The Power Of One Article

Mr. M said:

Revelation 7:
KJV:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NKJV:
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,
“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,
and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We see one difference in comparing the translations; the modern version adds the article 'the', changing the meaning to the saints who have gone through great tribulation beginning in Judea shortly after Pentecost, to some future event that people refer to as 'The Great Tribulation", which apparently the Church will not experience if they are gathered before said tribulation. So who are being persecuted during "The Great Tribulation"?

Note: the article 'the' is not in the original. Surely an agenda is afoot.

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Not that I am taking sides in the debate but I do see the article in all the major morph texts and even both versions of the T/R, (1550 and 1894). Scroll down a little at this link:

Mr. M said:

Thanks for the link. This is what I had looked at in the BLB.org.
I need more education for sure.

Revelation 7 :: King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 7 - And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

www.blueletterbible.org

I remain suspicious.

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Did you have it set on "Reverse" in the interlinear? Since there's no "the" in the KJV, it makes the Greek disappear if you do that.

Here's how it looks in Forward and Reverse (because the images are big, and this way people won't have to scroll through them if they don't want to look at them):

FORWARD:



REVERSE:

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So from "Forward" (Greek to English) it will list the word for "the" in Greek (Greek has multiple words for the depending on the gender/plurality/case of the word it applies to, but it's τῆς in this case), but will leave the English column blank as the KJV has no word corresponding to it. Still, it appears. But if you go on "Reverse" and see English to Greek, where it lists each English word and then lists the corresponding Greek term (reordering the Greek as necessary), then the τῆς completely disappears because there's no English word that corresponds for it. Were you perhaps looking at Reverse?

Actually, rather oddly, it uses the word for "the" (τῆς) twice, once before tribulation and once before great. I'm not sure why that is, but it might be a part of Greek grammar I'm unaware of (I'm very far from an expert on Greek!), or perhaps it's for emphasis.

Mr. M said:

Thanks for the link. This is what I had looked at in the BLB.org.
I need more education for sure.

Revelation 7 :: King James Version (KJV)

Revelation 7 - And after these things I saw four angels standing on the four corners of the earth, holding the four winds of the earth, that the wind should not blow on the earth, nor on the sea, nor on any tree.

www.blueletterbible.org

I remain suspicious.

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It is true that the KJV, which reads from the T/R, (Textus Receptus), does not render the article into English, even though it is indeed written in the T/R. I just copied the text at the top of the page which you linked from the Blue Letter Bible site. The site is quoting the text of the T/R so I'll quote their quote of the same passage and highlight the article in question.

Revelation 7:14 Textus Receptus, (KJV)
7:14 καὶ εἴρηκα αὐτῷ Κύριέ σὺ οἶδας καὶ εἶπέν μοι Οὗτοί εἰσιν οἱ ἐρχόμενοι ἐκ τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης καὶ ἔπλυναν τὰς στολὰς αὐτῶν καὶ ἐλεύκαναν στολὰς αὐτῶν ἐν τῷ αἵματι τοῦ ἀρνίου

τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης = "the great tribulation"

The KJV simply omitted it for some reason.

JSRG said:

Actually, rather oddly, it uses the word for "the" (τῆς) twice, once before tribulation and once before great. I'm not sure why that is, but it might be a part of Greek grammar I'm unaware of (I'm very far from an expert on Greek!), or perhaps it's for emphasis.

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Yes, that is correct Greek grammar.

daq said:

τῆς θλίψεως τῆς μεγάλης = "the great tribulation"

The KJV simply omitted it for some reason.

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The reason 'the' is not placed before - great tribulation in Rev 7:14, is because that Prophecy does not refer to the Great Tribulation, of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.
It refers to the just happened Lords terrible Day of fiery wrath - the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and world changer.

Proved by how it comes after the Sixth Seal and before the Seventh Seal. It refers to those who maintained their faith in the Lords protection during the frightful heat, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis of that sudden and shocking Day. 1 Peter 4:12 warns us.

keras said:

The reason 'the' is not placed before - great tribulation in Rev 7:14, is because that Prophecy does not refer to the Great Tribulation, of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls.
It refers to the just happened Lords terrible Day of fiery wrath - the Sixth Seal worldwide disaster and world changer.

