The potter has rights too!

[GillDouglas]

Time and time again in the epistles of Paul, he tells us that men are dead in trespasses and sin, estranged from God, and completely helpless. All men, in their natural state, are rebels against God; and though they may do many things which the law of God requires, nothing is done with reference to God and His law (Psalm 51:5, Romans 3:10-12). This state is the basis and foundation of the system of redemption found in the Scriptures. Until a man is brought to understand this nature, he will never seek help where alone it is to be found (1 Cor 2:14).

All of mankind lost communion with God, and are under His wrath and curse, but out of His mere good pleasure he has selected some to know freedom of that curse. By His mercy and in infinite wisdom, He designed the evangelical proclamations of men, either by works or speech or by other means, to not only give new eyes to some but to also harden the hearts of others (1 Cor 1:18, Roman 11:7). In that moment of time, set aside by God in eternity, a man realizes his nature, and gladly accepts the means in which he is to be redeemed (2 Thess 2:13, Ezekk 36:26). Through God's instruments He does bring salvation to those whom He chose and there are some who shall remain condemned.

These events are not in the Divine mind as they are in ours by a succession of acts, one after another, but that by one single act God has at once ordained all these things. All of God's decrees are eternal, and therefore came at the moment of creation. And since no one can deny that no person has any claim on God's grace, it's understood that all are unworthy. And if the decree dealt simply with innocent men, it could be understood as being unjust. The already condemned world needs no further condemnation, it needs saving. When all deserve death, it is a marvel of pure grace that any should receive the unmerited gift of everlasting life (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

The truth of salvation is a strong topic for debate. There are some who say that God's will can be resisted, and others that claim all will be saved. If all are to be saved, why are there so many who reject Him? If He willed that none should perish, He would surely give to all men those effectual means of salvation without which it cannot be had, but experience and Scriptures prove that He does not (Rom 9:17, Exodus 9:16, Deut 2:30, Joshua 11:20). There are some that say it is because of a man's faith that he is saved. If it were based on faith then God has been careful to choose only those whom He foresees will elect themselves. Some would say that there are none chosen for one purpose over the other, like an earthly father showing favoritism to his children. Yet God gives different things to different people: whether they're born in wealth, have abilities to do certain work, or have a sense of humor; and let us not forget that God loved Jacob, but also hated Esau. Scriptures shows time and time again that God does in fact show favoritism.

 

[bling]

Time and time again in the epistles of Paul, he tells us that men are dead in trespasses and sin, estranged from God, and completely helpless. All men, in their natural state, are rebels against God; and though they may do many things which the law of God requires, nothing is done with reference to God and His law (Psalm 51:5, Romans 3:10-12). This state is the basis and foundation of the system of redemption found in the Scriptures. Until a man is brought to understand this nature, he will never seek help where alone it is to be found (1 Cor 2:14).

All of mankind lost communion with God, and are under His wrath and curse, but out of His mere good pleasure he has selected some to know freedom of that curse. By His mercy and in infinite wisdom, He designed the evangelical proclamations of men, either by works or speech or by other means, to not only give new eyes to some but to also harden the hearts of others (1 Cor 1:18, Roman 11:7). In that moment of time, set aside by God in eternity, a man realizes his nature, and gladly accepts the means in which he is to be redeemed (2 Thess 2:13, Ezekk 36:26). Through God's instruments He does bring salvation to those whom He chose and there are some who shall remain condemned.

These events are not in the Divine mind as they are in ours by a succession of acts, one after another, but that by one single act God has at once ordained all these things. All of God's decrees are eternal, and therefore came at the moment of creation. And since no one can deny that no person has any claim on God's grace, it's understood that all are unworthy. And if the decree dealt simply with innocent men, it could be understood as being unjust. The already condemned world needs no further condemnation, it needs saving. When all deserve death, it is a marvel of pure grace that any should receive the unmerited gift of everlasting life (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

The truth of salvation is a strong topic for debate. There are some who say that God's will can be resisted, and others that claim all will be saved. If all are to be saved, why are there so many who reject Him? If He willed that none should perish, He would surely give to all men those effectual means of salvation without which it cannot be had, but experience and Scriptures prove that He does not (Rom 9:17, Exodus 9:16, Deut 2:30, Joshua 11:20). There are some that say it is because of a man's faith that he is saved. If it were based on faith then God has been careful to choose only those whom He foresees will elect themselves. Some would say that there are none chosen for one purpose over the other, like an earthly father showing favoritism to his children. Yet God gives different things to different people: whether they're born in wealth, have abilities to do certain work, or have a sense of humor; and let us not forget that God loved Jacob, but also hated Esau. Scriptures shows time and time again that God does in fact show favoritism.

