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A new and better translation than the Geneva Bible was needed because it was compiled in largely Calvinistic dominated Geneva (where it got it's name from) and some of the translation was considered to be corrupt do to Calvinistic influence. The footnotes were strongly Calvinistic implying that the Calvinistic interpretation of verses footnoted was the correct interpretation. The Puritans were not happy with it and quickly replaced it with the King James Bible after the AV was complete.
You miss the point. But you KJVO types usually do. They at LARGELY in agreement. The same arguments you use to say that we should use the KJV are the same ones that say we should use the Geneva. Unless, that is, you are using extra-biblical reasoning like quoting mere men such as Tyndale and Bunyan.
And there's the truth. It's not a bad translation (as you've already admitted). It's those pesky Calvinists.
In the thread pertaining to the poll for the "KJV Only", I began to engage in a good discussion with Tall73 about the "preservation" of the scriptures. I would, with Tall73's permission, like to continue this discussion.
I would like to make a few brief comments:
1) It is my opinion (whatever that is worth), that a discussion of this nature must begin, and maintain a particular level of professionalism.
2) We (the members of this forum), must always remember that we are ambassadors for Christ, hence, it is His testimony we harm, when we fail to represent Him in a positive way.
3) Each of us are indeed a product of our education, at least to some degree; and since we do not all share the same education, there is bound to be disagreement. May we disagree gracefully.
4) Finally, may we all consider what we may learn one from another, that all might be edified. I am a firm believer in the preservation of the Holy Scriptures, I hope we can discuss this issue in a way that honors our Heavenly Father.
Jack
Please don't prejudice me with the slanderous term "you KJVO types". I am being reasonable and responding accurately to your comments. I'm asking you to read my replies as well as I am reading yours. You are missing the point that "largely in agreement" is not in agreement. You are ignoring my assertion that the changes of modern versions are vast and doctrinally erroneous and my explanations as to why these facts are true. By denigrating me to a "KJVO type", it seems to justify your refusal to look at the facts I am presenting. If the summation of your argument is "you KJVO types" followed by a list of false accusations which ignore my many explanations of why the Geneva Bible was left behind and replaced by the King James Bible.
I won't be able to conduct a conversation with you if this is the kind of response I am going to face when I try to be reasonable with you.
Your tone in calling me a "KJVO type" is extremely degrading and is the same mindset used in racist attacks against ethnic groups. I can assure you that I am a man, and not a "KJVO type" who is "LARGELY in agreement" with you in matters of morality, faith, and personal conduct. We are not yet in agreement regarding the veracity of preservation of scripture and God's hand in giving His Word to us in our own language. I hope we will come into agreement on that, but we don't have to. My beloved mentor was not in agreement with me on the King James Bible, but he was a gentle man who, though he knew where I stood on the King James Bible, would never insult me by lowering me into a group prejudiced against calling me a "KJVO type" I am a man. I am not a "KJVO type".
Thank you, sir, for your patience. If you wish to discuss this issue farther with me, please acknowledge the points I have given in previous posts in these areas:
1) The vast amount of differences between modern versions and the KJV due to usage of minority text manuscripts and motivations (beliefs and ambitions) of the editors and publisher
2) Why the King James Bible replaced the Geneva Bible
3) The proofs of God's hand in bringing about the commissioning of the King of England to assemble the best and most highly educated group of translators possible to compile the Authorized Version of the English Bible.
4) The biblical doctrine of the preservation of scripture through copies throughout the generations
If being a "KJVO" type means being one who examines historical records and compare available data in an objective way and looks at what the Bible says about preservation of scripture and takes it as God's Word, fine; but I think you meant it as an ethnic insult against my beliefs for which you put me in the ethnic group of being "KJVO type", and that is akin to racism.
For a long time the holy scriptures were preserved in times of persecution when pagan Roman authorities sought to make christians deny their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. During those times the holy scriptures were passed from one congregation to another in hand written copies that were made without the benefit of expensive materials or professional copyists. These are preserved only in a few places with dry climates or in caves or other places where natural processes have allowed them to remain in decipherable condition. Of course these ancient manuscripts were written in Greek and some in Latin but none in English because English was not yet in existence - in the first five of six centuries of the Christian era the people of Britania spoke Latin or one of several Celtic languages then in use in the British isles.