Proved by how it comes after the Sixth Seal and before the Seventh Seal. It refers to those who maintained their faith in the Lords protection during the frightful heat, storms, earthquakes and tsunamis of that sudden and shocking Day. 1 Peter 4:12 warns us.

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According to the text they came out of a particular place: that place is called the Great Tribulation, which I capitalize because the definite articles make the statement emphatic, which means the phrase, (the Great Tribulation), may actually be a proper noun. Here is a more modern (easily understandable) version.

Revelation 7:13-14 HNV
13 One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?"
14 I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.

daq said:

According to the text they came out of a particular place: that place is called the Great Tribulation, which I capitalize because the definite articles make the statement emphatic, which means the phrase, (the Great Tribulation), may actually be a proper noun. Here is a more modern (easily understandable) version.

Revelation 7:13-14 HNV
13 One of the elders answered, saying to me, "These who are arrayed in white robes, who are they, and from where did they come?"
14 I told him, "My lord, you know." He said to me, "These are those who came out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes, and made them white in the Lamb's blood.

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The great tribulation is not a place. Neither is the Sixth Seal.
Revelation is the only Prophetic Book that gives us a sequence of events. We know the first five Seals were opened by Jesus at Hs Ascension, proved by all the Christian martyrs since Stephen.
It will be after the Sixth Seal Lords Day of wrath, that Revelation 7:1-14 takes place. Rev 7:15-17 is a Prophecy about the Eternal state, to come after the Millennium.

The robes of the people seen by John, are washed clean by their proving their faith and trust in the Lord when the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal strikes the earth.

keras said:

The great tribulation is not a place.

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Yes, it is, because it is a place in the walk of every believer. It is no different than being crucified with the Master: for when you arrive at that place it is a transition in your life and walk with the Father and His Son, who says that the one who endures unto the end will be saved.

keras said:

Neither is the Sixth Seal.

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Yes, it is.

Revelation 6:12-17 ASV
12 And I saw when he opened the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the whole moon became as blood;
13 and the stars of the heaven fell unto the earth, as a fig tree casteth her unripe figs when she is shaken of a great wind.
14 And the heaven was removed as a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the princes, and the chief captains, and the rich, and the strong, and every bondman and freeman, hid themselves in the caves and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 and they say to the mountains and to the rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: [Hos 10:8, Luke 23:30]
17 for the great day of their wrath is come; and who is able to stand?

Luke 23:28-33 ASV
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.
29 For behold, the days are coming, [are come] in which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the breasts that never gave suck.
30 Then [When] shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. [Hos 10:8, Rev 6:16]
31 For if they do these things in the green tree, what shall be done in the dry?
32 And there were also two others, malefactors, led with him to be put to death.
33 And when they came unto the place which is called The skull, there they crucified him, and the malefactors, one on the right hand and the other on the left.

The Testimony of the Master is the Spirit of the Prophecy, (Rev 19:10).

keras said:

The robes of the people seen by John, are washed clean by their proving their faith and trust in the Lord when the worldwide disaster of the Sixth Seal strikes the earth.

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It is not going to be the whole world all at once in a global holocaust, it is going to be your world: for the kingdom of Elohim is within you, (Luke 17:20-21), and it is to each in his or her own appointed times, times appointed by the Father, and no one knows the day or the hour. Therefore, just as the Master says to all, in the Olivet Discourse:

Mark 13:31-37 ASV
31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
34 It is as when a man, sojourning in another country, having left his house, and given authority to his servants, to each one his work, commanded also the porter to watch.
35 Watch therefore: for ye know not when the lord of the house cometh, whether at even, or at midnight, or at cockcrowing, or in the morning;
36 lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.

The Testimony of the Master is the Spirit of the Prophecy, (Rev 19:10).

I had said to the OP that I wasn't taking sides in my responses to him herein, but since you've required it, I side with the Testimony of the Master Meshiah in the Gospel accounts.