First off you say: “He does bring salvation to those whom He chose and there are some who shall remain condemned.”

Since God (our Father) could just as easily provide what is needed for salvation to everyone, how can the Father leave some children He could save to be condemned? What would you think of such an earthly father?

Secondly you say: “God gives different things to different people” which is “OK” as long as those different “things” do not result in affecting the outcome of what is really significant (a person’s salvation). We could take the example of a rich man and Lazarus type, so who is better off in what really matters? Lazarus provides the rich man with the very best opportunity to experience Godly type Love, yet the rich man never ceases the opportunity, but Lazarus fulfilled his objective and the rich man did not.

“Jacob and Esau” comes up a lot, but when deity uses the word “hate”, it does not mean you cannot still “love” the person you are to hate like Luke 14:26 “If any one comes to me and does not hate his own father and mother and wife and children and brothers and sisters, yes, and even his own life, he cannot be my disciple.

God could work through Jacob’s problems, but could not work through Esau’s problems, which God hated, but does not mean Esau personally was lost?

In the context of Romans 9 Paul is addressing gentiles and Jews, so we know it is not about salvation since some Jews and some Gentiles are saved, but the gentile would think God prepared the Jews better than them for living the Christian life, since the Jews were telling them they needed circumcision, keep the Sabbath and eat the Kocher foods.

Paul, in Ro. 9, says God is perfectly just with people (which would include being fair) and spends chp. 9-11 explaining something that does not look fair to actually be fair.

You need to get the whole context and not just a verse.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

If He willed that none should perish

Are you negating the Scripture to substantiate a point. The Scripture says that God is not willing for any to perish 2 Peter 3:9.

Can a person resist God's Will? You say no but what does the Scripture say Matthew 7:21? If a man can do the will of God can it not be that he can also resist?

Yes, the potter does have a say, but why would a potter destroy a perfect vessel? Is it not the vessel that resists his work that he destroys? Or if it has become useless he destroys it.

You should not make that which is metaphorical out to be actual. If you look at a picture of a shirt you would say, that is a shirt; and you would be right, but you cannot put the picture on. God depicted as a potter is like the picture of a shirt.

 

[GillDouglas]

Yes, the potter does have a say, but why would a potter destroy a perfect vessel? Is it not the vessel that resists his work that he destroys? Or if it has become useless he destroys it.

A vessel has little choice over its purpose, and it is the right of the potter to determine how it is to be used to demonstrate the potter's graciousness and power. If you believe that God is the Author of this world, creating all things and having the perfect plan for all things, they you must also believe each individual has a purpose in demonstrating His mercy and wrath. If He willed that none should perish, it would surely happen but it would not be because of anything we did or even deserve. The emphasis is often placed too regularly on the pot, and not the potter who deserves all credit.

 

[GillDouglas]

Are you negating the Scripture to substantiate a point. The Scripture says that God is not willing for any to perish 2 Peter 3:9.

Can a person resist God's Will? You say no but what does the Scripture say Matthew 7:21? If a man can do the will of God can it not be that he can also resist?

Yes, the potter does have a say, but why would a potter destroy a perfect vessel? Is it not the vessel that resists his work that he destroys? Or if it has become useless he destroys it.

You should not make that which is metaphorical out to be actual. If you look at a picture of a shirt you would say, that is a shirt; and you would be right, but you cannot put the picture on. God depicted as a potter is like the picture of a shirt.

While the value of the atonement was sufficient to save all mankind, it was efficient to save only the elect. Salvation of every man is objectively possible; yet because of subjective difficulties, mainly the account of the sinner's own inability either to see or appreciate the things God, it is not possible. Only those who are chosen, regenerated and sanctified by the Holy Spirit, are saved.

When the atonement is made universal its inherent value is destroyed. If it is applied to all men, and if some are lost (as is obvious), the conclusion is that it makes salvation objectively possible for all but that it does not actually save anybody. We have the choice then of deciding if the atonement has high value, or wide extension. Both of these ideas limit the ability of the atonement, one limits the extent and the other limits the power. One view is like a narrow bridge which covers the entire river, and the other is a great wide bridge that only goes half-way across.