After the rise of Constantine to the imperial throne in the Roman empire Christianity became an accepted religion and the copying and preservation of the holy scriptures came out into the open. With toleration came better funding for the making of copies of holy scripture and that meant better materials (such as vellum) and professional copyists. One more thing to note, the scriptures were in the Greek and Latin languages (mainly Greek). At about this time the issue of which books were canonical arose. In the west the decision was to have the books of the LXX, as listed in the canons of the third synod of Carthage (in 397 AD), and the 27 books of the new testament declared as canonical scripture. Soon afterwards (around 405 AD) saint Jerome produced a Latin translation based on the ancient Latin translations of the new testament, the Hebrew old testament in use at that time by Rabbinic Jewry, and the LXX in Greek. His translation eventually became the official bible in the west (this happened in the 16th century). Between the 5th century and the 16th century Jerome's Vulgate gained wide acceptance.
Thus the holy scriptures were preserved in the west by means of church copies and translations. In the east the the copies were in Greek using the LXX for the old testament and copies of the 27 books of the new testament in Greek. The eastern church decided a canon around the same time as the west and it contained the same books with one extra psalm (psalm 151) and several extra books in the histories and wisdom writings of the old testament. The extra books were The prayer of Manasseh, 3 & 4 Ezra, 3 & 4 Maccabees. 4 Ezra and 4 Maccabees are accepted in the Slavonic Orthodox churches but not in the Greek Orthodox church.
In the ancient churches of Ethiopia and the Sudan the number of books in the canon varies. Some accept over 80 books in their wider canon.
The Catholic Church has a 73 book canon for holy scripture. The books accepted by Catholics which are not included in most English bible translations serving churches of the various Protestant traditions are these:
The 66 book canon in use among Protestants is regarded by Protestant traditions as being the universally accepted books of holy scripture. Of course the canon as defined by the Catholic church was also made up of the universally accepted books until the rise of Protestantism (the Orthodox bible has extra books but contains all the books in the Catholic bible).
- Judith
- Tobit
- Baruch
- Wisdom
- Sirach
- 1 Maccabees
- 2 Maccabees
- some parts of Esther
- some parts of Danial
Nowadays bibles are printed in vast quantities and their preservation is the work of major publishing houses, museums, and churches each working for their own purposes but all serving, in their own ways, the purpose of the preservation of the holy scriptures.
I believe Hammster was using the term KJVO the same way the majority of us do. It essentially means that You will not use another version and will only use the KJV, hence King James Version Only or KJVO.
I honestly do not think he was using it like a racial slur.
BTW, I have not always been a Lutheran. I was raised Catholic, left the Catholic church in my teens when I rebelled. Came back to God when I met my wife who showed me the love of Jesus and took a chance on someone who was not following after God. One church service in a church that we were attending I felt the pull to raise my hand and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. A year later I was water immersed in a surprise baptism as I wasn't supposed to be baptized that day, but the pastor of my wife's church could not keep me out of the water. So he baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
We have been in and out of churches trying to find one that we both could agree on. My wife really enjoys the Pentecostal scene, but they scare me. I tried going back to the Catholic church, but didn't stay as my wife wouldn't step foot into a Catholic church (she too was raised Catholic). We tried a non-denominational Independent Southern leaning Baptist church for a little while, but I just wasn't happy there either. There was another non-denom church that we both enjoyed, but it was twenty-five miles away one-way and just too far as we're not exactly well off and actually are considered well below poverty in income.
So my wife attended a Lutheran service one Sunday and told me that I need to go the following week. I did and absolutely fell in love with it. She had attended the Baptist leaning non-denom church maybe a week or two later as I didn't go to church that morning and the sermon spoke to her about following me wherever I go as long as it's not against God. So she has been going with me to the Lutheran church ever since. She too loves it and loves the people there. The people there have completely embraced us and even threw a baby shower for us back in February. Unfortunately we could not attend as we were actually in the hospital after the birth of our second child.
I haven't been to church since the beginning of February since I take the night shift with our son and by the time I get to bed it's usually around 6am. Bible study is at 8:45a and service at 10:00am. I am fast asleep by those times. Thankfully, the shepherd leader has stopped by and given us communion and the pastor has been by a couple times as well to check in on us. When our son starts to sleep through the night we will start to attend regularly once more.
This Lutheran church is also looking at us starting a marriage group as we're the youngest married couple there and they are hoping that we can bring in more young couples.
