea:
By the way the atheist Ayn Rand had a faith-based philosophy: it derived from her lack of knowledge of philosophy and her misconceptions of what philosophers actually maintain. Her cult denies that we have the innate moral sense and use her idiosyncratic definition of altruism as opposed to the individual.:confused:
 
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Eudaimonist

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By the way the atheist Ayn Rand had a faith-based philosophy

BTW, she did not.

it derived from her lack of knowledge of philosophy and her misconceptions of what philosophers actually maintain.

Ayn Rand did far more than critique other philosophers. Her philosophy is not a critique, but a positive philosophical system.

But let's say that you are correct in this. Being mistaken or ignorant in the construction of one's philosophy does not make one's philosophy "faith-based". It makes it incorrect in some ways.

Likewise, if your personal philosophy of life was mistaken in some ways, that would not make it a faith.

Faith =/= mistaken.

Her cult denies that we have the innate moral sense

Please don't casually throw the word "cult" around. It makes you seem cultish. And it is against board rules.

It's true that Ayn Rand believes that our "moral sense" is determined by the beliefs that we have absorbed from others. You can see this in the virulent moral opposition between pro-choicers and pro-lifers. People differ widely in their moral reactions.

But I don't see why it should be some kind of "sin" to believe that people are born tabula rasa. Disagree if you want, but there's no need to attack her so passionately for this. Rational people can disagree on difficult issues!

and use her idiosyncratic definition of altruism as opposed to the individual.:confused:

Her "idiosyncratic" definition of altruism is pretty much identical to August Comte's definition of altruism. You know... the guy who coined the term altruism?

If Ayn Rand's usage of the term altruism differs from yours, then her critique of altruism simply does not apply to you. Simple enough.


eudaimonia,

Mark
 
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griggs1947

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Reason with facts and experience leads to new medical matters whilst faith has no glory in helping humanity, with faith-healing and exorcism as its failures. Faith can act for inspiration,but people can get inspiration otherwise to draw on their own inner resources.
Whether as John Haught avers that faith envelopes ones whole being as to the truth, or as Alister Earl McGrath avers that first one has the evidence, then uses faith for certitude, one has no reason to go furhter in inquiry. Ti's better as Clifford notes, to proportion ones trust to the necessary evidence,ever willing to reflect reality!
 
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WonderBeat

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Rationalism to me seems to beg the question.... that this world exists in the first place, whereas I tend to think it's simply a projection.... So the phrase "there is an object" is simply denial at work, sort of like seeing many basketballs whereas there is only one ball being dribbled very quickly.... Since in principle rationality relies on this subject/object distinction, once you take the linen off the table the whole banquet gets blown along with it.......
 
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griggs1947

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Hardly. Rationalism reflects reality in that people use reason instead of unconfirmed intuitions, faith and such.
Rationalism means going after that more abundant life in a rational manner.People have to use reason to doubt it or contemn it. To advocate some other manner self-defeats.
Rational methods have moved mountains of ignorance and brought forth the bounty of a more abundant life for us whilst faith rests on the arguments from personal incredulity and from ignorance.
Rationalism dispenses with animism, reduced or full, those superstitions.
 
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griggs1947

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That irrational attitude reflects Yeshua's ever exhorting faith-logicide, the we just say so of credulity.Such true believers have their identities so entertwined with that relationship that reality so threatens them so that they project onto us their attitudes.
That person prefers ranting instead of real discussions. That person blasphemes reason!
So we rationalists have to see how we need to use psychology to help the superstitious overcome their addiction. To turn Barth around, rationalists cannot reason with such people but must preach psychology to them!
I salute the theists who rise above that mean-minded attitude!
 
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Dave Ellis

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Is it rational to conclude that the likelihood of a creative designer is greater than the likelihood that the universe is the result of random results?


No, it's not.

The creative designer would by necessity be more complex than the universe it created.

Using your own criteria, if something as complex as the universe is unlikely to naturally occur... then something more complex than the universe is even less likely to occur.

Taking that more complex answer and using it to answer the "where did we come from" question therefore is not rational. You're trying to answer an unlikely scenario with an even more unlikely answer.
 
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bling

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No, it's not.

The creative designer would by necessity be more complex than the universe it created.

Using your own criteria, if something as complex as the universe is unlikely to naturally occur... then something more complex than the universe is even less likely to occur.

Taking that more complex answer and using it to answer the "where did we come from" question therefore is not rational. You're trying to answer an unlikely scenario with an even more unlikely answer.
You bring up some good points, but let’s follow that logic further: So whatever created the universe has to be more complex than the universe we live in today?

The difference between the creation of a very complex universe by a creator and the creation of a creator is the creator could not have been created (to complex for one thing, so has always existed would be the explanation).