If the benefits of the atonement are universal and unlimited then that means God no longer demands perfect obedience as He did Adam and He offers salvation on lower terms. However, Divine justice demands that the sinner shall be punished, either in himself or by substitute and we both would agree that Christ acted in a strictly substitutionary way for His people. If the universal view is true, it is possible that all of Christ's suffering to save sinners might not save a single one if all men choose to exercise their right of refusing His grace. God himself might be utterly defeated in His work of redemption.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

When the atonement is made universal its inherent value is destroyed. If it is applied to all men, and if some are lost (as is obvious), the conclusion is that it makes salvation objectively possible for all but that it does not actually save anybody. We have the choice then of deciding if the atonement has high value, or wide extension. Both of these ideas limit the ability of the atonement, one limits the extent and the other limits the power. One view is like a narrow bridge which covers the entire river, and the other is a great wide bridge that only goes half-way across.

I fail to follow this flawed logic, why should its inherent value be lost? The atonement is universal, the Scripture says Christ died for all.

If the benefits of the atonement are universal and unlimited then that means God no longer demands perfect obedience as He did Adam and He offers salvation on lower terms.

How did you come to that conclusion? You have actually missed the point of substitutionary atonement. Christ died for sins, not for perfect obedience. Adam's sin was atoned for, else we would not exist. God does not demand perfect obedience, he demands faith. We obey God by faith and not by the works of the law, which the Scripture plainly says will save no one. The just shall live by faith. The benefits of salvation are not only universal they are timeless and eternal.

If the universal view is true, it is possible that all of Christ's suffering to save sinners might not save a single one if all men choose to exercise their right of refusing His grace. God himself might be utterly defeated in His work of redemption.

Once again your conclusion is questionable. While it is possible it is unlikely because of the Father's promise of the Holy Spirit. I think it is historically evident that this statement is untrue since there have been those who have believed in every age. You mistake man's freedom to choose as free license to go whichever way you want and still be saved. That will never be. The Scripture makes it abundantly clear that only faith in Jesus leads to eternal life. God gives man the part to believe but maintains the part to empower. God's grace is not weakened in me because I believed but it is empowered through it. Have a look at the history of Israel. God told them, you are my people and yet they rebelled. If God is arbitrary as you suggest how did Israel rebel?

 

[GillDouglas]

I fail to follow this flawed logic, why should its inherent value be lost? The atonement is universal, the Scripture says Christ died for all.

Mankind in general may have received some benefits from Christ's atonement. The preaching of the Gospel has introduced many uplifting moral influences into the world and the work Christ completed restrains many evil influences. However, the death of Christ has special reference to the elect in that it was effectual for their salvation, and that the effects which are produced in others are only incidental to this one great purpose. Without the effectual calling of the Holy Spirit transforming the spiritual dead into the spiritual living, the atonement serves no effect on that soul other than temporal blessings shared by all.

How did you come to that conclusion? You have actually missed the point of substitutionary atonement. Christ died for sins, not for perfect obedience. Adam's sin was atoned for, else we would not exist. God does not demand perfect obedience, he demands faith. We obey God by faith and not by the works of the law, which the Scripture plainly says will save no one. The just shall live by faith. The benefits of salvation are not only universal they are timeless and eternal.

Because if you say that Christ died for all, and not everyone is saved (which we know some have not, and some will not) you have limited the power of the atonement. If His death was intended to save all men, then we must say that God was either unable or unwilling to carry out His plans. But since the work of God is always efficient, those for whom atonement was made and those who are actually saved are one in the same.

Once again your conclusion is questionable. While it is possible it is unlikely because of the Father's promise of the Holy Spirit. I think it is historically evident that this statement is untrue since there have been those who have believed in every age. You mistake man's freedom to choose as free license to go whichever way you want and still be saved. That will never be. The Scripture makes it abundantly clear that only faith in Jesus leads to eternal life. God gives man the part to believe but maintains the part to empower. God's grace is not weakened in me because I believed but it is empowered through it. Have a look at the history of Israel. God told them, you are my people and yet they rebelled. If God is arbitrary as you suggest how did Israel rebel?

In Genesis we read that God "put enmity" between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent. These are each two parts of the human race. We can say that the seed of the serpent means those who are of the Devil, who we would call the non-elect and the others we can assume are Christ's people. Christ's people are His bride, His Church whom the Father gave to Him. Universal salvation and God's sentence on the serpent can never go together.

