The Presbyterae

[Irenaeus]

I have a question, although it has come up before.

I am wondering if anyone knows anything about ancient deaconesses in the early Church, especially in the Eastern Churches.

We know that only men are to be validly ordained into any such office, so the question it two fold:

Who were the Presbyterae,
and what did they do? Was their "ordination" an ordination proper, or a consecration, like the vow of a religious? The women priests site also uses such material regarding the existance of an early deaconess position as justification for women priestesses.

 

[geocajun]

Irenaus, they were women who assisted the Bishop with many things, but in particular they assisted in baptizing women.
Deacon = assistant. It has not always been an indicator that someone was ordained as was the case here. These women were concecrated, but there is not a single record to indicate they received the Sacrament of Holy Orders (and these records are kept).
However, even if they did (which is completely hypothetical) the Orders would have been invalid as a "Baptized Male" is the proper Matter for the Sacrament.

 

[gzt]

Umm, "presbyterae" is not the word you're looking for. "Presbytera" refers to, for example, the wife of a priest and would, if such an office ever existed, which it never has, refer to a priestess, not a deaconess.

 

[plainswolf]

Geocajun is right..

Yes... here name was Phoebe, she was a deaconess of a Chruch near Corinth and a messenger for St. Paul and a very prominent woman in her own land. She delivered his letter to Rome. Thats about all i know... from the book: "The Primitive Church" available at TAN books and publishing...a FANTASTIC Catholic books source.

J.M.J.
plainswolf

 

[PioMagnus]

The deaconesses were also door-women. I.E. they stood at the door. Hardly the jobs that we are led to believe they had by some of the pro-women's ordination people.

 

[Irenaeus]

Yes, all this is true,

But there is something in the Apostolic Constitutions about appointing deaconesses. I'm trying to decide if its a consecration or ordination.

 

[geocajun]

Yes, all this is true,

But there is something in the Apostolic Constitutions about appointing deaconesses. I'm trying to decide if its a consecration or ordination.

what makes you think its an ordination? every source I have ever found (short of women-priest wannabes) has recognized that deaconesses were never ordained, but rather consecrated.

 

[Irenaeus]

Geo,

It's because there are records, like in the Syrian Churches, of deaconesses anointing the sick, and whatnot. Newadvent.org describes these things as abuses.

 

[geocajun]

Geo,

It's because there are records, like in the Syrian Churches, of deaconesses anointing the sick, and whatnot. Newadvent.org describes these things as abuses.

ahh sort of like EMHC's blessing people at the communion line...

 

[Irenaeus]

Geo,

Right. And then some.

 

[Michelina]

You may be thinking of diaconai, "deaconesses", who assisted deacons and (later) porters, in their work, Irenaeus. The term has caused some confusion. The fact that they were 'consecrated' does not mean they were ordained. Again, a terminological problem. Today, the Holy See is fighting similar things to avoid any confusion of roles. E.g. The Holy See keeps reminding people not to use the word "pastoral" for any function in the Church other than priestly functions. Nevertheless it continues.

There is no reason a layperson cannot use blessed oil and pray with and 'over' ill people. But doing so is not a Sacrament.

 

[geocajun]

E.g. The Holy See keeps reminding people not to use the word "pastoral" for any function in the Church other than priestly functions. Nevertheless it continues.

or calling laymen 'minister' without the 'extraordinary' prefix.

 

[Michelina]

or calling laymen 'minister' without the 'extraordinary' prefix.

Exactly, geo. People are very sloppy with terminology and it really does cause confusion.