I have never been part of a church like this Lutheran church. They check in on you, they hold baby showers for you, they do so much that you can only feel the love of Jesus radiating from them.
So there you have it. That is my salvation story. Yes, I decided to tell it as you did ask. I am also going to ask for your forgiveness as I was a bit testy last night. I was working off of about 2 hours of sleep in the past 48 by that point.
I believe Hammster was using the term KJVO the same way the majority of us do. It essentially means that You will not use another version and will only use the KJV, hence King James Version Only or KJVO.
I honestly do not think he was using it like a racial slur.
BTW, I have not always been a Lutheran. I was raised Catholic, left the Catholic church in my teens when I rebelled. Came back to God when I met my wife who showed me the love of Jesus and took a chance on someone who was not following after God. One church service in a church that we were attending I felt the pull to raise my hand and accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. A year later I was water immersed in a surprise baptism as I wasn't supposed to be baptized that day, but the pastor of my wife's church could not keep me out of the water. So he baptized me in the name of the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit.
We have been in and out of churches trying to find one that we both could agree on. My wife really enjoys the Pentecostal scene, but they scare me. I tried going back to the Catholic church, but didn't stay as my wife wouldn't step foot into a Catholic church (she too was raised Catholic). We tried a non-denominational Independent Southern leaning Baptist church for a little while, but I just wasn't happy there either. There was another non-denom church that we both enjoyed, but it was twenty-five miles away one-way and just too far as we're not exactly well off and actually are considered well below poverty in income.
So my wife attended a Lutheran service one Sunday and told me that I need to go the following week. I did and absolutely fell in love with it. She had attended the Baptist leaning non-denom church maybe a week or two later as I didn't go to church that morning and the sermon spoke to her about following me wherever I go as long as it's not against God. So she has been going with me to the Lutheran church ever since. She too loves it and loves the people there. The people there have completely embraced us and even threw a baby shower for us back in February. Unfortunately we could not attend as we were actually in the hospital after the birth of our second child.
I haven't been to church since the beginning of February since I take the night shift with our son and by the time I get to bed it's usually around 6am. Bible study is at 8:45a and service at 10:00am. I am fast asleep by those times. Thankfully, the shepherd leader has stopped by and given us communion and the pastor has been by a couple times as well to check in on us. When our son starts to sleep through the night we will start to attend regularly once more.
This Lutheran church is also looking at us starting a marriage group as we're the youngest married couple there and they are hoping that we can bring in more young couples.
I have never been part of a church like this Lutheran church. They check in on you, they hold baby showers for you, they do so much that you can only feel the love of Jesus radiating from them.
So there you have it. That is my salvation story. Yes, I decided to tell it as you did ask. I am also going to ask for your forgiveness as I was a bit testy last night. I was working off of about 2 hours of sleep in the past 48 by that point.
Thank you for sharing, that's a good salvation testimony and well worth repeating to many more than myself. God gave you a special jewel with His testimony of working in your life. "Blessed are they that keep His testimonies"....I forget the chapter and verse reference due to my cognitive decline which I really hate to use as an excuse for forgetting things...hate to admit I'm getting old, I still feel like a kid at heart and I sure know how to act up like a spoiled brat sometimes. I'm truly glad to hear you are saved as I believe you are by the clear testimony you gave. I will see you in heaven.
I don't see in the Bible where it says we are going to paradise.
I meant no offense in earlier discussions, I am simply passionate about my beliefs and enjoy the challenges of opposing viewpoints. I hope the best for people who are reading things I write the same as I hope the best for you. Jesus is the best. Being saved is the best. Knowing you have eternal life and your sins are forgiven and heaven is your home is the best. Knowing God's love, knowing He loves you, is the best. I want the best for everybody, I just don't know how to get them to see what is best and admittedly behave badly at times trying to make a point.
I really like debating with atheists. They become extremely nasty when confronted with Biblical truth. The truth seems extremely nasty to people who resist it. That's why you might thing I'm being harsh or nasty when I debate for KJVO. Really, I'm only trying to be truthful. When I say somebody is proud in the issue, I don't mean that as a character assassination. I am proud in some things I should not be proud in and it will take time, maybe death, before the Lord breaks me of it....especially in the ways pride gets the best of me and I don't realize how repulsive my pride is while I'm enjoying myself.