If you look back to the great days of atonement in ancient Israel, the high priest offered sacrifices for the sins of the twelve tribes, interceding for them and only them. There is a parallel between the high priest of old, and our high priest Jesus Christ. Christ interceded not for the world, but for His people.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

Because if you say that Christ died for all, and not everyone is saved (which we know some have not, and some will not) you have limited the power of the atonement. If His death was intended to save all men, then we must say that God was either unable or unwilling to carry out His plans. But since the work of God is always efficient, those for whom atonement was made and those who are actually saved are one in the same.

Can you see why this is illogical to me? Why must I conclude that God has failed if not all are saved? How does it limit the power of the atonement? Christ's sacrifice is able to save all, therefore the limit is not on God's side. How does an intent become a plan? On what basis do you say the work of God is always efficient?

You say, God's Plan: to save the elect.

I say, God's Plan: To make salvation available to all so that they might choose to be saved and to give those who so choose life eternal.

If I choose your conclusion then I have limited God by his own will. He does not need to use his limitless power since he has decided who he will save and who not. That is a limited atonement.

However with my conclusion God prepares for anything. It is not the power that is limited but the availability since it is only available to those who believe. It is still the will of God to save and it is the will of God to save even the weakest vessel. It appears to me that it would take more power to do this than to choose arbitrarily.

I feel it is actually you who have limited the power of the atonement. The argument "some are and some are not or some will and some will not" has very little to do with the effects on God's power. It was, after all, God's choice on how he would do it.

It has worked that way since the beginning of time.

The flaw in the serpent's plan was that he thought God was arbitrary and believed that he would destroy mankind with his lies since God could not change. He thought people were as good as dead once they ate the fruit but God already had a way of salvation. God destroyed the work of the enemy through Christ and now salvation is available to all who will believe. Since Adam sinned willfully, why not also offer salvation by faith rather than by his arbitrary will?

God said, "You cannot save yourself so I will do it. I will give you everything you need. All you need to do is accept it and put it to use."

I do not see how this limits the power of God simply because I may choose to neglect what he has given. That is my failing not God's.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

If you look back to the great days of atonement in ancient Israel, the high priest offered sacrifices for the sins of the twelve tribes, interceding for them and only them. There is a parallel between the high priest of old, and our high priest Jesus Christ. Christ interceded not for the world, but for His people.

But if you have a look at the Law and the History of Israel a gentile could become a Jew by certain rites and would then be included in one of the 12 tribes with the high priest offering sacrifices for them as well. When the Scripture says Christ died for all it must mean that he interceded for all. We know he did because on the cross he prayed, Father forgive them for they know not what they do. That is petition, since it is a request, and intercession because it was prayed for others and not himself.

 

[Llewelyn Stevenson]

However, the death of Christ has special reference to the elect in that it was effectual for their salvation, and that the effects which are produced in others are only incidental to this one great purpose.

The death of Christ is effectual to all who will and do believe. It is ineffectual in all who will not.

 

[GillDouglas]

I say, God's Plan: To make salvation available to all so that they might choose to be saved and to give those who so choose life eternal.

The spiritually dead do not choose to be saved. God chooses and by the Holy Spirit prepares that soul to turn towards Him. Until then the unregenerate natural man will continue to rebel and be at war with God.

If I choose your conclusion then I have limited God by his own will. He does not need to use his limitless power since he has decided who he will save and who not. That is a limited atonement.

The only limit I place on the atonement is the extent, it is not meant for those who will not be saved. You limit its power in saying its meant for all, yet not all are saved.

It has worked that way since the beginning of time.

Then why have some been lost?

The flaw in the serpent's plan was that he thought God was arbitrary and believed that he would destroy mankind with his lies since God could not change. He thought people were as good as dead once they ate the fruit but God already had a way of salvation. God destroyed the work of the enemy through Christ and now salvation is available to all who will believe. Since Adam sinned willfully, why not also offer salvation by faith rather than by his arbitrary will?

Man has already been tested in Adam, and we know he failed. God wouldn't set us up for failure a second time by leaving salvation up to men's faith. Salvation comes to man by the grace of God and it is kept by Him, not by man's ability.

God said, "You cannot save yourself so I will do it. I will give you everything you need. All you need to do is accept it and put it to use."

No. This is incorrect. Again you're putting the responsibility on man's ability to do something that pleases God. Only the saving works of Christ pleases Him, all of our 'good' works are miraculous sin.