Mr. M said:

Revelation 7:
KJV:
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me,
What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me,
These are they which came out of great tribulation,
and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

NKJV:
13 Then one of the elders answered, saying to me,
“Who are these arrayed in white robes, and where did they come from?”
14 And I said to him, “Sir, you know.”
So he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation,
and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

We see one difference in comparing the translations; the modern version adds the article 'the', changing the meaning to the saints who have gone through great tribulation beginning in Judea shortly after Pentecost, to some future event that people refer to as 'The Great Tribulation", which apparently the Church will not experience if they are gathered before said tribulation. So who are being persecuted during "The Great Tribulation"?

Note: the article 'the' is not in the original. Surely an agenda is afoot.

Click to expand...

"the" great tribulation isn't what Jesus said in Matthew 24

21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

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nor is it what Jesus says in Revelation 2

22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

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Calling something "the" tribulation is a pretribber thing.
equating tribulation to the wrath of God, is an error.
tribulation, even great tribulation, is persecution. What separates tribulation of the 1st, and 2nd centuries in Roman society, from "great tribulation" is scope. It's worldwide rather than localized, and it involves a lot more people.

But Jesus didn't describe the rivers and oceans turning to blood or demonic armies or the sun scorching the Earth in Matthew 24.
He described things of the first 6 seals, and that was it.
The 6th seal shows the signs that happen immediately after the tribulation of those days, that is, great tribulation that Jesus had mentioned in Matthew 24:21 as its context.

So when the 6th seal happens? Great tribulation is over.
What happens after that, the trumpets, and the bowls, those are not tribulation, they are the wrath of God.

Revelation 6:17 could not be more clear.

Jamdoc said:

Revelation 6:17 could not be more clear.

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So obviously; the Sixth Seal event is not part of the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. It must come before them, as Rev 15:1 says; after them, Gods wrath is over

keras said:

So obviously; the Sixth Seal event is not part of the Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and the 7 Bowls. It must come before them, as Rev 15:1 says; after them, Gods wrath is over

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No.
Tribulation is never the term used for supernatural acts of God.
The flood was not called "tribulation"
destroying Sodom and Gomorrah was not called tribulation.

Tribulation refers to persecution by men.

The trumpets and bowls are not called tribulation in the text of Revelation. Before any of the trumpets come out in Revelation 7 the saints are said to have come out of great tribulation, it was already over. Revelation 6:17 is when the 6th seal is released and that is when the wrath of God is come. Not that God's wrath is over, that it is come, like it's about to happen, it's about to begin.
During the 5th seal the Martyrs ask how long will the Lord withhold judgement from the World. God is not judging the world during the first 5 seals, God is allowing evil men to do evil things during those. A seal represents something God has held back previously, but is now unsealing and allowing to happen.

The second viewpoint of it is shown in Revelation 14, from Revelation 12, to Revelation 14 is a rewind of events, having Satan cast down to Earth, and making war with the saints, that's great tribulation, it's what's happening during the 5th seal, told with different details, then Revelation 14 comes

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

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So the mark of the beast is not a judgement from God, God is going to judge the world BECAUSE of the beast and the mark of the beast. God is going to judge the world BECAUSE of great tribulation in other words, He is answering the cries of the martyrs to avenge their blood.

Great tribulation is whar antichrist and his kingdom do to the people of God. The judgement of God and wrath of God is God's vengeance/retribution for great tribulation. Antichrist makes war on the saints. God makes war on Antichrist in retribution.

Jamdoc said:

Tribulation refers to persecution by men.

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The wrath of God at the Sixth Seal will cause worldwide disaster.
The 3 1/2 years period of world Satanic control, when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, punishments of the ungodly, are also the wrath of God. Revelation 15:1
All are referred to as tribulation.

The word 'tribulation' is not in modern usage. It is another KJV, old English word, which has been used by some to support their false theories.

keras said:

The wrath of God at the Sixth Seal will cause worldwide disaster.
The 3 1/2 years period of world Satanic control, when the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, punishments of the ungodly, are also the wrath of God. Revelation 15:1
All are referred to as tribulation.

The word 'tribulation' is not in modern usage. It is another KJV, old English word, which has been used by some to support their false theories.

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Not in the bible they aren't. Only modern people are seeing those things as tribulation.

When Jesus referred to tribulation it was the things prior to the 6th seal.