I didn't have time to respond to your entire post, wanted to give this response as it might be my last post on this site. In heaven, all will be friends and I look at everybody I meet as a potential friend even if they are my enemy.
I truly appreciate you sharing your salvation testimony. I read through the entire post quickly and will read it more carefully later, Lord permitting. Getting sleepy now.
Nice to see you again Coffee!
A couple weeks ago I purchased along with my Lutheran Study Bible (ESV) a Apocrypha with Lutheran study notes (ESV).
I am looking forward to reading the Apocrypha as it, at least from what I have read, fills in much of the gap between Malachi and Matthew.
And there's the truth. It's not a bad translation (as you've already admitted). It's those pesky Calvinists.
And you've admitted that there was prejudice against the Geneva. So the same argument can be used against the KJV. And minority manuscripts is not bad if the manuscripts are older and can provide a better translation.Please don't prejudice me with the slanderous term "you KJVO types". I am being reasonable and responding accurately to your comments. I'm asking you to read my replies as well as I am reading yours. You are missing the point that "largely in agreement" is not in agreement. You are ignoring my assertion that the changes of modern versions are vast and doctrinally erroneous and my explanations as to why these facts are true. By denigrating me to a "KJVO type", it seems to justify your refusal to look at the facts I am presenting. If the summation of your argument is "you KJVO types" followed by a list of false accusations which ignore my many explanations of why the Geneva Bible was left behind and replaced by the King James Bible.
I won't be able to conduct a conversation with you if this is the kind of response I am going to face when I try to be reasonable with you.
Your tone in calling me a "KJVO type" is extremely degrading and is the same mindset used in racist attacks against ethnic groups. I can assure you that I am a man, and not a "KJVO type" who is "LARGELY in agreement" with you in matters of morality, faith, and personal conduct. We are not yet in agreement regarding the veracity of preservation of scripture and God's hand in giving His Word to us in our own language. I hope we will come into agreement on that, but we don't have to. My beloved mentor was not in agreement with me on the King James Bible, but he was a gentle man who, though he knew where I stood on the King James Bible, would never insult me by lowering me into a group prejudiced against calling me a "KJVO type" I am a man. I am not a "KJVO type".
Thank you, sir, for your patience. If you wish to discuss this issue farther with me, please acknowledge the points I have given in previous posts in these areas:
1) The vast amount of differences between modern versions and the KJV due to usage of minority text manuscripts and motivations (beliefs and ambitions) of the editors and publisher
None of which is biblical.2) Why the King James Bible replaced the Geneva Bible
You've offered no proof. You've offered your opinion, though.3) The proofs of God's hand in bringing about the commissioning of the King of England to assemble the best and most highly educated group of translators possible to compile the Authorized Version of the English Bible.
Which can be applied to the Geneva.4) The biblical doctrine of the preservation of scripture through copies throughout the generations
If being a "KJVO" type means being one who examines historical records and compare available data in an objective way and looks at what the Bible says about preservation of scripture and takes it as God's Word, fine; but I think you meant it as an ethnic insult against my beliefs for which you put me in the ethnic group of being "KJVO type", and that is akin to racism.
Is this thread really about the KJV and its preservation?
And you've admitted that there was prejudice against the Geneva. So the same argument can be used against the KJV. And minority manuscripts is not bad if the manuscripts are older and can provide a better translation.
None of which is biblical.
You've offered no proof. You've offered your opinion, though.
Which can be applied to the Geneva.
Lol. Not an ethnic insult. Just an observation.
And you've admitted that there was prejudice against the Geneva. So the same argument can be used against the KJV. And minority manuscripts is not bad if the manuscripts are older and can provide a better translation.
None of which is biblical.
You've offered no proof. You've offered your opinion, though.
Which can be applied to the Geneva.
Lol. Not an ethnic insult. Just an observation.
Thank you.
I use paradise and heaven interchangeably. As for where it is in the Bible, look at Luke 23:43 when he is speaking to the thief on the cross. The King James also says Paradise.
The prejudice against the KJV is yours, and that is why you are not acknowledging logical and historical supports for it being the Word of God entirely correct in English, and the only correct version ever in English. Because of your prejudice in the discussion, I think it's a waste of time to refer you back to my previous posts or to offer any further supports elaborating on those posts. My guess is that you will treat further supports the same as you are treating previously posted supports, with complete prejudice against the King James Bible being the entirely correct preserved Word of God in English.
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