I do not see how this limits the power of God simply because I may choose to neglect what he has given. That is my failing not God's.

My friend if you are His, He will not fail you. Your salvation does not rest on our shoulders, but on God to call us to Him and change our nature. The change is irresistible and permanent! We have much to be thankful for.

 

[GillDouglas]

The death of Christ is effectual to all who will and do believe. It is ineffectual in all who will not.

ef·fec·tu·al - adjective
(typically of something inanimate or abstract) successful in producing a desired or intended result; effective.
What is the intended result of the death of Christ? He died for men's sins, paying the debt owed to God for the disobedience of men so that they may have communion with God and live with Him forever. If you believe that this was desired or intended for all men, then it was NOT effective. If you believe as I do, that it was desired or intended for those whom He called, the elect, then it WAS effective.

 

[Job8]

Let's start out by saying that the offer of eternal life has nothing whatsoever to do with the Potter's rights. It has everything to do with the Cross of Christ and His shed blood. When Jesus was on the Cross, He was not exercising His rights and prerogatives as the sovereign Lord God Almighty. Instead, He was made Sin for us (the One who knew no sin). So let's set aside any reference to "the Potter's rights".

This matter has been hashed and rehashed and the bottom line is that those who believe that election is for salvation will never change their mistaken views, and those who reject that doctrine will not change their views either.

Time and time again in the epistles of Paul, he tells us that men are dead in trespasses and sin, estranged from God, and completely helpless.

To be dead in trespasses and sins does not mean what you think it does. Sinners can and will respond to the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation) under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts chapter 2 and the whole book of Acts. Repentance comes first, the gift of the Holy Spirit comes next. And the New Birth can only follow the gift of the Holy Spirit.

All men, in their natural state, are rebels against God; and though they may do many things which the law of God requires, nothing is done with reference to God and His law (Psalm 51:5, Romans 3:10-12).

And that is why they must be convicted by the Holy Spirit to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. See Acts 16:30,31.

This state is the basis and foundation of the system of redemption found in the Scriptures. Until a man is brought to understand this nature, he will never seek help where alone it is to be found (1 Cor 2:14).

And that is why the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation.

All of mankind lost communion with God, and are under His wrath and curse, but out of His mere good pleasure he has selected some to know freedom of that curse.

Why would He select only "some" when Christ died for the sins of the world, and the offer of eternal life is to ALL MEN? Here begins the path to false doctrine.

By His mercy and in infinite wisdom, He designed the evangelical proclamations of men, either by works or speech or by other means, to not only give new eyes to some but to also harden the hearts of others (1 Cor 1:18, Roman 11:7).

God hardens the hearts of those who firstly harden their own hearts against the Gospel and against Christ. See Hebrews 3:7-4:13, where God says over and over again, "Today, if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS". So God first pleads with men to not harden their hearts, but when they refuse this plea, He then hardens their hearts.

In that moment of time, set aside by God in eternity, a man realizes his nature, and gladly accepts the means in which he is to be redeemed (2 Thess 2:13, Ezekk 36:26). Through God's instruments He does bring salvation to those whom He chose and there are some who shall remain condemned.

Once again false doctrine. God does NOT choose some for salvation and others for damnation. That totally contradicts His own Word and His own Gospel. So the only thing to do with false doctrine is to repent of it and reject it altogether.

These events are not in the Divine mind as they are in ours by a succession of acts, one after another, but that by one single act God has at once ordained all these things. All of God's decrees are eternal, and therefore came at the moment of creation.

And one of God's decrees is that He now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

And since no one can deny that no person has any claim on God's grace, it's understood that all are unworthy. And if the decree dealt simply with innocent men, it could be understood as being unjust. The already condemned world needs no further condemnation, it needs saving. When all deserve death, it is a marvel of pure grace that any should receive the unmerited gift of everlasting life (2 Peter 2:4, Jude 6).

There is absolutely no question that the gift of eternal life is PURELY BY GOD'S GRACE. The important thing for you to remember is that this gift is offered freely to WHOSOEVER WILL (Rev 22:17).

 

[GillDouglas]

So let's set aside any reference to "the Potter's rights".

Sure, let's disregard any reference to the soverignty of God to make your point.

This matter has been hashed and rehashed and the bottom line is that those who believe that election is for salvation will never change their mistaken views, and those who reject that doctrine will not change their views either.