It is thought our “universe” began less than 15 billion years ago, so would something more complex than our universe have to have existed before our time began or before 15 billion years ago?

If we agree that it is illogical to believe something came from nothing (without redefining nothing as something), then did something have to always exist?

The question seems to me: Did this eternal something that was never made by something else include intelligence or was it just time/energy/space/matter?

Our universe shows lots of possibilities for intelligent design to be involved over random happenings and at least limited intelligence has developed with humans so how did that happen?

Non living things do not evolve, so random chance seems to be the only mechanism for bringing about positive change, so to avoid just being lucky how many tries would it take to have a universe with stars and a planet with life?

But that goes back to your original problem of needing a very complex machine for spitting out universes?
 
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Dave Ellis

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You bring up some good points, but let’s follow that logic further: So whatever created the universe has to be more complex than the universe we live in today?

The difference between the creation of a very complex universe by a creator and the creation of a creator is the creator could not have been created (to complex for one thing, so has always existed would be the explanation).

No, that's special pleading. It's a logical fallacy.

It is thought our “universe” began less than 15 billion years ago, so would something more complex than our universe have to have existed before our time began or before 15 billion years ago?


Not necessarily... we have examples of simple systems spawning complex ones. However, by definition your God is not one of those systems.

If we agree that it is illogical to believe something came from nothing (without redefining nothing as something), then did something have to always exist?

Perhaps, we have no idea.

The question seems to me: Did this eternal something that was never made by something else include intelligence or was it just time/energy/space/matter?

We also don't know, but we have no reason to assume it's intelligent, or eternal.

Our universe shows lots of possibilities for intelligent design to be involved over random happenings and at least limited intelligence has developed with humans so how did that happen?

If everything is intelligently designed, then what does something non-intelligently designed look like? You have no way of distinguishing the two.

As far as intelligence spawning with humans, it's most likely as brains developed better over time, we reached our current level of intelligence. It's also reasonable to guess a few million years from now we'll be more intelligent as a race than we are now... assuming that continues to provide an evolutionary benefit to us.

Non living things do not evolve, so random chance seems to be the only mechanism for bringing about positive change, so to avoid just being lucky how many tries would it take to have a universe with stars and a planet with life?

But that goes back to your original problem of needing a very complex machine for spitting out universes?


Even if it is random chance, the odds are just as good of this universe forming than any other conceptual one. And if there's an infinite number of universes could exist, then it's a virtual guarantee this one would exist as well.
 
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Elioenai26

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No, it's not.

The creative designer would by necessity be more complex than the universe it created.

Using your own criteria, if something as complex as the universe is unlikely to naturally occur... then something more complex than the universe is even less likely to occur.

And how do you suppose that God could "occur"?

God by definition is aseitic. That is, He is uncaused. God at no point has "occured" or "began to be" or "came into existence".

Do you understand this or shall I explain it a little more? I can if need be. I only want to make my point clear.
 
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Elioenai26

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No, that's special pleading. It's a logical fallacy.

Please explain how this is a logical fallacy for us all.



Not necessarily... we have examples of simple systems spawning complex ones. However, by definition your God is not one of those systems.

Examples????




We also don't know, but we have no reason to assume it's intelligent, or eternal.

You have no reason to assume it is intelligent or eternal.



If everything is intelligently designed, then what does something non-intelligently designed look like? You have no way of distinguishing the two.

If everything is intelligently designed, then there is no-thing non-intelligently designed.

As far as intelligence spawning with humans, it's most likely as brains developed better over time, we reached our current level of intelligence. It's also reasonable to guess a few million years from now we'll be more intelligent as a race than we are now... assuming that continues to provide an evolutionary benefit to us.

All that you just stated is pure assumption with no evidence to support this claim over the claims of intelligent design.




Even if it is random chance, the odds are just as good of this universe forming than any other conceptual one. And if there's an infinite number of universes could exist, then it's a virtual guarantee this one would exist as well.

All of this is based on a hypothesis which has zero evidence to support it.
 
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Dave Ellis

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And how do you suppose that God could "occur"?

God by definition is aseitic. That is, He is uncaused. God at no point has "occured" or "began to be" or "came into existence".

Do you understand this or shall I explain it a little more? I can if need be. I only want to make my point clear.


Trying to define him into existence doesn't work.... you have to demonstrate he has those properties before you can assert he does.
 
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Dave Ellis

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Please explain how this is a logical fallacy for us all.

(From Wikipedia)

Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption

You are asserting the universe could not have spontaneously come into existence, or always existed in some form. However you are claiming your God, even though he's more complex than the universe could.

You are setting a double standard, which is the basis of the special pleading fallacy.

Examples????


Evolution... Single celled organisms eventually becoming what we see in life today.

You have no reason to assume it is intelligent or eternal.

Ok.... Me and everyone else. There's no evidence that suggests intelligence.