The first time that the word tribulation is used it's in this context:

Deuteronomy 4

27 And the Lord shall scatter you among the nations, and ye shall be left few in number among the heathen, whither the Lord shall lead you.
28 And there ye shall serve gods, the work of men's hands, wood and stone, which neither see, nor hear, nor eat, nor smell.
29 But if from thence thou shalt seek the Lord thy God, thou shalt find him, if thou seek him with all thy heart and with all thy soul.
30 When thou art in tribulation, and all these things are come upon thee, even in the latter days, if thou turn to the Lord thy God, and shalt be obedient unto his voice;
31 (For the Lord thy God is a merciful God he will not forsake thee, neither destroy thee, nor forget the covenant of thy fathers which he sware unto them.

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So what is tribulation here? Not some supernatural disaster, but when they're scattered among the heathen and religiously persecuted, having to serve the gods of the heathen. That definition fits the rest of the times the word is used in the bible as well. Tribulation is when you're faced with persecution and pressure to go after other gods.

What is great tribulation therefore? When you are faced with you have to take the mark of the beast, or you will starve to death. When you have to worship the beast and his image, or you will be beheaded.
That is great tribulation. It is the worldwide application of Nebuchadnezzar's golden idol, that if you don't worship the idol you'll be killed.

Jamdoc said:

When Jesus referred to tribulation it was the things prior to the 6th seal.

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I agree.
Jesus referred to persecution and troubled times, which Christians have and still do experience.

But what Revelation 7:14 refers to; is the Sixth Seal disaster.
Re; the Mark of the beast; the faithful Christians will not face the 'beast', as they will be taken to a place of safety. Rev 12:14

The general meaning of the Great Tribulation, is for the 3 1/2 year period of satanic world control, ending with Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:10-18

keras said:

I agree.
Jesus referred to persecution and troubled times, which Christians have and still do experience.

But what Revelation 7:14 refers to; is the Sixth Seal disaster.
Re; the Mark of the beast; the faithful Christians will not face the 'beast', as they will be taken to a place of safety. Rev 12:14

The general meaning of the Great Tribulation, is for the 3 1/2 year period of satanic world control, ending with Armageddon and the glorious Return of Jesus. Revelation 16:10-18

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the Mark of the Beast is one of the chief things that Christians will face.

Revelation 12

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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The dragon, which gives his authority to the beast, makes war on Christians specifically.

Revelation 13

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.
8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.
10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

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The beast carries out the war against the saints for the dragon.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:
17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

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so who are the people that won't worship the image of the beast? go back to verse 8, it's those written in the Lamb's book of life, that is, Christians, that's who won't worship, that's who won't take the mark, and that's who will be put to death by the False Prophet and the Beast.

Revelation 14

9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.

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So a warning not to take the mark of the beast or worship the beast or his image, who won't do these things? The saints that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus, IE Christians. That's who won't take the mark, and die in the Lord as a result.
This is before...

14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

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Jesus on the clouds.
Jesus then reaps the Earth, that is the rapture. Then an angel reaps the grapes of wrath, those are put through the winepress, and then Jesus treads the winepress, staining His clothes with their blood. Revelation 19 Jesus is already covered in blood. This blood.

Revelation 15

2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

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These are people in heaven in the heavenly temple. They're Chirstians, and what'd they overcome? The beast, his image, and the mark of the beast, and the number of his name.

Christians face Antichrist, period.

Jamdoc said:

The dragon, which gives his authority to the beast, makes war on Christians specifically.

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You fail to see how the Christian peoples are divided into two groups.

The holy people of God, now every faithful Christian, who will be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-12, do get taken over by the leader of the One World Govt; the Anti-Christ, as described in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8
This will happen at the midpoint of the last 7 years before Jesus Returns and it is because they failed to trust solely on the Lord for their protection.

Daniel 9:27 tells of a treaty, a peace treaty for a seven year period, made between ‘many’ [not all] of the citizens of Beulah and the leader of the OWG, that God calls; a treaty with death. Isaiah 28:14-15

We see in Daniel 11:32, how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, those who agreed to this seven year peace treaty with the AC, and those who refused to violate their covenant with God. This conquest and division of the Lord’s people, at the mid point of the seven years, is seen in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-7

Then in Revelation 12:6-17, those two groups of Christians are described; the faithful ones are taken to a place of safety during the 3 1/2 years, [or 42 months or 1260 days] and the other group remain, as per Revelation 12:17.
They will face persecution and many will be killed ,but provided they kept strong in their faith, they will be resurrected when Jesus Returns; Revelation 20:4

Then Jesus Returns, destroys the Anti-Christ's army and chains him up. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His people from their place of safety and all who have refused the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:31, to where He is; that is in Jerusalem, from where He will rule the world for 1000 years.

keras said:

You fail to see how the Christian peoples are divided into two groups.