Yup.

To be dead in trespasses and sins does not mean what you think it does. Sinners can and will respond to the Gospel (the power of God unto salvation) under the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Read and study Acts chapter 2 and the whole book of Acts. Repentance comes first, the gift of the Holy Spirit comes next. And the New Birth can only follow the gift of the Holy Spirit.

You contradict yourself. The work on the soul by the Holy Spirit comes before the response, as you say under the conviction of it.

And that is why they must be convicted by the Holy Spirit to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. See Acts 16:30,31.

You agree with your point that you contradicted above. God intercedes on the soul of the unregenerate man, the soul is forever changed from spiritually dead to spiritually alive.

And that is why the Gospel is the POWER OF GOD unto salvation.

The Gospel means nothing to the spiritually dead, it falls on deaf ears. God may at times use the preaching/reading of the Gospel as the instrument for which He changes the man's nature.

Why would He select only "some" when Christ died for the sins of the world, and the offer of eternal life is to ALL MEN? Here begins the path to false doctrine.

You must hate reading Paul's epistle to the church of Rome then.

God hardens the hearts of those who firstly harden their own hearts against the Gospel and against Christ. See Hebrews 3:7-4:13, where God says over and over again, "Today, if ye will hear His voice, HARDEN NOT YOUR HEARTS". So God first pleads with men to not harden their hearts, but when they refuse this plea, He then hardens their hearts.

Oh so God's power is secondary to man's? That's strange, where did you read that one?

Once again false doctrine. God does NOT choose some for salvation and others for damnation. That totally contradicts His own Word and His own Gospel. So the only thing to do with false doctrine is to repent of it and reject it altogether.

Will some perish? Yes, as it is written in Rev 20:15, Matt 25:46, 2 Thess 1:9 and more. But I thought Christ died for all, why wouldn't all be saved? It would seem the atonement is not powerful enough to save everyone. Well that's because it's not meant for everyone.

And one of God's decrees is that He now commands ALL MEN EVERYWHERE to repent (Acts 17:30).

Why don't all men everywhere repent then? Maybe He meant some people from every tribe, every tongue and every nation?

There is absolutely no question that the gift of eternal life is PURELY BY GOD'S GRACE. The important thing for you to remember is that this gift is offered freely to WHOSOEVER WILL (Rev 22:17).

Who was the angel speaking of when he said to John in Rev 22:8 - “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”? Was he referring to everyone, or a specific group?

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

First off you say: “He does bring salvation to those whom He chose and there are some who shall remain condemned.”

Since God (our Father) could just as easily provide what is needed for salvation to everyone, how can the Father leave some children He could save to be condemned?

Gods glory is more important then mans's salvation .

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens
Romans 9


If God gets glory from hardening Pharoahs heart,, then that glory is more important then Pharoahs salvation.

 

[bling]

Gods glory is more important then mans's salvation ..

God’s “glory” is found virtually exclusively in His Love which includes man’s salvation.

14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? Certainly not! 15 For He says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion.”[f] 16 So then it is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but of God who shows mercy. 17 For the Scripture says to the Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I may show My power in you, and that My name may be declared in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore He has mercy on whom He wills, and whom He wills He hardens
Romans 9


If God gets glory from hardening Pharoahs heart,, then that glory is more important then Pharoahs salvation.

As far as Romans 9 this is what I have written as an introduction before:


Verses are pulled out of Romans 9 to support the idea God makes people a particular way so He will save them and makes others a particular way so they will be eternally lost. That is not what is being conveyed by these particular verses.


To best interpret any verse good hermeneutics would have you first understand the context, context, context and context. Who is writing, to whom is he writing, why, where, when is he writing. The questions for Romans 9 would include:



Paul uses two teaching methods taught in secular philosophy classes and Romans is used even in secular classes as the best example of these methods. Paul does an excellent job of building one premise on the previous premises to develop his final conclusions. Paul uses an ancient form of rhetoric known as diatribe (imaginary debate) asking questions and giving a strong “By no means” and then goes on to explain “why not”. These “questions or comments” are given by an “imaginary” student making it more a dialog with the readers (students) and not just a “sermon”.


The main question in Romans 9 Paul addresses is God being fair or just Rms. 9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all!

Would the Jewish Christian have a problem with being considered the special group with a special purpose from their birth or would it be the Gentile Christians that saw themselves like Esau and Ismael?