If everything is intelligently designed, then there is no-thing non-intelligently designed.

Exactly, so how can you distinguish? What would a non-intelligently designed thing look like?

The point is, how can you assert everything displays evidence of intelligent design when you have nothing to compare it to? For all we know, non-intelligently designed things would look exactly the same.


All that you just stated is pure assumption with no evidence to support this claim over the claims of intelligent design.

Sure, that part is an assumption... but, it's logical to assume if intelligence continues to be a beneficial trait to us, that we will continue to get smarter.



All of this is based on a hypothesis which has zero evidence to support it.

What is, the comment I made on the odds is absolutely correct. As for a multiverse, you're correct in labelling it as a hypothesis.... But that was never in dispute.
 
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Elioenai26

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Trying to define him into existence doesn't work.... you have to demonstrate he has those properties before you can assert he does.

The nature of God as the greatest conceivable being demands that He possess these properties. It is a logical necessity that if He is the creator of the universe that He must possess certain properties that would make Him greater than the universe. This is dealing with God as a concept in the mind.

Christians maintain that in light of several things, namely creation itself including the heavens and the earth and those that dwell on the earth, namely humans with their sense of moral duty, emotion, mind, and will, etc. etc, and the existence of the Church are evidences of the effectual power of this Creator who is Jesus the Christ.

Skeptics and atheists maintain that a naturalistic explanation provides adequate reason not to appeal to the supernatural.

The question, Mr. Ellis, that you must deal with is this: why do so many people believe that the Christian explanation of the origin of life is the best explanation?

It would be understandable if a couple thousand people only believed this, yea even a couple million, but to say that nearly 2,000,000,000 believe this to be the best explanation cannot go unanswered! You have to have an explanation for Christianity as a worldview if you desire to maintain that all Christians are somehow "deceived" and misled and ignoring evidence which you claim should be enough to disprove the belief in the Judeo-Christian God.

Surely you will accuse me of an argumentum ad populum or appeal to the masses. But this is not what I am doing. I am not appealing to the 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world as proof that Christianity is true.
I am simply asserting, with very good warrant, that if you as one man deny that there is sufficient evidence to warrant the acceptance of the Christian worldview, you must offer a plausible explanation as to why so many people see it as more plausibly true than not.

:thumbsup:
 
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Dave Ellis

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The nature of God as the greatest conceivable being demands that He possess these properties. It is a logical necessity that if He is the creator of the universe that He must possess certain properties that would make Him greater than the universe. This is dealing with God as a concept in the mind.

You can define him that way all you want, however you still haven't shown he actually exists.

Christians maintain that in light of several things, namely creation itself including the heavens and the earth and those that dwell on the earth, namely humans with their sense of moral duty, emotion, mind, and will, etc. etc, and the existence of the Church are evidences of the effectual power of this Creator who is Jesus the Christ.

Skeptics and atheists maintain that a naturalistic explanation provides adequate reason not to appeal to the supernatural.

No disagreement here on this point.


The question, Mr. Ellis, that you must deal with is this: why do so many people believe that the Christian explanation of the origin of life is the best explanation?

Good Marketing.

It would be understandable if a couple thousand people only believed this, yea even a couple million, but to say that nearly 2,000,000,00 believe this to be the best explanation cannot go unanswered! You have to have an explanation for Christianity as a worldview if you desire to maintain that all Christians are somehow "deceived" and misled and ignoring evidence which you claim should be enough to disprove the belief in the Judeo-Christian God.

A lack of evidence to justify belief in your god is enough to not accept the claims.

When did I make the argument to try to disprove your God though?

Surely you will accuse me of an argumentum ad populum or appeal to the masses. But this is not what I am doing.

Actually, that's exactly what you're doing.

I am not appealing to the 2,000,000,000 Christians in the world as proof that Christianity is true.
I am simply asserting, with very good warrant, that if you as one man deny that there is sufficient evidence to warrant the acceptance of the Christian worldview, you must offer a plausible explanation as to why so many people see it as more plausibly true than not.

:thumbsup:

I don't have to, because your question in and of itself is flawed. First off, I'm not only one man, there are many people who share my views. Not as many as those that consider themselves Christian, but asserting I stand alone is wrong.

Secondly, There are seven billion people on the planet, only two billion are Christian. Therefore, more people do not accept it as plausibly true than believing it is true.

However, even if you were correct and a majority of people believed it, that still proves nothing. There's 1.6 Billion Muslims in the world, does that mean they're right too, or does that prove huge amounts of people can be wrong about a particular topic?
 
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Elioenai26

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Special pleading is a form of spurious argumentation where a position in a dispute introduces favorable details or excludes unfavorable details by alleging a need to apply additional considerations without proper criticism of these considerations themselves. Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.

To quote: Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.