The holy people of God, now every faithful Christian, who will be living in peace and prosperity in all of the holy Land, Isaiah 62:1-12, do get taken over by the leader of the One World Govt; the Anti-Christ, as described in Zechariah 14:1-2, Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:5-8
This will happen at the midpoint of the last 7 years before Jesus Returns and it is because they failed to trust solely on the Lord for their protection.

Daniel 9:27 tells of a treaty, a peace treaty for a seven year period, made between ‘many’ [not all] of the citizens of Beulah and the leader of the OWG, that God calls; a treaty with death. Isaiah 28:14-15

We see in Daniel 11:32, how the Christians are divided into 2 groups, those who agreed to this seven year peace treaty with the AC, and those who refused to violate their covenant with God. This conquest and division of the Lord’s people, at the mid point of the seven years, is seen in Zechariah 14:1-2 and Revelation 13:5-7

Then in Revelation 12:6-17, those two groups of Christians are described; the faithful ones are taken to a place of safety during the 3 1/2 years, [or 42 months or 1260 days] and the other group remain, as per Revelation 12:17.
They will face persecution and many will be killed ,but provided they kept strong in their faith, they will be resurrected when Jesus Returns; Revelation 20:4

Then Jesus Returns, destroys the Anti-Christ's army and chains him up. Jesus sends out His angels to gather His people from their place of safety and all who have refused the mark of the beast, Matthew 24:31, to where He is; that is in Jerusalem, from where He will rule the world for 1000 years.

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Yeah none of that passes muster.

If the people persecuted were not "true Christians" then the angel in Revelation 14 wouldn't say that those who die in the Lord from now on are blessed, because they violated the covenant with God as you're saying it, nor would the martyrs in the 5th seal be in heaven, nor those beheaded by the beast be described as being in the first resurrection in Revelation 20, they wouldn't be described as Saints at all.
The bible doesn't say "true Christians" are protected from persecution and fake ones get persecuted in their place mistaking them as real ones.

Sounds like you're taking pages from pre-trib rapture but you have a hot take on John 3:13 so you ignore things like Enoch, Elijah, and the many people in heaven in Revelation 19:1.. so because of that hot take you have them get raptured somewhere on Earth rather than heaven but still believe it's "pre-trib"

Jamdoc said:

If the people persecuted were not "true Christians"

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The people in Rev 12:17, are Christians, but they failed to fully trust the Lord for His protection.

Jamdoc said:

so you ignore things like Enoch, Elijah,

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Enoch and Elijah are never said to be living in heaven. Or Moses.

Jamdoc said:

the many people in heaven in Revelation 19:1.

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Nowhere does it say they are living people. Obviously they are the martyrs of Rev 6:9-11, who are enabled to cry out at times.

Plainly the living Christians do remain on earth, kept safe until Jesus Returns. Then His angels will gather them to where Jesus is - in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31

keras said:

The people in Rev 12:17, are Christians, but they failed to fully trust the Lord for His protection.

Enoch and Elijah are never said to be living in heaven. Or Moses.

Nowhere does it say they are living people. Obviously they are the martyrs of Rev 6:9-11, who are enabled to cry out at times.

Plainly the living Christians do remain on earth, kept safe until Jesus Returns. Then His angels will gather them to where Jesus is - in Jerusalem. Matthew 24:30-31

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2 Kings 2

1 And it came to pass, when the Lord would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.

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11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

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It's pretty explicit, then they appear with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration, and Elijah will return from heaven before the great and terrible Day of the Lord.
and he goes back to heaven too as one of the 2 witnesses after the beast kills him

Revelation 11

11 And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.

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Stop basing entire doctrines on 1 out of context verse and ignoring what the rest of the bible says.