That is what is at issue and Paul will explain over the rest of Romans 9-11.


Paul is specific with the issue Rms. 9: 19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?”


Who is the “one of you” is this Jewish Christian (elect) or Gentile Christian (elect) or is this “non-elect” individual (this “letter” is not being written to non-Christians)?


Can Jews say they cannot be blamed for failing in their honored position or would it be the Gentiles that would say they cannot be blamed since they were not in the honored position?


Is it really significant in what really counts, if you are born a gentile or Jew in the first century in Rome?

The Gentiles might have felt like second class children of God compared to the “chosen” Jews, but Paul spends lots of words in Ro. 9-11 saying that even though the Jews were made for a special purpose, lots of them remain lost, so it is really no better being a Jew prior to conversion.

The Jews were created in a special honorable position that would bring forth the Messiah and everyone else was common in comparison.


How do we know Paul is specifically addressing the Jew/Gentile issue? Rms. 9: 30 What then shall we say? That the Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have obtained it, a righteousness that is by faith; 31 but the people of Israel, who pursued the law as the way of righteousness, have not attained their goal. 32 Why not? Because they pursued it not by faith but as if it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone.


Paul is showing from the position of being made “common” vessels by God the Gentiles had an advantage over the born Israelites (vessels of honor) that had the Law, since the Law became a stumbling stone to them. They both needed faith to rely on God’s Love to forgive them.


We could get into a long discussion of “ honorable and dishonorable vessels” which some equate the dishonorable as being like “clay pigeons” made for destruction, but that is not the best translation of these words. Paul uses the same words conveying the same idea in 2 Tim. 2: 20 In a large house there are articles not only of gold and silver, but also of wood and clay; some are for special purposes and some for common use. 21 Those who cleanse themselves from the latter will be instruments for special purposes, made holy, useful to the Master and prepared to do any good work.


In Tim. Paul talks about these same “dishonorable vessels” in a rich person’s house (definitely not clay pigeons) and these dishonorable vessels (common vessels) can be made “holy” (which fits the Gentiles being made holy).

All clay vessels become damaged over time and fit for destruction, but that is not the way the potter made them.

The Potter has to remake the honorable (special purpose) or dishonorable (common objective) vessels that have become damaged as only God the Potter can.

Without going into the details of Romans 9-11 we conclude with this diatribe question: Romans 11: 11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!


The common vessels (gentiles) and the vessels of honor (Jews) are equal individually in what is really significant when it comes to salvation, so God is not being unjust or unfair with either group.


If there is still a question about who is being addressed in this section of Rms. 9-11, Paul tells us: Rms. 11: 13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them.

 

[Reformed Lutheran]

God’s “glory” is found virtually exclusively in His Love which includes man’s salvation.

I think that's a bit of a humanistic view of God's glory.

God is not glorious because he saves man (ie, salvation being the cause of Gods glory),, rather man is saved by a Glorious God

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17

 

[bling]

I think that's a bit of a humanistic view of God's glory.

God is not glorious because he saves man (ie, salvation being the cause of Gods glory),, rather man is saved by a Glorious God

And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17

You take the quote from Christ who is going to the cross for the salvation of men and that will be Christ's glory. God always intended prior to the beginning of time to save humans and that was and is God's glory.

 

[nobdysfool]

You take the quote from Christ who is going to the cross for the salvation of men and that will be Christ's glory. God always intended prior to the beginning of time to save humans and that was and is God's glory.

So, in essence you're saying that God's Glory is all about us. Really?

Man neither adds to, or detracts from God's Glory. He is Glorious, for no other reason than He is God. He is Glorious. He is Righteous. He is Holy, or more specifically, Thrice Holy (Holy Holy Holy). He is Love. He is Omniscient. He is Omnipresent. He is Omnipotent. He is Alpha and Omega. He is all of those attributes, and more, all in perfect harmony, none taking precedence over any other.

 

[GillDouglas]

So, in essence you're saying that God's Glory is all about us. Really?

Man neither adds to, or detracts from God's Glory. He is Glorious, for no other reason than He is God. He is Glorious. He is Righteous. He is Holy, or more specifically, Thrice Holy (Holy Holy Holy). He is Love. He is Omniscient. He is Omnipresent. He is Omnipotent. He is Alpha and Omega. He is all of those attributes, and more, all in perfect harmony, none taking precedence over any other.

Amen. He was as such before He created all of this and all of us.