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aeroz19 said:Is this a recording?
COAS said:So, a while back on a thread related to this topic, I posted a question (on an existing thread) that never got any response. I'll try again, though.
To the Christians who are in favor of "under God" remaining in the Pledge as is:
If, for whatever reason, a majority of the country were to convert to, say, Islam, overnight... would you be OK with the pledge being changed to "one nation, under Allah...
Majority rules? Ceremonial deism? Take your pick... yea or nay, would this be "harmless" and unimportant to you if your child was suddenly expected to recite this version of the pledge?
*hoping that the participants in this thread won't wimp out and refuse to answer like before*
God and Allah are the same. I used to not believe this, but after reading verses from the Quran, I saw that the Quran was indeed referencing the same God as described in the Bible.COAS said:So, a while back on a thread related to this topic, I posted a question (on an existing thread) that never got any response. I'll try again, though.
To the Christians who are in favor of "under God" remaining in the Pledge as is:
If, for whatever reason, a majority of the country were to convert to, say, Islam, overnight... would you be OK with the pledge being changed to "one nation, under Allah...
Majority rules? Ceremonial deism? Take your pick... yea or nay, would this be "harmless" and unimportant to you if your child was suddenly expected to recite this version of the pledge?
*hoping that the participants in this thread won't wimp out and refuse to answer like before*
It's not narrowly a vow to a government; it's a vow to people who have a common heritage, language, culture, etc., who are all under the same government.renegade pariah said:......Allah or God there is no difference. The real question is weither the pledge is inclusive for those who are atheist, which it isn't. Weither children should be indoctrinated to make vows about issues they do not yet understand is another question. Still yet a further question is weither a vow to a government should be made at all.
Actually, I think appointing judges is chaos. These judges know they're in for life and so they have a much greater degree of freedom and security; they can and do get away with more.Philosoft said:Chaos:
1) Moore campaigns for the office of Chief Justice. One of his slogans is "The Ten Commandments Judge," referencing the plaque he used to hang in his courtroom - which was deemed constitutional.
2) Moore is elected Chief Justice.
3) Moore foregoes the plaque for a two-ton granite monument, which naturally must be placed front-and-center in the rotunda in the middle of the night.
Presumably, you know the rest.
See there? Chaos. Moore's public recognition came almost entirely from his battle to hang his plaque. Would he have been a good, fair Chief Justice? Maybe. Who knows? Ensuring fair, speedy trials quickly became secondary to politicizing his religion - and not just his religion, mind you, but a not-so-subtle reminder that his God was a pretty angry, demanding, wrathful god once upon a time.
So, in conclusion, electing justices at pretty much any level is a bad idea.
aeroz19 said:My point is that aethists and other non-Christians should allow the rest of us Americans to enjoy our culture and get in touch with our roots.
aeroz19 said:It's not narrowly a vow to a government; it's a vow to people who have a common heritage, language, culture, etc., who are all under the same government.
You are clearly not referring to the US Pledge of Allegiance here. I've done my homework, and I discovered that Francis Bellamy, author of the pledge, intended it to be entirely a "vow to a government," specifically a "republic" with a strong federal core. Bellamy was a socialist and was deeply troubled by the aftermath of the Civil War and the notion of state secession that still lingered in the minds of many.aeroz19 said:It's not narrowly a vow to a government; it's a vow to people who have a common heritage, language, culture, etc., who are all under the same government.
aeroz19 said:Actually, I think appointing judges is chaos. These judges know they're in for life and so they have a much greater degree of freedom and security; they can and do get away with more.
The only chaotic thing that happened with Justice Ray Moore was how he got thrown out by the religiously intolerant.
I've been around lawyers my entire life and the one procedural thing they all agree on is that judges - right down to county and circuit level - should be appointed.aeroz19 said:Actually, I think appointing judges is chaos. These judges know they're in for life and so they have a much greater degree of freedom and security; they can and do get away with more.
I don't know who Ray Moore is, but you nicely illustrate my point about Roy Moore. There should never be a public dust-up about the appropriateness of an overtly religious monument erected by a Chief Justice, because candidates who run on the platform "The Ten Commandments Judge" wouldn't be given a second look by a legislative committee.The only chaotic thing that happened with Justice Ray Moore was how he got thrown out by the religiously intolerant.
..........."and to the Republic for which it stands", certainly is the government.aeroz19 said:It's not narrowly a vow to a government; it's a vow to people who have a common heritage, language, culture, etc., who are all under the same government.
renegade pariah said:......Allah or God there is no difference. The real question is weither the pledge is inclusive for those who are atheist, which it isn't. Weither children should be indoctrinated to make vows about issues they do not yet understand is another question. Still yet a further question is weither a vow to a government should be made at all.
WarSong said:A vow to the government? If you are going to enjoy the freedoms that country has to offer, then their should be some obligation.
It seems a little silly to me that people would want the good things in life and not have to earn them.
It isnt telling you what to believe on anything. That is the one of the biggest myths out there. That is taking things way out of proportion. Youre not forced to say it.crazyfingers said:Why would I pledge to a government that is trying to tell me what to believe on issues of religion. No chance.
ps139 said:It isnt telling you what to believe on anything. That is the one of the biggest myths out there. That is taking things way out of proportion. Youre not forced to say it.
Since when has any group of people living in the United States shared anything completely in common? If anything was shared, it was that many groups left opression in Europe to come to America to spread their "love" with the natives here by, oh, killing them off.aeroz19 said:It's not narrowly a vow to a government; it's a vow to people who have a common heritage, language, culture, etc., who are all under the same government.
If I lived in a country where the pledge said "One nation, under Zoltar the bluish green master of the planets," I wouldnt say it because I dont believe it. And it wouldnt matter to me because I would think it is a stupid and ridiculous idea. There is no establishment of a state religion here and that is all the law rests on. I've talked to atheists who feel the exact same way, they think this is utterly ridiculous that people are complaining about it, when there are much more worthy causes to give attention to.crazyfingers said:It doesn't matter if I'm not forced to say it. The government is trying to tell me that a god exists and that is NONE OF THEIR BESINESS. It is doubly NONE OF THEIR BUSINESS to tell my children that a god exits.
That would be stupid. It would be adding a negative. Why not then add everything that we are not?I suppose that if the pledge said, "One nation under NO GOD" you'd think that would be perfectly OK?
ps139 said:There is no establishment of a state religion here and that is all the law rests on.
I've talked to atheists who feel the exact same way,
That would be stupid. It would be adding a negative. Why not then add everything that we are not?
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