The only way I could be guilty of the above is if I said: "It is generally accepted that the universe had a beginning at some point in the distant past and this was due to the fact that the universe created itself."

*The beginning of the universe at some point in the distant past is generally accepted as true by the majority of the scientific community. However, the second part is an attempt to cite something (the universe) as something that is an exemption to the generally accepted rule (law of cause and effect). I am doing this without any justification because I am saying that the cause for the universe coming into existence or the beginning of the universe is the universe itself! Remember, that for something to create itself, it must be, and not be, at the same time and in the same relationship. It would be called on to bring itself into existence before it is. How is this possible? By sheer reason, it is not possible. Again, for something to create itself, it must be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship, which is a gross and preposterous contradiction of all things regarding a reasonable and rational explanation. Nothing can create itself.

So we see, Mr. Ellis, that this accusation of special pleading applies not to Christians but to those who are naturalistic in their explanations of the cosmos!!

:doh:


You are asserting the universe could not have spontaneously come into existence, or always existed in some form. However you are claiming your God, even though he's more complex than the universe could.

1. Every credible piece of evidence that scientists have collected and observed, points to the universe as having a definite beginning at some point in the distant past. This view is also shown to be logically sound apart from any scientific observation. That is why it is maintained that it did not just spontaneously pop into existence, or that it has always existed. This is accepted as verifiable and more plausibly true than not by the scientific community.

2. By definition, God is transcendant over the universe. This is a definition that scientists, atheists, skeptics, Christians, Muslims, any and everybody accepts. They may not believe that God exists, but they admit that by definition, God as God would have to be the greatest conceivable being. I think this is the part that you are not understanding. God being defined as the greatest conceivable being is not evidence that is used to prove His existence. It is simply an explanation of what His attributes would be and how they would relate to one another.
 
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Dave Ellis

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To quote: Essentially, this involves someone attempting to cite something as an exemption to a generally accepted rule, principle, etc. without justifying the exemption.

The only way I could be guilty of the above is if I said: "It is generally accepted that the universe had a beginning at some point in the distant past and this was due to the fact that the universe created itself."

*The beginning of the universe at some point in the distant past is generally accepted as true by the majority of the scientific community. However, the second part is an attempt to cite something (the universe) as something that is an exemption to the generally accepted rule (law of cause and effect). I am doing this without any justification because I am saying that the cause for the universe coming into existence or the beginning of the universe is the universe itself! Remember, that for something to create itself, it must be, and not be, at the same time and in the same relationship. It would be called on to bring itself into existence before it is. How is this possible? By sheer reason, it is not possible. Again, for something to create itself, it must be and not be at the same time and in the same relationship, which is a gross and preposterous contradiction of all things regarding a reasonable and rational explanation. Nothing can create itself.

So we see, Mr. Ellis, that this accusation of special pleading applies not to Christians but to those who are naturalistic in their explanations of the cosmos!!

:doh:


I recommend you look up logical fallacies.... because you simply don't have a very good grasp on them.

You're trying to assert that the universe is too complex to have come about naturally. However, your god, which is more complex than the universe just happens to be here.

The double standard is, if the universe is too complex to be here by itself, then your God is even more so. However, you are arguing God exists because the universe is too complex to have naturally come about.

You're trying to solve a mystery by appealing to a bigger mystery, that doesn't work.


1. Every credible piece of evidence that scientists have collected and observed, points to the universe as having a definite beginning at some point in the distant past. This view is also shown to be logically sound apart from any scientific observation.

No argument here

That is why it is maintained that it did not just spontaneously pop into existence, or that it has always existed. This is accepted as verifiable and more plausibly true than not by the scientific community.

Wrong, We have no idea what caused it to start. Whatever sparked the big bang could be an entirely natural process of some kind that we don't yet understand.... but we have no evidence to show either way what happened to cause the big bang.

2. By definition, God is transcendant over the universe. This is a definition that scientists, atheists, skeptics, Christians, Muslims, any and everybody accepts. They may not believe that God exists, but they admit that by definition, God as God would have to be the greatest conceivable being. I think this is the part that you are not understanding. God being defined as the greatest conceivable being is not evidence that is used to prove His existence. It is simply an explanation of what His attributes would be and how they would relate to one another.

If that's your definition, sure.... But what does that matter? Just because you define him as being transcendent is completely irrelevant. How do you know such a being exists?
 
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Dave Ellis

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And how do you suppose that God could "occur"?

God by definition is aseitic. That is, He is uncaused. God at no point has "occured" or "began to be" or "came into existence".

Do you understand this or shall I explain it a little more? I can if need be. I only want to make my point clear.


I understand how you define him, but that's irrelevant. You have to demonstrate he exists and has those properties to be justified.

I could define my Dog as transcendent too, that doesn't mean he is. At least I can demonstrate my Dog exists though!
 
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